Tank World Order

[Chandan]

can't get em all. Bounce back and get the L on saturday.

i feel like I'm in the Bizarro world.

I get people want to a good pick, but just being in last place is no guarantee that we get it.

Its kinda fun though. We want to be at the end of either spectrum between winning and losing.

[Pooh_Jeter]

I get your point but only 2 players on that list have a championship and its because they teamed up with Lebron. Maybe some of these guys will see the finals before all is said and done, maybe not.

I'm on the tank train because its the easiest path to a superstar level talent at the moment but we shouldn't be blind to the consequences if our pick is suboptimal.

The same way that many people pointed out that saving cap for Giannis is foolish because of x, y and z; tanking may not render the desired outcome either.

With a rebuild there are always fail safes though. If you have multiple picks and young assets you can insulate yourself against not getting the pick you wanted or a draft pick not being quite what you hoped for. A player drafted that high is going to retain at least some value as well at least through their rookie deal and often times into their next deal.

With Giannis it was basically all or nothing.

The only thing you really need is a little bit of patience, because if you have the right infrastructure in place you're going to build something that is positive.

I am not for tanking, because I hate losing. But I thought I'd look in here. One thing occurs to me - the tank scenario seems to always involve trading Kyle, and drafting a great wing, and getting a decent C in the off-season by trade or whatever. To add to the young core of Fred Pascal OG and I guess Boucher (with Norm also leaving).

Biggest thing missing in that scenario, aside from the lottery being a crap shoot is this - without Kyle we'd have no good point guard. Fred shows all the time he cannot run a team offense very well. He is a 6 foot SG, 3 and d man, and a very good one. But the team envisioned by you tank guys would need a very good, and tall, point guard. Because I think Malachi will be ok but not great, plus a backcourt of him and Fred is back to the old super small backcourt.

The league is flush with PG talent so I don't think it's a huge issue finding someone capable in that respect. Cade who is generally seen as the BPA can be a primary ball handler (same with Suggs who is in the top 5).

The one year stealth tank also doesn't really make sense unless you have a star already in place. This ideally should be at least a 2 year endeavor and the trade market for the current core group needs to be explored.

[ruckus]

I get your point but only 2 players on that list have a championship and its because they teamed up with Lebron. Maybe some of these guys will see the finals before all is said and done, maybe not.

I'm on the tank train because its the easiest path to a superstar level talent at the moment but we shouldn't be blind to the consequences if our pick is suboptimal.

The same way that many people pointed out that saving cap for Giannis is foolish because of x, y and z; tanking may not render the desired outcome either.

With a rebuild there are always fail safes though. If you have multiple picks and young assets you can insulate yourself against not getting the pick you wanted or a draft pick not being quite what you hoped for. A player drafted that high is going to retain at least some value as well at least through their rookie deal and often times into their next deal.

With Giannis it was basically all or nothing.

The only thing you really need is a little bit of patience, because if you have the right infrastructure in place you're going to build something that is positive.

Not necessarily. Giannis wasn't the only prize in that free agency class but he was the Grand Prize. Utah took Gobert off the table and Indiana effectively took Dipo off the table as well but they were also both options at one point. We also have flexibility going forward financially in order to facilitate trades.

I agree with the infrastructure piece. Masai and Bobby have built an amazing infrastructure that is conducive to winning. Which on a side note where I disagree with other posters who say winning culture doesn't mean much.

Winning culture is more than just winning games. It's everything from the ground up, the infrastructure as you put it. When tearing down, there is a risk of losing that infrastructure that took 7 years to put into place.

For example, yes, we have a good to great front office and coaching staff. They are also an expensive front office and coaching staff. Ownership may not be so inclined to continue to pay for a top notch front office and coaching staff if we continue to lose for an extended amount of time.

I'm all for the 2 year tank and trying for Bates. However, there is a real possibility that if we do win that sweepstakes, the behind the scenes stuff could be totally different from what has been built up.

So, basically what I'm saying is the good management fall back for a suboptimal draft is not a great fall back because as soon as ownership gets restless, they start looking for escapegoats.

I've read a lot about people being ok with a tank because of Masai, Bobby, Tolzman and Nurse being around and guiding decisions. If ownership gets restless, those 4 could easily be out the door.

[mdenny]

We have one pick in this draft. In the upcoming years there are teams who have 3 to 4 firsts in the same draft.

If we think the draft is the best way to rebuild than by extension....we must also think that it's going to be impossible to compete with the numerous teams who have 5 to 10 times more picks than us.

Unless we trade Lowry and siakam....these dreams of building through the draft are absolutely a case of betting on a crap shoot. If we get 3 firsts this year and next...than it won't sound so ludricous.

We have a whopping 2 draft picks over the next 2 years and we're obsessing over prospects? We have LESS than the average # of picks league-wide. Os it possible we strike gold? Sure.....but unless we get ALOT more picks than this particular pipedream is like counting on winning at the roulette wheel.

Imagine being a clippers fan and reading this thread lol. "They have HOW MANY picks?!?!"

[Pooh_Jeter]

I get your point but only 2 players on that list have a championship and its because they teamed up with Lebron. Maybe some of these guys will see the finals before all is said and done, maybe not.

I'm on the tank train because its the easiest path to a superstar level talent at the moment but we shouldn't be blind to the consequences if our pick is suboptimal.

The same way that many people pointed out that saving cap for Giannis is foolish because of x, y and z; tanking may not render the desired outcome either.

With a rebuild there are always fail safes though. If you have multiple picks and young assets you can insulate yourself against not getting the pick you wanted or a draft pick not being quite what you hoped for. A player drafted that high is going to retain at least some value as well at least through their rookie deal and often times into their next deal.

With Giannis it was basically all or nothing.

The only thing you really need is a little bit of patience, because if you have the right infrastructure in place you're going to build something that is positive.

Not necessarily. Giannis wasn't the only prize in that free agency class but he was the Grand Prize. Utah took Gobert off the table and Indiana effectively took Dipo off the table as well but they were also both options at one point. We also have flexibility going forward financially in order to facilitate trades.

I agree with the infrastructure piece. Masai and Bobby have built an amazing infrastructure that is conducive to winning. Which on a side note where I disagree with other posters who say winning culture doesn't mean much.

Winning culture is more than just winning games. It's everything from the ground up, the infrastructure as you put it. When tearing down, there is a risk of losing that infrastructure that took 7 years to put into place.

For example, yes, we have a good to great front office and coaching staff. They are also an expensive front office and coaching staff. Ownership may not be so inclined to continue to pay for a top notch front office and coaching staff if we continue to lose for an extended amount of time.

I'm all for the 2 year tank and trying for Bates. However, there is a real possibility that if we do win that sweepstakes, the behind the scenes stuff could be totally different from what has been built up.

So, basically what I'm saying is the good management fall back for a suboptimal draft is not a great fall back because as soon as ownership gets restless, they start looking for escapegoats.

I've read a lot about people being ok with a tank because of Masai, Bobby, Tolzman and Nurse being around and guiding decisions. If ownership gets restless, those 4 could easily be out the door.

A great organization always starts from the very top, so the current management structure would have a mandate from ownership on whatever path they choose. There has never been an indication from the Raptors ownership that they would become meddlesome. They have given Masai the green light at every turn and clearly signed off on him rebuilding when he was originally going to do it before the Lowry to Knicks trade failed. Like you said it would sabotage things, but there is no indication that would occur and every good organization in the league has stable ownership who buys into their leadership teams vision. This "winning culture" isn't just about literal wins on the court it's more about an organizational culture from top to bottom being unified and just smart and prescient in their decision making. You can take an intentional step down and still maintain that.

Thing is, those back-up plans aren't real prizes. Signing Gobert to a max deal would have done little for the Raptors and arguably makes their future dicier. Yes, he can defend the paint and rebound, but he is a complete 0 offensively and hasn't shown to be an impact guy in the playoffs at all. Oladipo is fine, but we have seen this current Raptors core needs a Kawhi or Giannis level player to be a legit contender. Signing a guy like Oladipo who has major health concerns and is at his best a tier 2 guy (likely tier 3) doesn't do much. That salary flexibility when you are a win now team is much more limited especially when you are looking for the #1 guy and not just supporting pieces.

[Pooh_Jeter]

We have one pick in this draft. In the upcoming years there are teams who have 3 to 4 firsts in the same draft.

If we think the draft is the best way to rebuild than by extension....we must also think that it's going to be impossible to compete with the numerous teams who have 5 to 10 times more picks than us.

They got those picks via trade which is exactly what the Raptors can do. Also, there is no guarantee where those picks end up and who they get with them. It just makes the margin for error of those teams that much bigger.

You want to get as many picks as possible for asset plays, but when you get an asset like say a Luka, Ja, Zion, etc. they are worth basically every single one of those picks.

If you have one of those guys AND the extra picks that is when you have a team that can reach special territory.

[720]

We're not like those other scrub teams. We just need one blue chip prospect.

[720]

I used to call TeamPositive as TeamMediocre back in the Debrick days. I'm going back to that.

[C-R-E-A-M-]

Cade would look amazing on this team. By the time Siakam/Fred are 29 and OG is 25 he would be a star.

[720]

Cade would look amazing on this team. By the time Siakam/Fred are 29 and OG is 25 he would be a star.

He could be a star his rookie year.

[Marty_Budda]

I used to call TeamPositive as TeamMediocre back in the Debrick days. I'm going back to that.

TeamNegative wanted to tank back in the derozan days tho. Meaning we couldn’t trade demar for Kawhi and win a championship.

I’d say team positive won out that time

All should be aboard the tank now.

[720]

I used to call TeamPositive as TeamMediocre back in the Debrick days. I'm going back to that.

TeamNegative wanted to tank back in the derozan days tho. Meaning we couldn’t trade demar for Kawhi and win a championship.

I’d say team positive won out that time

All should be aboard the tank now.

Team Mediocre weren't saying lets trade Demar for a superstar. They said Demar was fine and that it's everything else that was the problem (they would blame Casey, JV, Lowry, etc). They would make arguments like getting swept by the cavs wasn't embarrassing and that at least we made it that far into the playoffs.

[Marty_Budda]

I used to call TeamPositive as TeamMediocre back in the Debrick days. I'm going back to that.

TeamNegative wanted to tank back in the derozan days tho. Meaning we couldn’t trade demar for Kawhi and win a championship.

I’d say team positive won out that time

All should be aboard the tank now.

Team Mediocre weren't saying lets trade Demar for a superstar. They said Demar was fine and that it's everything else that was the problem (they would blame Casey, JV, Lowry, etc). They would make arguments like getting swept by the cavs wasn't embarrassing and that at least we made it that far in the playoffs.

That’s fair.

But on the flip side team negative thought there was no hope or future and we should just trade everyone for draft picks.

There are extremes on both sides.

[720]

TeamNegative wanted to tank back in the derozan days tho. Meaning we couldn’t trade demar for Kawhi and win a championship.

I’d say team positive won out that time

All should be aboard the tank now.

Team Mediocre weren't saying lets trade Demar for a superstar. They said Demar was fine and that it's everything else that was the problem (they would blame Casey, JV, Lowry, etc). They would make arguments like getting swept by the cavs wasn't embarrassing and that at least we made it that far in the playoffs.

That’s fair.

But on the flip side team negative thought there was no hope or future and we should just trade everyone for draft picks.

There are extremes on both sides.

Unless Zaza injures another star and that leads to a once in a lifetime heist of a trade I don't think retaining Demar was the right thing. As it became more and more clear that Demar wasn't the one and his flaws would always hinder us from taking that next step I was firmly in the camp of trading him. I was Team Negative back then but I didn't necessarily say we needed to even tank. Remember Lowry was like 29-30 years old back then. I just wanted to see him paired with another star for the last few years of his prime.

Like I said if the Kawhi Spurs unrest didn't happen we would be like the Blazers right now.

[Marty_Budda]

Team Mediocre weren't saying lets trade Demar for a superstar. They said Demar was fine and that it's everything else that was the problem (they would blame Casey, JV, Lowry, etc). They would make arguments like getting swept by the cavs wasn't embarrassing and that at least we made it that far in the playoffs.

That’s fair.

But on the flip side team negative thought there was no hope or future and we should just trade everyone for draft picks.

There are extremes on both sides.

Unless Zaza injures another star and that leads to a once in a lifetime heist of a trade I don't think retaining Demar was the right thing. As it became more and more clear that Demar wasn't the one and his flaws would always hinder us from taking that next step I was firmly in the camp of trading him. I was Team Negative back then but I didn't necessarily say we needed to even tank. Remember Lowry was like 29-30 years old back then. I just wanted to see him paired with another star for the last few years of his prime.

Like I said if the Kawhi Spurs unrest didn't happen we would be like the Blazers right now.

I don’t disagree with you about anything. But I’m saying there were two extremes from both sides.

I was all on board to trade demar especially after the final cavs sweep. I mean that was embarrassing. Building a team around a guy that plays no D or shoot 3s you won’t win.

However I remember some people on here were looking to tank to trade demar to the grizzlies or something for the #4 pick in 2018 or 2019 I forget.

We got lucky with Kawhi wanting out but you need luck to win titles.

[aj174]

Team Mediocre weren't saying lets trade Demar for a superstar. They said Demar was fine and that it's everything else that was the problem (they would blame Casey, JV, Lowry, etc). They would make arguments like getting swept by the cavs wasn't embarrassing and that at least we made it that far in the playoffs.

That’s fair.

But on the flip side team negative thought there was no hope or future and we should just trade everyone for draft picks.

There are extremes on both sides.

Unless Zaza injures another star and that leads to a once in a lifetime heist of a trade I don't think retaining Demar was the right thing. As it became more and more clear that Demar wasn't the one and his flaws would always hinder us from taking that next step I was firmly in the camp of trading him. I was Team Negative back then but I didn't necessarily say we needed to even tank. Remember Lowry was like 29-30 years old back then. I just wanted to see him paired with another star for the last few years of his prime.

Like I said if the Kawhi Spurs unrest didn't happen we would be like the Blazers right now.

I actually think Masai was gonna trade demar regardless. There were rumours that he tried for wiggins before and paul george (I could be wrong on that one).

One thing I'll agree with the tanking, is that we need good prospects for either star development or trade value. We traded poeltl, demar and a pick for kawhi, Tross for serge, all lotto picks we traded. Either we get players who have the value of lotto picks (like siakam, fred, etc), or we draft lotto picks by getting them. Seems like we can get them either by being bad, or trading talent, and the only talent that would net a decent pick, AND would make sense to trade would be Lowry.

I was never for tanking in the derozan days because it made no sense to be almost over the hill and just roll back down when we needed that extra gear (kawhi) to get over that hump. Right now, it looks like we might not even be halfway up the hill of contention. Looking over at other teams like boston and brooklyn, looks like they're either at the peak of the hill or over that hump, AND they're division rivals.

You know...giannis and kawhi were like..15th picks? I honestly think that getting a star is more about your development than it is about the draft selection. For example, if kawhi went to the timberwolves instead of the spurs, would he be the same kawhi? I don't think so. Maybe, but i'd wager that he wouldn't.

This is why winning culture is so important. It's really important not to tank as in purposely losing and instilling losing habits. If we have to lose, we have to do it while trying to win. That's the true way to tank while not absorbing a losing culture. Right now, with the close games we've had, I'd say we're on track of trying to win but just not being good enough, an effective tank.

[Inevitable]

Schedule is about to get real tough.

Saturday Hayward most likely returns, so that game will be pretty competitive. Then we face

Mavs
Heat (Butler and Bam will be back)
Heat
Pacers
Pacers
Bucks

[Pooh_Jeter]

That’s fair.

But on the flip side team negative thought there was no hope or future and we should just trade everyone for draft picks.

There are extremes on both sides.

Unless Zaza injures another star and that leads to a once in a lifetime heist of a trade I don't think retaining Demar was the right thing. As it became more and more clear that Demar wasn't the one and his flaws would always hinder us from taking that next step I was firmly in the camp of trading him. I was Team Negative back then but I didn't necessarily say we needed to even tank. Remember Lowry was like 29-30 years old back then. I just wanted to see him paired with another star for the last few years of his prime.

Like I said if the Kawhi Spurs unrest didn't happen we would be like the Blazers right now.

I actually think Masai was gonna trade demar regardless. There were rumours that he tried for wiggins before and paul george (I could be wrong on that one).

One thing I'll agree with the tanking, is that we need good prospects for either star development or trade value. We traded poeltl, demar and a pick for kawhi, Tross for serge, all lotto picks we traded. Either we get players who have the value of lotto picks (like siakam, fred, etc), or we draft lotto picks by getting them. Seems like we can get them either by being bad, or trading talent, and the only talent that would net a decent pick, AND would make sense to trade would be Lowry.

I was never for tanking in the derozan days because it made no sense to be almost over the hill and just roll back down when we needed that extra gear (kawhi) to get over that hump. Right now, it looks like we might not even be halfway up the hill of contention. Looking over at other teams like boston and brooklyn, looks like they're either at the peak of the hill or over that hump, AND they're division rivals.

You know...giannis and kawhi were like..15th picks? I honestly think that getting a star is more about your development than it is about the draft selection. For example, if kawhi went to the timberwolves instead of the spurs, would he be the same kawhi? I don't think so. Maybe, but i'd wager that he wouldn't.

This is why winning culture is so important. It's really important not to tank as in purposely losing and instilling losing habits. If we have to lose, we have to do it while trying to win. That's the true way to tank while not absorbing a losing culture. Right now, with the close games we've had, I'd say we're on track of trying to win but just not being good enough, an effective tank.

Tanking doesn't mean actively telling your coaches/players to not try or lose. Outside of soccer match fixing and scandals in the early days of baseball it just doesn't happen and it's generally rogue players/coaches who get black balled from sports entirely.

In reality it's an organizational directive to strip the roster down for assets. Basically what OKC is doing right now. Even with them, they are actually playing super competitively and they even have a couple vets on the roster. You can play super hard and develop your young talent while tanking/rebuilding. If anything the roster will be full of players hungry to prove their worth. The Raptors have managed to be even worse than the Thunder, yet they don't have that treasure trove of draft picks and they weren't intentionally trying to be this bad.

[aj174]

Unless Zaza injures another star and that leads to a once in a lifetime heist of a trade I don't think retaining Demar was the right thing. As it became more and more clear that Demar wasn't the one and his flaws would always hinder us from taking that next step I was firmly in the camp of trading him. I was Team Negative back then but I didn't necessarily say we needed to even tank. Remember Lowry was like 29-30 years old back then. I just wanted to see him paired with another star for the last few years of his prime.

Like I said if the Kawhi Spurs unrest didn't happen we would be like the Blazers right now.

I actually think Masai was gonna trade demar regardless. There were rumours that he tried for wiggins before and paul george (I could be wrong on that one).

One thing I'll agree with the tanking, is that we need good prospects for either star development or trade value. We traded poeltl, demar and a pick for kawhi, Tross for serge, all lotto picks we traded. Either we get players who have the value of lotto picks (like siakam, fred, etc), or we draft lotto picks by getting them. Seems like we can get them either by being bad, or trading talent, and the only talent that would net a decent pick, AND would make sense to trade would be Lowry.

I was never for tanking in the derozan days because it made no sense to be almost over the hill and just roll back down when we needed that extra gear (kawhi) to get over that hump. Right now, it looks like we might not even be halfway up the hill of contention. Looking over at other teams like boston and brooklyn, looks like they're either at the peak of the hill or over that hump, AND they're division rivals.

You know...giannis and kawhi were like..15th picks? I honestly think that getting a star is more about your development than it is about the draft selection. For example, if kawhi went to the timberwolves instead of the spurs, would he be the same kawhi? I don't think so. Maybe, but i'd wager that he wouldn't.

This is why winning culture is so important. It's really important not to tank as in purposely losing and instilling losing habits. If we have to lose, we have to do it while trying to win. That's the true way to tank while not absorbing a losing culture. Right now, with the close games we've had, I'd say we're on track of trying to win but just not being good enough, an effective tank.

Tanking doesn't mean actively telling your coaches/players to not try or lose. Outside of soccer match fixing and scandals in the early days of baseball it just doesn't happen and it's generally rogue players/coaches who get black balled from sports entirely.

In reality it's an organizational directive to strip the roster down for assets. Basically what OKC is doing right now. Even with them, they are actually playing super competitively and they even have a couple vets on the roster. You can play super hard and develop your young talent while tanking/rebuilding. If anything the roster will be full of players hungry to prove their worth. The Raptors have managed to be even worse than the Thunder, yet they don't have that treasure trove of draft picks and they weren't intentionally trying to be this bad.

I think the thunder and rockets are going to be really strong cases for how inflated the price is for a superstar in their prime. OKC made out like absolute bandits with the trade, they got a star in the making in SGA AND like, 7 FRPs?? That's absolutely insane, they don't even have to worry about their own picks for years. Rockets just got 8 picks, 4 swaps and 4 picks in sequential years...like that's an insane price to pay if you ask me. All just to win a championship...i think history will look at those two trades in favour of OKC and the rockets.

We're not in the same position cause we don't have someone in their prime to trade for a bunch of picks, and there's no sense in trading siakam. Actually, both those team traded their players because they requested it (harden and PG), they would've kept em if it was up to management.

I think it's just the natural cycle of contendership, we've had 7 years of historic success, multiple all stars, an all star game in TO, two ECFs, a handful of divion banners and of course a championship. That's amazing..looks like we'll be losing a lot of games this year and maybe beyond, but with our management i dont doubt we can get back to the top. Masai traded rudy gay for solid bench pieces that made a good regular season team, so that might be where we're at. I trust Masai and bobby, it's going to be an interesting few years for sure.

[Son Goku 25]

Give me Mobley and one of Cade, Kuminga, jaylen or Suggs. Id trade away Lowry and pieces for another top pick if were fully tanking this year and I love Lowry.