OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread

[Masai4PM]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

[Courtside]

My initial argument was that I would like to see how many hospitalizations represent people who have actual, serious covid symptoms. I was told that all covid hospitalizations meet that criteria, because people aren't admitted for other reasons if they have covid. Here I've shown that to be false. There are people admitted with covid, but not necessarily because of covid. I have proven my point. There may be other examples of this phenomenon.

By the way, you read the data in the document wrong. 4% of them went to ICU, and 1% went on a ventilator. In Ontario, "ICU data include patients in levels 2 and 3 flex, neonatal, pediatric, and adult ICU beds."

I'm struggling to understand why you would be against accurate, precise data on covid hospitalizations. Particularly when at low prevalence, the incidence of false positives with the PCR test is quite high.

I’d love precise data. “I read somewhere that pregnant women make up the biggest group of hospitalized COVID patients” isn’t precise data and if you did read that somewhere that somewhere is very wrong. 27k is a very small number of the people with COVID who have been hospitalized in the US since January. And if we’re talking pregnant women, did you know that “lockdowns” have somehow (nothing causal yet) reduced the number of premature births? So less pregnant women being hospitalized than in a normal year! Fun!

I read the link you posted as saying 27k pregnant women with COVID hospitalized, 6k of which went to the ICU with 5k on a ventilator but those 6/5k numbers were the women they had ICU and ventilator data on, the actual tables cut off on my phone.

I am struggling to understand why you are trying so hard to present COVID as not a serious problem, quite frankly.

27k is over 1% of those hospitalized. That's not a small amount. Under low prevalence, that number would only get much higher.

So all of our policies should be supported by, "Covid is a serious ploblem."? Yes, I want hard data. Without it, restrictions should be out of the question. They've had months to organize and prepare for adequate data collection. We're talking about thousands of hospitalizations. How hard is it to track severity? For that matter, why not the ages of those hospitalized. How about ages and severity of symptoms for all cases? These are BASIC metrics that should be tracked. All I hear from ford and his cronies is that they're sharing all the data. Either he's lying about it being shared, or there's simply no data. For deaths our policy states, "Any case marked "Fatal" is included in the deaths data. Deaths are included whether or not COVID-19 was determined to be a contributing or underlying cause of death as indicated in the iPHIS field “Type of Death”."

You original argument was that pregnant women were counted as hospitalizations whether they had covid or not. mtcan verified through his experience in the field that this was not the case, that you don't get hospitalized for covid, or count as a hospitalization for covid, unless you actually test for covid.

Fairview called you out on a lack of data for your claim, so you produced a study that 27K pregnant women were counted as covid hospitalizations, whether they went to the hospital with symptoms or later tested positive because the hospital tests anyone who needs to be admitted.

Here's the thing, though. There are roughly 4 million births every year in the US, the vast majority being in hospitals. If you round down by 10% for those born at home with midwives or clinics or whatever, that leaves 3.6 million hospital admissions a year for pregnant women to give birth, and that is not even counting for the very large number of pregnant women who go to the hospital for issues along the way, or other health problems, so its probably waaay higher. Even if you don't count any of those visits prior to birthing, it's approx 300K per month or over 2 million since the outbreak became serious in March and cases started to be counted.

So, off the bat, all pregnant women admitted to hospitals DO NOT get counted as covid admissions as you asserted, because the number would be in the millions. Instead, it's like 1-2% of all pregnant women, which is actually a very reasonable number who may have actually contracted covid and been verified to have it based on testing.

If your issue is whether they went to the hospital because of covid symptoms, or because their pregnancy was already taking them to the hospital where they later found out they had covid because of testing, then it's not even the total 27K number you cited and only a part of that. Logic would dictate that MOST of those women went to the hospital because they had symptoms and wanted to be very careful with the health if their unborn child. Some simple decuctive reasoning will tell you that the number of pregnant women who went to hospital for non covid reasons but then found out they had it because of admission testing could only be a portion of that 27K.

And so because of the accuracy of these 27K women being in question in your mind - or probably well under 10K if you consider my previous paragraph - you're going to use that to question all covid hospitalization counting and further use that to question ALL measures being used to mitigate the spread of a virus that has killed over a million people worldwide and over 220K in the US alone where those women were among the millions of counted cases.

Are you for real?

[BBallInSight]

I’d love precise data. “I read somewhere that pregnant women make up the biggest group of hospitalized COVID patients” isn’t precise data and if you did read that somewhere that somewhere is very wrong. 27k is a very small number of the people with COVID who have been hospitalized in the US since January. And if we’re talking pregnant women, did you know that “lockdowns” have somehow (nothing causal yet) reduced the number of premature births? So less pregnant women being hospitalized than in a normal year! Fun!

I read the link you posted as saying 27k pregnant women with COVID hospitalized, 6k of which went to the ICU with 5k on a ventilator but those 6/5k numbers were the women they had ICU and ventilator data on, the actual tables cut off on my phone.

I am struggling to understand why you are trying so hard to present COVID as not a serious problem, quite frankly.

27k is over 1% of those hospitalized. That's not a small amount. Under low prevalence, that number would only get much higher.

So all of our policies should be supported by, "Covid is a serious ploblem."? Yes, I want hard data. Without it, restrictions should be out of the question. They've had months to organize and prepare for adequate data collection. We're talking about thousands of hospitalizations. How hard is it to track severity? For that matter, why not the ages of those hospitalized. How about ages and severity of symptoms for all cases? These are BASIC metrics that should be tracked. All I hear from ford and his cronies is that they're sharing all the data. Either he's lying about it being shared, or there's simply no data. For deaths our policy states, "Any case marked "Fatal" is included in the deaths data. Deaths are included whether or not COVID-19 was determined to be a contributing or underlying cause of death as indicated in the iPHIS field “Type of Death”."

You original argument was that pregnant women were counted as hospitalizations whether they had covid or not. mtcan verified through his experience in the field that this was not the case, that you don't get hospitalized for covid, or count as a hospitalization for covid, unless you actually test for covid.

Fairview called you out on a lack of data for your claim, so you produced a study that 27K pregnant women were counted as covid hospitalizations, whether they went to the hospital with symptoms or later tested positive because the hospital tests anyone who needs to be admitted.

Here's the thing, though. There are roughly 4 million births every year in the US, the vast majority being in hospitals. If you round down by 10% for those born at home with midwives or clinics or whatever, that leaves 3.6 million hospital admissions a year for pregnant women to give birth, and that is not even counting for the very large number of pregnant women who go to the hospital for issues along the way, or other health problems, so its probably waaay higher. Even if you don't count any of those visits prior to birthing, it's approx 300K per month or over 2 million since the outbreak became serious in March and cases started to be counted.

So, off the bat, all pregnant women admitted to hospitals DO NOT get counted as covid admissions as you asserted, because the number would be in the millions. Instead, it's like 1-2% of all pregnant women, which is actually a very reasonable number who may have actually contracted covid and been verified to have it based on testing.

If your issue is whether they went to the hospital because of covid symptoms, or because their pregnancy was already taking them to the hospital where they later found out they had covid because of testing, then it's not even the total 27K number you cited and only a part of that. Logic would dictate that MOST of those women went to the hospital because they had symptoms and wanted to be very careful with the health if their unborn child. Some simple decuctive reasoning will tell you that the number of pregnant women who went to hospital for non covid reasons but then found out they had it because of admission testing could only be a portion of that 27K.

And so because of the accuracy of these 27K women being in question in your mind - or probably well under 10K if you consider my previous paragraph - you're going to use that to question all covid hospitalization counting and further use that to question ALL measures being used to mitigate the spread of a virus that has killed over a million people worldwide and over 220K in the US alone where those women were among the millions of counted cases.

Are you for real?

> You original argument was that pregnant women were counted as hospitalizations whether they had covid or not.
No it wasn't. Reading comprehension fail. I didn't even read past this sentence. Thanks.

[NinjaBro]

Lol this shut down is working great really solved the problem

Watch on YouTube

Things are spiralling out of control in Italy. Over 19K cases in one day and setting new record highs. Government is imposing a lockdown with curfews set at 11am to 5pm. Protesters are clashing with police. Crazy.

[Kevin Willis]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

I wish you were right that the measures were overdone but please look at Europe. This second wave in the Northern Hemisphere is going to be bad and people like yourselves are fed up. They don't want to do lockdowns anymore, they want to live their lives and that is going to make it even worse. I wish I am wrong but the next four months is going to be devastation and the people who are fighting safety measues will look back at this time with regret.

Until we hear a more feasible way to stop this train, this is what we have. I miss so much that I am used to. Going to the gym. Hanging out with friends. Visiting family's house. Going to work but it's just not about me and my discomforts. I can't be so selfish.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

[Local_NG_Idiot]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

Go volunteer your time in a hospital, long term care, or retirement home for a week and then come back here and say this again.

[BBallInSight]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

Go volunteer your time in a hospital, long term care, or retirement home for a week and then come back here and say this again.

There are fewer than 2 Covid patients in Ontario, on average in each hospital. Why would you expect that to change his mind?

[Courtside]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

Go volunteer your time in a hospital, long term care, or retirement home for a week and then come back here and say this again.

There are fewer than 2 Covid patients in Ontario, on average in each hospital. Why would you expect that to change his mind?

Got some evidence to support that claim?

[Local_NG_Idiot]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

Go volunteer your time in a hospital, long term care, or retirement home for a week and then come back here and say this again.

There are fewer than 2 Covid patients in Ontario, on average in each hospital. Why would you expect that to change his mind?

many more people than just the covid patients at those facilities where anyone can obtain objective information.

[Pointgod]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

The only thing dumber than this post are the people who gave it an and1.

[M3tro]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

People are being conditioned to fear everyone from their neighbours, to grocery staff and even the old lady walking towards them on the street; yet they bash those who question this situation as conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers or Trump supporters. The same people that claim the Western world is evil, corrupt and racist when it fits their narrative; but suddenly on this issue the powers that be have our best interests in mind?? lol

Money is being printed at exorbitant rates and will need to be paid back with interest. Pharmaceutical companies will profit billions when a vaccine is forced onto everyone. Amazon, Walmart and the other elites continue to chug along while small business competition gets wiped out.

We're literally getting **** with no lube blatantly, but hey, let's keep isolating ourselves and live in a constant state of paranoia while the government dangles the proverbial carrot of obedience to head back to "normalcy".

[TorontoRapsFan]

Why are some of you using numbers that are from within the context of the measures that have been taken to say the numbers show the measures aren't needed. By this logic, your brains don't droop over your shoulders so why not get rid of your skulls? I mean it'll solve your headaches right??

This thread is depressing af.

[BBallInSight]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

People are being conditioned to fear everyone from their neighbours, to grocery staff and even the old lady walking towards them on the street; yet they bash those who question this situation as conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers or Trump supporters. The same people that claim the Western world is evil, corrupt and racist when it fits their narrative; but suddenly on this issue the powers that be have our best interests in mind?? lol

Money is being printed at exorbitant rates and will need to be paid back with interest. Pharmaceutical companies will profit billions when a vaccine is forced onto everyone. Amazon, Walmart and the other elites continue to chug along while small business competition gets wiped out.

We're literally getting **** with no lube blatantly, but hey, let's keep isolating ourselves and live in a constant state of paranoia while the government dangles the proverbial carrot of obedience to head back to "normalcy".

I don't think they could do less to hide it, and yet people are all on board the isolation train. What's it going to take before people wake up? No-frills government programs from here on out, as we've spent a generation of money.

[TorontoRapsFan]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

People are being conditioned to fear everyone from their neighbours, to grocery staff and even the old lady walking towards them on the street; yet they bash those who question this situation as conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers or Trump supporters. The same people that claim the Western world is evil, corrupt and racist when it fits their narrative; but suddenly on this issue the powers that be have our best interests in mind?? lol

Money is being printed at exorbitant rates and will need to be paid back with interest. Pharmaceutical companies will profit billions when a vaccine is forced onto everyone. Amazon, Walmart and the other elites continue to chug along while small business competition gets wiped out.

We're literally getting **** with no lube blatantly, but hey, let's keep isolating ourselves and live in a constant state of paranoia while the government dangles the proverbial carrot of obedience to head back to "normalcy".

So until Covid we haven't been getting *** with no lube blatantly by the same exact people you talk about? These people are just doing what they always do and its to take as much advantage of the situation as possible without regard for people. And they can do it not cause we are sheep and we listen to medical advice. It's cause they are already above any real struggle for their position. Do you really think they need to go through inventing opportunities? Well, actually they do, and its called war. And its a lot more effective than anything else you can think of.

[M3tro]

COVID-19 has caused more harm for the measures taken to "stop the spread" than the virus itself.

Lives ruined, economies hurt, and death rates low, yet there is constant fear mongering in the media, 24/7 from every outlet.

Draconian measures implemented and those who oppose are censored or discredited, for reasons unknown.

People are being conditioned to fear everyone from their neighbours, to grocery staff and even the old lady walking towards them on the street; yet they bash those who question this situation as conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers or Trump supporters. The same people that claim the Western world is evil, corrupt and racist when it fits their narrative; but suddenly on this issue the powers that be have our best interests in mind?? lol

Money is being printed at exorbitant rates and will need to be paid back with interest. Pharmaceutical companies will profit billions when a vaccine is forced onto everyone. Amazon, Walmart and the other elites continue to chug along while small business competition gets wiped out.

We're literally getting **** with no lube blatantly, but hey, let's keep isolating ourselves and live in a constant state of paranoia while the government dangles the proverbial carrot of obedience to head back to "normalcy".

So until Covid we haven't been getting *** with no lube blatantly by the same exact people you talk about? These people are just doing what they always do and its to take as much advantage of the situation as possible without regard for people. And they can do it not cause we are sheep and we listen to medical advice. It's cause they are already above any real struggle for their position. Do you really think they need to go through inventing opportunities? Well, actually they do, and its called war. And its a lot more effective than anything else you can think of.

What do you think COVID is? this is literally biological warfare.

These same powers are always coming up with inventive ways to **** us because they have to appease the masses and not make it look like we're actually getting ****. Punishments have to be justified.

Remember 911? Look at the spillover from that situation and argue that the US didn't use it as an excuse to steal oil/resources from the Middle East. Who was the boogeyman for that situation? Islam, ISIS, Bin Laden, Sadam.

Different characters. Same script.

[Caboclo]

https://files.ontario.ca/moh-covid-19-report-en-2020-10-25.pdf

1042 new cases today

[mtcan]

People are being conditioned to fear everyone from their neighbours, to grocery staff and even the old lady walking towards them on the street; yet they bash those who question this situation as conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers or Trump supporters. The same people that claim the Western world is evil, corrupt and racist when it fits their narrative; but suddenly on this issue the powers that be have our best interests in mind?? lol

Money is being printed at exorbitant rates and will need to be paid back with interest. Pharmaceutical companies will profit billions when a vaccine is forced onto everyone. Amazon, Walmart and the other elites continue to chug along while small business competition gets wiped out.

We're literally getting **** with no lube blatantly, but hey, let's keep isolating ourselves and live in a constant state of paranoia while the government dangles the proverbial carrot of obedience to head back to "normalcy".

So until Covid we haven't been getting *** with no lube blatantly by the same exact people you talk about? These people are just doing what they always do and its to take as much advantage of the situation as possible without regard for people. And they can do it not cause we are sheep and we listen to medical advice. It's cause they are already above any real struggle for their position. Do you really think they need to go through inventing opportunities? Well, actually they do, and its called war. And its a lot more effective than anything else you can think of.

What do you think COVID is? this is literally biological warfare.

These same powers are always coming up with inventive ways to **** us because they have to appease the masses and not make it look like we're actually getting ****. Punishments have to be justified.

Remember 911? Look at the spillover from that situation and argue that the US didn't use it as an excuse to steal oil/resources from the Middle East. Who was the boogeyman for that situation? Islam, ISIS, Bin Laden, Sadam.

Different characters. Same script.

...and who are these "powers" exactly?

[M3tro]

So until Covid we haven't been getting *** with no lube blatantly by the same exact people you talk about? These people are just doing what they always do and its to take as much advantage of the situation as possible without regard for people. And they can do it not cause we are sheep and we listen to medical advice. It's cause they are already above any real struggle for their position. Do you really think they need to go through inventing opportunities? Well, actually they do, and its called war. And its a lot more effective than anything else you can think of.

What do you think COVID is? this is literally biological warfare.

These same powers are always coming up with inventive ways to **** us because they have to appease the masses and not make it look like we're actually getting ****. Punishments have to be justified.

Remember 911? Look at the spillover from that situation and argue that the US didn't use it as an excuse to steal oil/resources from the Middle East. Who was the boogeyman for that situation? Islam, ISIS, Bin Laden, Sadam.

Different characters. Same script.

...and who are these "powers" exactly?

Whoever controls the most resources.

[mtcan]

What do you think COVID is? this is literally biological warfare.

These same powers are always coming up with inventive ways to **** us because they have to appease the masses and not make it look like we're actually getting ****. Punishments have to be justified.

Remember 911? Look at the spillover from that situation and argue that the US didn't use it as an excuse to steal oil/resources from the Middle East. Who was the boogeyman for that situation? Islam, ISIS, Bin Laden, Sadam.

Different characters. Same script.

...and who are these "powers" exactly?

Whoever controls the most resources.

so you don't know either...

[Pointgod]

So until Covid we haven't been getting *** with no lube blatantly by the same exact people you talk about? These people are just doing what they always do and its to take as much advantage of the situation as possible without regard for people. And they can do it not cause we are sheep and we listen to medical advice. It's cause they are already above any real struggle for their position. Do you really think they need to go through inventing opportunities? Well, actually they do, and its called war. And its a lot more effective than anything else you can think of.

What do you think COVID is? this is literally biological warfare.

These same powers are always coming up with inventive ways to **** us because they have to appease the masses and not make it look like we're actually getting ****. Punishments have to be justified.

Remember 911? Look at the spillover from that situation and argue that the US didn't use it as an excuse to steal oil/resources from the Middle East. Who was the boogeyman for that situation? Islam, ISIS, Bin Laden, Sadam.

Different characters. Same script.

...and who are these "powers" exactly?

Justin Trudeau and the Global Elite of course, i.e. anybody that believes in science, doesn’t treat human lives as political props, and doesn’t have slavish devotion to the Sun and Rebel Media. Never mind that to believe this global conspiracy means that a bunch of countries got together and unleashed a biological weapon on the world destroying their own economies along the way all in the service of the Pharmaceutical industry, Amazon and Walmart. Completely logical and makes sense.