The Tank Debate Thread

[jvuc]

just remember what happens

and if what happens is the same thing that always happens? for like the past 18 years? please just remember

because we need more fans to figure this treadmilling scam out

Yup, 13 loto picks in 18 years and nothing to show for it.

Time to start winning games and stop playing for the lotto every year.

Of those 13 years, I'd say 9-10 of them we were actually trying to swing for the playoffs with mediocre talent (just as we are now). And of those remaining 4-5 legit tank years, we ended up with Bosh/Carter/Jonas and one unsuccessful player in Bargnani, think of the bigger picture

Instead of tank vs no tank debate, I think there is more value in understanding why the Raptors lost Bosh and Carter who would have been nice franchise pieces. This is important so we don't repeat the process with JV.

Also Bargs + Bosh was the "ideal" tank blueprint with franchise player + another lotto pick ideal but again, why didn't Bargs not live up to expectations (poor scouting and/or poor developing). Tanking seems to lead to a treadmill of sucking.

[dTox]

Yup, 13 loto picks in 18 years and nothing to show for it.

Time to start winning games and stop playing for the lotto every year.

Of those 13 years, I'd say 9-10 of them we were actually trying to swing for the playoffs with mediocre talent (just as we are now). And of those remaining 4-5 legit tank years, we ended up with Bosh/Carter/Jonas and one unsuccessful player in Bargnani, think of the bigger picture

Also Bargs + Bosh was the "ideal" tank blueprint with franchise player + another lotto pick ideal but again, why didn't Bargs not live up to expectations (poor scouting and/or poor developing). Tanking seems to lead to a treadmill of sucking.

The reason why we lost those said names was in essence because of short sighted moves, and trying to make the playoffs with an inadequate amount of talent. I don't understand how you arrived at that bolded part when we always made an attempt to reach playoffs following a real tank, after Vince we stopped tanking (tanking as in, not getting a pick in 7-11 range), after getting Bosh we haven't had a top 5 pick until Bargnani (and in both cases there were several years in between of trying to reach for playoffs hence we were always in 7-11). Drafting Bargnani when we already had bosh was a terrible plan to begin with: pairing a finesse PF (Bosh) with an even more finesse PF /arguibly a SF in Bargnani (with even more questionable defense who has no business playing C), was doomed for failure from the start. Tanking was not the reason why we had a treadmill of sucking, it was poor short sighted moves, like signing Olajuan, JYD an aging Antonio Davis next to Carter.... surrounding Bosh with a bunch of 30 year old (AP + Garbo + a crappy big man in Bargs) that had a very small window of opportunity.

We finally have another shot with a player who has tremendous upside, let's not make the same attempt yet again with no other stars to place him along side with, and trying to swing for the fences with over paid, above average players.

[Phenomenologist]

If we don't tank for Wiggins this season, we're passing up the most important opportunity this franchise has ever had. Sneaking into the playoffs will be sub-zero comfort.

[jvuc]

Of those 13 years, I'd say 9-10 of them we were actually trying to swing for the playoffs with mediocre talent (just as we are now). And of those remaining 4-5 legit tank years, we ended up with Bosh/Carter/Jonas and one unsuccessful player in Bargnani, think of the bigger picture

Also Bargs + Bosh was the "ideal" tank blueprint with franchise player + another lotto pick ideal but again, why didn't Bargs not live up to expectations (poor scouting and/or poor developing). Tanking seems to lead to a treadmill of sucking.

The reason why we lost those said names was in essence because of short sighted moves, and trying to make the playoffs with an inadequate amount of talent. I don't understand how you arrived at that bolded part when we always made an attempt to reach playoffs following a real tank, after Vince we stopped tanking (tanking as in, not getting a pick in 7-11 range), after getting Bosh we haven't had a top 5 pick until Bargnani (and in both cases there were several years in between of trying to reach for playoffs hence we were always in 7-11). Drafting Bargnani when we already had bosh was a terrible plan to begin with: pairing a finesse PF (Bosh) with an even more finesse PF /arguibly a SF in Bargnani (with even more questionable defense who has no business playing C), was doomed for failure from the start. Tanking was not the reason why we had a treadmill of sucking, it was poor short sighted moves, like signing Olajuan, JYD an aging Antonio Davis next to Carter.... surrounding Bosh with a bunch of 30 year old (AP + Garbo + a crappy big man in Bargs) that had a very small window of opportunity.

We finally have another shot with a player who has tremendous upside, let's not make the same attempt yet again with no other stars to place him along side with, and trying to swing for the fences with over paid, above average players.

I'm not sure I buy this. For example, some would argue that short sighted moves are the reason so few teams get off the 'treadmill' of mediocrity and keep getting mid range picks and occasionally qualify for the playoff. See how that works. The problem like you say is not "tanking" nor is it "upgrading" but bad choices that handcuff the team.

As much as I want Wiggins, I see no plan to "tank" at this point. The only offer we know of was Stuckey + Villa for Gay but that doesn't get us to tank but almost guarantees the Raptors no playoffs instead of a probability of making the playoffs. And gets the team a higher (but not top 10) draft pick. This to me looks like a recipe for the treadmill of mediocrity. Unless people have a better plan to tank and get Wiggins, I say go for the playoffs.

[dTox]

Also Bargs + Bosh was the "ideal" tank blueprint with franchise player + another lotto pick ideal but again, why didn't Bargs not live up to expectations (poor scouting and/or poor developing). Tanking seems to lead to a treadmill of sucking.

The reason why we lost those said names was in essence because of short sighted moves, and trying to make the playoffs with an inadequate amount of talent. I don't understand how you arrived at that bolded part when we always made an attempt to reach playoffs following a real tank, after Vince we stopped tanking (tanking as in, not getting a pick in 7-11 range), after getting Bosh we haven't had a top 5 pick until Bargnani (and in both cases there were several years in between of trying to reach for playoffs hence we were always in 7-11). Drafting Bargnani when we already had bosh was a terrible plan to begin with: pairing a finesse PF (Bosh) with an even more finesse PF /arguibly a SF in Bargnani (with even more questionable defense who has no business playing C), was doomed for failure from the start. Tanking was not the reason why we had a treadmill of sucking, it was poor short sighted moves, like signing Olajuan, JYD an aging Antonio Davis next to Carter.... surrounding Bosh with a bunch of 30 year old (AP + Garbo + a crappy big man in Bargs) that had a very small window of opportunity.

We finally have another shot with a player who has tremendous upside, let's not make the same attempt yet again with no other stars to place him along side with, and trying to swing for the fences with over paid, above average players.

I'm not sure I buy this. For example, some would argue that short sighted moves are the reason so few teams get off the 'treadmill' of mediocrity and keep getting mid range picks and occasionally qualify for the playoff. See how that works. The problem like you say is not "tanking" nor is it "upgrading" but bad choices that handcuff the team.

As much as I want Wiggins, I see no plan to "tank" at this point. The only offer we know of was Stuckey + Villa for Gay but that doesn't get us to tank but almost guarantees the Raptors no playoffs instead of a probability of making the playoffs. And gets the team a higher (but not top 10) draft pick. This to me looks like a recipe for the treadmill of mediocrity. Unless people have a better plan to tank and get Wiggins, I say go for the playoffs.

But you haven't really argued any of the point I made, which would be a decent way to counter the tank moves, saying things like Stuckey + Villa being out there is not relevant, what we know what's actually out there for the next few months are very little known. Just like Bargs to NYC package wasn't even in the rumor blogs until the night before the trade was agreed upon. Not everything has to be black and white, its not like tankers are saying throw away Lowry + Gay for anything, we want a package that would lead us to a smart rebuild, like picks + young players with high upside, or players that can better fit the team. Last year Lowry was traded for a 13th pick, this was following returning from a nasty injury that made him miss half the season, there is no doubt that we can net something of that equal but the key is being patient, not swinging trades for the sake of it like our previous GM had done. I'm confident Masai can get this done, he's patient, smart and generally wins in almost all of his trades. Swinging for the playoffs again with Jonas + over paid/above average players in Demar + Gay is incredibly short sighted, especially because we may lose the latter in free agency unless we overpay the crap out of him.

[DatBoiCapspace]

Of those 13 years, I'd say 9-10 of them we were actually trying to swing for the playoffs with mediocre talent (just as we are now). And of those remaining 4-5 legit tank years, we ended up with Bosh/Carter/Jonas and one unsuccessful player in Bargnani, think of the bigger picture

Also Bargs + Bosh was the "ideal" tank blueprint with franchise player + another lotto pick ideal but again, why didn't Bargs not live up to expectations (poor scouting and/or poor developing). Tanking seems to lead to a treadmill of sucking.

The reason why we lost those said names was in essence because of short sighted moves, and trying to make the playoffs with an inadequate amount of talent. I don't understand how you arrived at that bolded part when we always made an attempt to reach playoffs following a real tank, after Vince we stopped tanking (tanking as in, not getting a pick in 7-11 range), after getting Bosh we haven't had a top 5 pick until Bargnani (and in both cases there were several years in between of trying to reach for playoffs hence we were always in 7-11). Drafting Bargnani when we already had bosh was a terrible plan to begin with: pairing a finesse PF (Bosh) with an even more finesse PF /arguibly a SF in Bargnani (with even more questionable defense who has no business playing C), was doomed for failure from the start. Tanking was not the reason why we had a treadmill of sucking, it was poor short sighted moves, like signing Olajuan, JYD an aging Antonio Davis next to Carter.... surrounding Bosh with a bunch of 30 year old (AP + Garbo + a crappy big man in Bargs) that had a very small window of opportunity.

We finally have another shot with a player who has tremendous upside, let's not make the same attempt yet again with no other stars to place him along side with, and trying to swing for the fences with over paid, above average players.

So much revisionist history here. First if we didnt surround Vince with veteran talent he never would have wanted to stay here in the first place. If Vince or any other superstar were such forward thinkers, then he wouldnt have left TO after we drafed Bosh, and instead chose to join up with him. Similar siutation is happening now in Portland with Aldridge. Portland did everything right tank wise by dumping Camby and Wallace to rebuild, but do you think Aldridge is happy that they got Batum and Lillard to build around? Or is he pissed that he cant even make the playoffs?

And we could have drafted Rudy Gay or Lemarcus Aldridge (an even more finesse pf) and it still wouldnt have made a difference to Bosh staying and us contending or not. The fact is 2006 was not a good draft year and there was nothing we could have done about that. Just to put in perspective how ludicrious your criticism of the Raptors is, if we had done literally nothing else different, but had Dwight Howard or Kevin Durant available to draft in 06, we could have had a contender for the last 7 years. There is no ideal tank formula that you are trying to portray, there is simply dumb luck.

This is why relying on the draft does not work, because there are simply not enough great players to go around, and the chances of you even getting a top pick to draft them are not guaranteed either under any circumstance. To even have a greater then 50% chance of landing a top 5 pick, you need to finish with a bottom 3 record. You could dump our entire starting lineup and there will still be competition bad enough to force us out of a bottom 3 record. You just can't count on it.

dtox, can you or any of your pro dump-all-our-players-to-tank-this-summer crowd actually name a team who won a title by following your ideal tank strategy? The answer is of course no, and that alone should tell you why this would be a dumb strategy for Masai to follow.

[witnessraps]

People are lacking patience and want to strictly tank this year. I am of the opinion that we have a GOOD team, and Amir replacing Bargnani's minutes and playing starters minutes is going to be HUGE for our defense. Like I can't emphasize how HUGE that is going to be. All our contracts right now except DeMar, Jonas, Ross expire in 2 years so taking a wait and see approach fits in perfectly with that. If we succeed we can potentially sign some big time free agents soon, if not we can tank in 2014 (or 2015, 2016 while collecting assets)

[jvuc]

Swinging for the playoffs again with Jonas + over paid/above average players in Demar + Gay is incredibly short sighted, especially because we may lose the latter in free agency unless we overpay the crap out of him.

Even if trying for the playoffs with this team is short sighted, I see no better option then our current path. That is, sign up depth players to reasonable contracts to maintain cap flexibility. The raptors can't match the value or fit contracts in the trades that sent 1st round 2014/15 picks (Garnett/Pierce, Jrue Holiday, Doc Rivers or Iguodala). And the other possibility was to trade for young players (Bledsoe etc) requires the Raptors have good role players on tradeable contracts. The hand that Masai has been dealt left him little ability to maneuver.

The Stuckey/Villa for Gay trade is a losing proposition for all but a very few on the board as it only moves the team up a few draft spots and virtually guarantees no playoffs. That is not a great trade off. And again I see no other reasonable strategy at this point, aside from making moves to prepare the teams for playoffs so long as they don't harm cap flexibility in case things transpire against the raptors (slump or injuries). Now if a trade presents itself that has value (returns young players, picks) for one or all of the Raptor veterans then I'd be open to that, just like I"m open to acquiring quality starters on good contracts as well if that makes sense

[Reignman]

If we don't tank for Wiggins this season, we're passing up the most important opportunity this franchise has ever had. Sneaking into the playoffs will be sub-zero comfort.

BS I heard the same garbage in 03 re: LBJ and we have 2 1st round exits to show for it.

its a running joke for those who have followed the NBA for a while. The next draft is always great and there's 10 allstars, etc. But the reality is of the several teams that tank only 1 has the golden horsehoe up their ass every 5-7 years while every ither tanker in that span become perennial laughing stocks.

and I trust my judgement over most in this board and theres no LBJ or KD here and theres definately no 10 allstars in this draft.

[dacrusha]

just remember what happens

and if what happens is the same thing that always happens? for like the past 18 years? please just remember

because we need more fans to figure this treadmilling scam out

Yup, 13 loto picks in 18 years and nothing to show for it.

Time to start winning games and stop playing for the lotto every year.

Of those 13 years, I'd say 9-10 of them we were actually trying to swing for the playoffs with mediocre talent (just as we are now). And of those remaining 4-5 legit tank years, we ended up with Bosh/Carter/Jonas and one unsuccessful player in Bargnani, think of the bigger picture

Bosh and Carter just kept the treadmill going... neither one could even get us something mediocre like a 50-win season.

But, if that's your idea of successful tanks, then no tanks.

[barrist]

The anti tankers have convinced me. This team as is will not only make the playoffs but will likely go to the ECFS. We're built just like the pacers I'm convinced now .....

Jk I'm not delusional


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Ice102]

If we don't tank for Wiggins this season, we're passing up the most important opportunity this franchise has ever had. Sneaking into the playoffs will be sub-zero comfort.

BS I heard the same garbage in 03 re: LBJ and we have 2 1st round exits to show for it.

its a running joke for those who have followed the NBA for a while. The next draft is always great and there's 10 allstars, etc. But the reality is of the several teams that tank only 1 has the golden horsehoe up their ass every 5-7 years while every ither tanker in that span become perennial laughing stocks.

and I trust my judgement over most in this board and theres no LBJ or KD here and theres definately no 10 allstars in this draft.

It is? This draft has been hyped up for two years now. It's being compared to '96 and '03, the best draft years ever arguably. There is a reason for this - it isn't some running joke or based all on disillusioned hype. Wiggins, Parker, Randle, etc. Top talent at the top of the draft. I'll believe the scouts and people who's jobs it is to follow it over my limited knowledge and the limited knowledge of 99% of this board.

-Ice

[dacrusha]

If we don't tank for Wiggins this season, we're passing up the most important opportunity this franchise has ever had. Sneaking into the playoffs will be sub-zero comfort.

BS I heard the same garbage in 03 re: LBJ and we have 2 1st round exits to show for it.

its a running joke for those who have followed the NBA for a while. The next draft is always great and there's 10 allstars, etc. But the reality is of the several teams that tank only 1 has the golden horsehoe up their ass every 5-7 years while every ither tanker in that span become perennial laughing stocks.

and I trust my judgement over most in this board and theres no LBJ or KD here and theres definately no 10 allstars in this draft.

It is? This draft has been hyped up for two years now. It's being compared to '96 and '03, the best draft years ever arguably. There is a reason for this - it isn't some running joke or based all on disillusioned hype. Wiggins, Parker, Randle, etc. Top talent at the top of the draft. I'll believe the scouts and people who's jobs it is to follow it over my limited knowledge and the limited knowledge of 99% of this board.

-Ice

If the 2014 draft is anything like 1996, then we'd be just fine: the two best players from that draft were drafted #13 and #15 overall. And none of the Top 12 from that year led their respective draft teams to a championship. And only one of those players (Ray Allen) was ever part of a championship team... but he was just a third wheel at best.

[blocked]

Mods, can you just keep all posts that mention tanking here in this thread?

[StMikes31]

One injury to our core and this team hits rock bottom. Especially if it's Lowry or Gay.

Our bench is atrocious. Can't believe we have to watch another waste of a year. Makes me sick that Casey is still our coach too, that guy is such a moron

[jvuc]

One injury to our core and this team hits rock bottom. Especially if it's Lowry or Gay.

Our bench is atrocious. Can't believe we have to watch another waste of a year.

I don't disagree we have a poor bench, but I'm not convinced we should tear down the team because maybe someone will get injured. This is a similar problem for many of the NBA teams. But Taking it to the hyperbolic extreme, if James goes down, then the Heat can't win the NBA title so they should tank.

[gerrit4]

That NJ Nets game is a classic example of the pitfalls of playing the moral high ground. They threw the game. We played to win. It cost us Damien Lillard and Harrison Barnes and probably cost BC his job. Of the players in the game, guess how many are still Raptors? Zero. And only two of those players were on the team starting last year. So, MLSE gets to hang their head up high and right now the Nyets are in line to contend for a championship and we're playing wait n' see with a roster that will probably be overhauled at Ujiri's leisure.

We played Ben Uzoh and Soloman Alabi over 40 minutes each - two guys who had career nights in and never played another game in the NBA. That was the worst game I've ever seen. Trust me, the raptors were not trying to win that game, but somebody has to win. We got out-tanked that game, they were just better at sucking.

Please don't tell me that a team playing Soloman Alabi and Ben Uzoh for 40 minutes was trying to win the game. That's just absurd.

No, but they didn't tell them in no way can we win the game. We blew them out. One team had instructions, the other was allowed to just play hard and see what happens. Anyway, minor quibble. In the end it got BC out of town and that was the best possible outcome. My point is you can't hang your hat on karma or culture or anything. Not at the early stages.

That's an assumption - there's no fact to that. And it if was proven, whoever gave the border shouldn't be allowed to be involved in the league. It was the worst game of basketball I have ever seen, and I can't believe people paid to see that mess.

[StMikes31]

One injury to our core and this team hits rock bottom. Especially if it's Lowry or Gay.

Our bench is atrocious. Can't believe we have to watch another waste of a year.

I don't disagree we have a poor bench, but I'm not convinced we should tear down the team because maybe someone will get injured. This is a similar problem for many of the NBA teams. But Taking it to the hyperbolic extreme, if James goes down, then the Heat can't win the NBA title so they should tank.

So you rather overpay for Lowry and extend Gay at the end of the year? I don't especially when the ceiling of this team is a 6-8 seed.

And please don't use the Heat as a counter to our current team.

[jvuc]

One injury to our core and this team hits rock bottom. Especially if it's Lowry or Gay.

Our bench is atrocious. Can't believe we have to watch another waste of a year.

I don't disagree we have a poor bench, but I'm not convinced we should tear down the team because maybe someone will get injured. This is a similar problem for many of the NBA teams. But Taking it to the hyperbolic extreme, if James goes down, then the Heat can't win the NBA title so they should tank.

So you rather overpay for Lowry and extend Gay at the end of the year? I don't especially when the ceiling of this team is a 6-8 seed.

And please don't use the Heat as a counter to our current team.

Where did I write to extend Lowry and Gay?

If there is a proper way to rebuild that makes sense then it is worth exploring but the only option presented is to give away players. Stuckey + Villa for Gay, practically guarantees the raptor don't make the playoffs but only improve the draft position a few spots. That is instead of a play 15 to 18th seed, the raptors draft 12th to 15th. That is the treadmill of medicrity. Terrible trade. And I'd rather take a 15th 18th pick and playoffs then a 12 the 15th and no playoffs.

[StMikes31]

I don't disagree we have a poor bench, but I'm not convinced we should tear down the team because maybe someone will get injured. This is a similar problem for many of the NBA teams. But Taking it to the hyperbolic extreme, if James goes down, then the Heat can't win the NBA title so they should tank.

So you rather overpay for Lowry and extend Gay at the end of the year? I don't especially when the ceiling of this team is a 6-8 seed.

And please don't use the Heat as a counter to our current team.

Where did I write to extend Lowry and Gay?

If there is a proper way to rebuild that makes sense then it is worth exploring but the only option presented is to give away players. Stuckey + Villa for Gay, practically guarantees the raptor don't make the playoffs but only improve the draft position a few spots. That is instead of a play 15 to 18th seed, the raptors draft 12th to 15th. That is the treadmill of medicrity. Terrible trade. And I'd rather take a 15th 18th pick and playoffs then a 12 the 15th and no playoffs.

Well you just mentioned you would like to keep this core and I don't agree since 2 of these guys can walk for nothing. I'm sure there are better offers for Gay out there but Masai is holding out and wants to see what this team can do when we all know we're still a 7-11. That's the frustration I have. And presumably if you trade Gay, you can bet Lowry is gone as well since he's a FA at the end of the year. If both those guys are gone, you can sure as hell bet we'll be at the bottom of the league, let alone the East which means we'll be getting a top 5 pick for this year and probably next which is what we want.