Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[TravisScott55]

I wonder if you had this same opinion back when Siakam was a Raptor and BI wasn't. I'm doubtful.

Siakam is a better player than Ingram. He's actually available to play for an entire season and playoffs, and he can actually play defence. And even on the offensive end, he's easier to plug into any system than Ingram (neither one is a first option, so that matters).

It's so funny reading this thread and seeing Raptor fans convince themselves Ingram is a top 15 player now and Quickley is better than Myles Turner and Giannis is better than Jokic.

No one in this thread has said Giannis is better than Jokic, unless I completely missed it.

Siakam is a better player than Ingram, though it's never been a massive gap. Ingram is a better shot creator in the half court while Siakam is a better transition player, off-ball play finisher, and defender. With that said, Ingram is a fine fit with Giannis given the need for a secondary initiator and scorer beside him (see Middelton, Dame trade). Would I rather have Siakam beside him? I think so, but it's not that far off.

IQ vs Turner is almost impossible to rank. They both give you desirable traits in their position while also bringing a few critical shortcomings.

I do wonder why you are dodging the original debate though. Haliburton/Siakam/Turner are in the finals. Do you believe Giannis/Ingram/IQ are considerably worse?

Yes they aren't as good. Quickley is a bench player as best, Ingram is injury prone and hasn't shown he can play off ball.

[OakleyDokely]

40 mpg? No. But he is currently a 30 mpg starter. That doesn't fit with Giannis. I don't think it's good asset management to reduce Poeltl's role to a bench big.

There will be some games when he needs to play 40 mins, some he'll need to play 18.

I don't think there's pressure to play a 20M player given how large the cap is currently. The cap is projected to be around 155m this coming season, Poeltl's salary is only 12% of the cap, which isn't much more than a MLE player which is going to be around 10% of the cap.

If you can get a talent like Giannis, you worry about how he fits with Poeltl later. If it really doesn't work, you trade Poeltl for a different big.

Of course. I'm not arguing we need to trade him before getting Giannis. I'm saying they clearly aren't a good, much less ideal, match together.

It's not that we'd have pressure to have to play him minutes because of his salary, it's that his value would be better served as bait to fetch us a good replacement instead of him playing a reduced role off the bench.

Maybe, but I like the flexibility of a Poeltl/Giannis combo when you need defensive stops.

[ontnut]

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I would do that in a heartbeat.

I think any version of Giannis + Ingram + shooters is going to win you a lot of games.

Making those all unprotected while relying on a duo that is heavily reliant on an unhealthy player staying healthy, and another increasingly injured player no longer being injured, is a horrible trade. Giannis has played 70 + games once in the last 6 years, and we all know BI's struggle with injuries.

The two of them probably barely play 50 games together, and lord only knows how the playoffs would work out.

Those picks absolutely need top 5-10 protections.

You won't get multiple top 5 protections. I'd try and focus on top 3 protecting the later pick(s) and just let the chips fall as they may.
I do this trade. It's certainly an expensive price to pay, but I end up pulling the trigger.

[YogurtProducer]

"I am not saying the Raptors are that good, but I think Giannis can take them to the finals. You thinking that means I am saying they are so good is you making assumptions."

You can think the Raptors are a great team in a VERY WEAK east and not think Ingram is a top 15 player.

Do you think that Haliburton/Nembhard/Nesmith/Siakam/Turner is significantly better (or better at all) than Quickley/Agbaji/Ingram/Giannis/Poeltl? That looks like a matchup that could go eitehr way, and I would say that Raptors team has a higher ceiling overall.

Giannis a legit MVP player man. 30/12/7 on 62.5TS% and a force on defense to. That is legitimately in the conversation for the best player in the league.

He played against Indiana this playoffs and put up 33/15/7 on 61% shooting. Wanna know the top scorers after him? GTJ, Portis, KPJ, and AJ Green. You don't think that series is a different story if his 2-5 guys were Ingram/IQ/Poeltl/Agbaji?

come on man. Stop trolling.

LMAO yes man, stop being a homer.

Honestly man, I think you are just so, so, so far off base here.

But we can end this here - until you actually like you know... bring something to the table other than troll-y comments.

[WuTang_CMB]

More doug i posted video in previous page

This is just his guess

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[YogurtProducer]

It's so funny reading this thread and seeing Raptor fans convince themselves Ingram is a top 15 player now and Quickley is better than Myles Turner and Giannis is better than Jokic.

No one in this thread has said Giannis is better than Jokic, unless I completely missed it.

Siakam is a better player than Ingram, though it's never been a massive gap. Ingram is a better shot creator in the half court while Siakam is a better transition player, off-ball play finisher, and defender. With that said, Ingram is a fine fit with Giannis given the need for a secondary initiator and scorer beside him (see Middelton, Dame trade). Would I rather have Siakam beside him? I think so, but it's not that far off.

IQ vs Turner is almost impossible to rank. They both give you desirable traits in their position while also bringing a few critical shortcomings.

I do wonder why you are dodging the original debate though. Haliburton/Siakam/Turner are in the finals. Do you believe Giannis/Ingram/IQ are considerably worse?

Yes they aren't as good. Quickley is a bench player as best, Ingram is injury prone and hasn't shown he can play off ball.

Okay man. Indiana is SO GOOD with obvious starters like Aaron Nesmith, and Andrew Nembhard, but IQ and Ingram suck. Got it.

Why do these awful troll accounts suddenly appear some days?

[OakleyDokely]

If the Bucks want 3-4-5 picks out into the future without any protections than Barnes isn't going to be included.

Teams don't give up a top, established young player and multiple unprotected 1sts for anyone.

Even the Clippers only did it for PG because it would land them Kawhi as well.

[Scase]

I would do that in a heartbeat.

I think any version of Giannis + Ingram + shooters is going to win you a lot of games.

Making those all unprotected while relying on a duo that is heavily reliant on an unhealthy player staying healthy, and another increasingly injured player no longer being injured, is a horrible trade. Giannis has played 70 + games once in the last 6 years, and we all know BI's struggle with injuries.

The two of them probably barely play 50 games together, and lord only knows how the playoffs would work out.

Those picks absolutely need top 5-10 protections.

You won't get multiple top 5 protections. I'd try and focus on top 3 protecting the later pick(s) and just let the chips fall as they may.
I do this trade. It's certainly an expensive price to pay, but I end up pulling the trigger.

The first suggestion I agree with, 27 top 3, and 29 top 10 makes sense. I was more taking issue with giving them 4 FRPs and only having the 31 pick top 8 protected.

Giannis is only here for 2 years guaranteed, and has missed a ton of games the last 6 years, BI is here for 3 years and has missed tons of games the last 8. Giving up a bunch of unprotected picks with those 2 players only being here til at most 28/29 is not worth the risk. That has the potential to tank the franchise for like 5-7 years with an upside of maybe an ECF birth.

You can't give up every future you have to get one guy, when your team still needs multiple upgrades after that, it's beyond short-sighted. This isn't Kawhi pushing the team over the top, this is a guy who is worse than Kawhi with both healthy, and being put onto a much worse team, at a much higher cost.

[HumbleRen]

IQ, Ingram, Giannis and Poeltl will beat any team in the east. I have no worries about that.

Pacers don’t scare me at all lol. Especially with competent players around Giannis.

[Don_Draper]

If I am Milwaukee, I am taking Barnes + Dick + two 1st rounders and I am happy. That's a beautiful young core to re-build around.

[Scase]

If the Bucks want 3-4-5 picks out into the future without any protections than Barnes isn't going to be included.

Teams don't give up a top, established young player and multiple unprotected 1sts for anyone.

Even the Clippers only did it for PG because it would land them Kawhi as well.

Exactly, you don't bend over backwards and give up every asset you have for a single player, Giannis is great, but he aint prime MJ.

[OakleyDokely]

IQ, Ingram, Giannis and Poeltl will beat any team in the east. I have no worries about that.

Pacers don’t scare me at all lol. Especially with competent players around Giannis.

ya, some people don't realize just how good Giannis is. Him with just replacement level talent around him wins 45 games. Guys like Ingram, IQ, Poeltl are above replacement level talent.

[Madvillainy2004]

The east with the Celtics basically out of the running with their cap + no tatum, is so attainable. Pacers, Knicks, Cavs are all good teams but Giannis would be the best player in any series with them.

[Deep1984]

Lmaooo these guys forget we won a championship

Just once in my Raptors loving life please for the love of god happen..

Just once? We got that when we traded for Kawhi.

[Clutch0z24]

If the Bucks want 3-4-5 picks out into the future without any protections than Barnes isn't going to be included.

Teams don't give up a top, established young player and multiple unprotected 1sts for anyone.

Even the Clippers only did it for PG because it would land them Kawhi as well.

Exactly, you don't bend over backwards and give up every asset you have for a single player, Giannis is great, but he aint prime MJ.

Thing is other teams maybe offering up that many draft picks for Giannis....Which if your the Bucks who can obv accept any offer on the table....Why would they entertain us?...Unless they think Barnes is that good to ignore all the other assets available....Which is a stretch....

#9th pick is gone, Barnes is gone and one of RJ/Dick is gone....Thats just the starting offer...it may stretch to 3 future 1st on top of that imo...

[Don_Draper]

All I know is we got Masai and he will make this happen. I have complete confidence he is in killer mode right now and will get it done, as he should.

[OakleyDokely]

If the Bucks want 3-4-5 picks out into the future without any protections than Barnes isn't going to be included.

Teams don't give up a top, established young player and multiple unprotected 1sts for anyone.

Even the Clippers only did it for PG because it would land them Kawhi as well.

Exactly, you don't bend over backwards and give up every asset you have for a single player, Giannis is great, but he aint prime MJ.

Thing is other teams maybe offering up that many draft picks for Giannis....Which if your the Bucks who can obv accept any offer on the table....Why would they entertain us?...Unless they think Barnes is that good to ignore all the other assets available....Which is a stretch....

#9th pick is gone, Barnes is gone and one of RJ/Dick is gone....Thats just the starting offer...it may stretch to 3 future 1st on top of that imo...

No team is going to offer 4-5 unprotected picks and a top young guy like Barnes. You'd be bidding against yourself.

If Bucks want multiple unprotected picks, the Raps can offer that. If they want a deal centered around a good young player instead, the Raps can offer that as well.

[ForeverTFC]

If the Bucks want 3-4-5 picks out into the future without any protections than Barnes isn't going to be included.

Teams don't give up a top, established young player and multiple unprotected 1sts for anyone.

Even the Clippers only did it for PG because it would land them Kawhi as well.

Exactly, you don't bend over backwards and give up every asset you have for a single player, Giannis is great, but he aint prime MJ.

What I really struggle with is how we can put together enough salary in a "give up all the picks and swaps" trade that keeps Scottie out of the deal and on the roster. You want to keep IQ and Ingram. I'm not opposed to sending out Poeltl but we need a C coming back somehow. Let's assume it's Barrett + Poeltl + picks and swaps. The next logical move is Scottie for salaries and draft asset to be able to round out the roster, no?

If we can somehow get Giannis w/o including Scottie, I still think Scottie needs to be traded. Where can we get a package that makes sense? Maybe the Nets? What about Cavs for Garland? They get their big wing and we can then flip IQ somewhere. Would the Pistons be open to putting Cade and Scottie back together? How about the Sixers for the 3rd pick and salaries? Do the Mavs have enough to make us an offer?

[Buff]

If the Bucks want 3-4-5 picks out into the future without any protections than Barnes isn't going to be included.

Teams don't give up a top, established young player and multiple unprotected 1sts for anyone.

Even the Clippers only did it for PG because it would land them Kawhi as well.

Now that you mention it, which would be an equivalent trade from the recent past? Like, young all star + how many picks for top 5 player?

[WuTang_CMB]

I would do this and it's probably the best offer Bucks will get if he wants to stay in the East. Toronto also pays for Bucks to get their own 26' back with no swap. If I made this deal for the Bucks I would tank the 2026 season and pick high and roll in 27' with Barnes and a top pick and then look to move Lillard next off-season for more. It's a steep price but I don't think Toronto is getting him for cheaper than this.

I don't think Pels trade that pick esp for Ochai ....Gotta think they know how valuable that Bucks pick is right now considering it could be a top 5 pick if Giannis is gone...

maybe not but im gonna guess new orleans has to be looped in here