Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread Part 9

[TheRealDeal]

Posted this in the Vesely thread too, but Tim Chisholm has a good blog post outlining why he doesn't understand the appeal of Jan Vesely:

http://tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=368386

So true...

The Raptors have a chance to land a really solid centre (Kanter or Valanciunas) or a really solid point guard (Brandon Knight or Kemba Walker) in this year's draft, an opportunity they haven't had in a long time, so why chase a small forward instead? Furthermore, why chase a small forward with such an incomplete skill-set like Jan Vesely? I just don't get it. I get taking a risk on a centre, and I get playing it safe with a point guard. I do not get pursuing a small forward like Vesely.

[phailing101]

WolstatSun Ryan Wolstat
Just filed something on Vesely. BC wouldn't say much on him other than he's seen him live at least three times now. #Raptors

Here's hoping he legitimately has no interest!!

[Brinbe]

Good work by Tim. Those are my exact same thoughts on Vesely, I have never seen the appeal.

[witnessraps]

Just want to throw out that:

DeMar Derozan should have gone top 5 in his draft.

Ed Davis should have gone top 5 in his draft.

We are getting a top 5 pick, along with another potentially top-10 pick.

The future is looking real bright with all these lottery picks....maybe there's a very very small chance that we show promise to be the OKC of the East and get a big free agent in 2012.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

I don't buy Vesely at #5. I think he's why BC was looking for another pick, along with maybe Biyombo. I wouldn't be surprised if BC waits until Charlotte is on the board to try to grab one if he remains, then Milwaukee. I don't think Detroit sells.

[Dr Positivity]

Posted this in the Vesely thread too, but Tim Chisholm has a good blog post outlining why he doesn't understand the appeal of Jan Vesely:

http://tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=368386

Also distressing are his turnover and foul rates. He has a very hard time holding onto the ball and his lack of lateral quickness should only raise his foul rate in the NBA when he's asked to check one-name wonders like LeBron, Carmelo and Durant.

That aside, however, there are two things that really concern me about him as a prospect. One, that he doesn't seem to have a go-to skill. People often talk about young guys needing some kind of skill to define them early because that skill helps coaches keep them out on the floor. Be it three-point shooting, rebounding, playmaking, penetrating, shot blocking, screen setting - something has to keep that player on the court so that they can develop the other areas of the game.

What's Vesely's skill? What is the one thing you can put him on the floor to do feeling relatively secure he's going to be able to do it? He can't hold position in the post, he can't handle the ball, he can't really do any one thing at an elite level, even against Euroleague competition. For him to develop as a player, he needs court time, but a coach can't keep handing him court time unless Vesely gives the coach something tangible to game plan with when he puts him out there. If length, athleticism and energy were all it took, James Singleton would still be in the NBA.

I agree with Tim's Michaelangelo-David comparison to how teams screw up drafts, but it applies way more to Valanciunas than Vesely to me. Val is the guy where teams are looking at him being 7 feet and 19 and thinking they can mold him physically and skill wise into a completley different player and that it'll happen just because he plays hard. Fran Fraschilla's JV breakdown ended with "Best Case: Pau Gasol". JV has nothing in common with Pau right now other than being a Euro 7 footer. That's a "David mistake" to me. Right now Val plays like Zaza. Teams thinking they can get an offensive star out of him cause he's young, big and plays hard is naive and it happens every draft with young bigs.

As for Vesely - I actually feel like he's a "know what you're getting" player. He's going to be an athletic guy who cuts and finishes fastbreaks offensively and who's primary help is probably defensive due to his athleticism and length at the SF. I see 12 and 6 with defense and a usable player. I wouldn't take him #5. But I wouldn't say he's someone who'll be picked with the expectation to be an offensive star and a completley different player a few years down the road. He is what he is to me.

[dTox]

Honestly, I'm fine with either Frank or Casey. I feel like Frank is more of a sure thing (and a very solid coach), but I think Casey would be fine here too. Neither is particularly inspired, nor are they perfect for a rebuilding team, but I suspect whichever guy we hire will wind up being the best coach we've had, for whatever that's worth.

Agreed, I'm on the Frank bandwagon as well. Although I think having a crappy coach like Triano for another year would've given us a few more pingpong balls in next year's draft, guys like Frank might not be available after this year. He's one of those coaches who I think is on the brink of becoming well recognized once he shows his telent with his next team, and then he'll end up being one of those "Adleman, or JVG" who seem to good to want to coach here, so might as well take the safe rout and grab him while they are still "somewhat unproven"

[Rhettmatic]

Posted this in the Vesely thread too, but Tim Chisholm has a good blog post outlining why he doesn't understand the appeal of Jan Vesely:

http://tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=368386

Also distressing are his turnover and foul rates. He has a very hard time holding onto the ball and his lack of lateral quickness should only raise his foul rate in the NBA when he's asked to check one-name wonders like LeBron, Carmelo and Durant.

That aside, however, there are two things that really concern me about him as a prospect. One, that he doesn't seem to have a go-to skill. People often talk about young guys needing some kind of skill to define them early because that skill helps coaches keep them out on the floor. Be it three-point shooting, rebounding, playmaking, penetrating, shot blocking, screen setting - something has to keep that player on the court so that they can develop the other areas of the game.

What's Vesely's skill? What is the one thing you can put him on the floor to do feeling relatively secure he's going to be able to do it? He can't hold position in the post, he can't handle the ball, he can't really do any one thing at an elite level, even against Euroleague competition. For him to develop as a player, he needs court time, but a coach can't keep handing him court time unless Vesely gives the coach something tangible to game plan with when he puts him out there. If length, athleticism and energy were all it took, James Singleton would still be in the NBA.

I agree with Tim's Michaelangelo-David comparison to how teams screw up drafts, but it applies way more to Valanciunas than Vesely to me. Val is the guy where teams are looking at him being 7 feet and 19 and thinking they can mold him physically and skill wise into a completley different player and that it'll happen just because he plays hard. Fran Fraschilla's JV breakdown ended with "Best Case: Pau Gasol". JV has nothing in common with Pau right now other than being a Euro 7 footer. That's a "David mistake" to me. Right now Val plays like Zaza. Teams thinking they can get an offensive star out of him cause he's young, big and plays hard is naive and it happens every draft with young bigs.

As for Vesely - I actually feel like he's a "know what you're getting" player. He's going to be an athletic guy who cuts and finishes fastbreaks offensively and who's primary help is probably defensive due to his athleticism and length at the SF. I see 12 and 6 with defense and a usable player. I wouldn't take him #5. But I wouldn't say he's someone who'll be picked with the expectation to be an offensive star and a completley different player a few years down the road. He is what he is to me.

I think there are major question marks about Vesely's defence, though, and that's where the David thing comes in. He can't keep anyone in front of him in Europe because his lateral quicks aren't very good. That's going to be a major problem in the NBA, where personally think he could be a pretty big liability defensively. I think people see his length and athleticism (or jumping ability, anyway) and figure that they can mould him into a good defender. I personally don't see it happening.

[Harry Palmer]

I agree with Tim's Michaelangelo-David comparison to how teams screw up drafts, but it applies way more to Valanciunas than Vesely to me.

I actually agree with his point, but his analogy was terrible. Like 'proving the opposite of what you intend' terrible.

Because he overlooks the fact that all the GM's looking at the unfinished marble think they are seeing the David trapped inside, too. They all think think they're Michelangelo at Carrera.

And it's only in retrospect that we can say they're wrong. There's no actual distinction between thinking you see a finished Pieta or power forward when you're looking at the raw product, excepting how well you make your vision reality after the fact.

And, fwiw, Michelangelo saw the same end product in the works he never finished or in failures like the San Vincenzo Martire sculpture.

In other words, if we want GM's to stop drafting raw products they think they can see as finished products, we actually want them to think less like Michaelangelo, not more.

[NH]

Love Tim's article. It should be circulated to the Raptors scouting department. Stop trying to turn players into something they are not. Bargnani is the classic case study for this. Going back to his euro days, you know all Bargs does is shoot 3s, drives, and block a few shots. Go back to Youtube to find this. We know he never had post game, nor was he going to outmuscle anyone for rebounds, yet Colangelo insisted on grabbing him to be our C. Also agree PG and Cs are the hardest position to fill. The chance of us landing Joel Przilb. is higher than landing Gasol, Jordan, or Oden. Also not much PGs in this free agency. Grabe these guys, and trade Bargs for a SF; much easier to do.

[pspot]

or wait till next years draft that has a bunch of top end SF prospects

It almost makes to much sense

[Truthrising]

or wait till next years draft that has a bunch of top end SF prospects

It almost makes to much sense

+1

I don't understand what the urgency is in grabbing a SF this year when they're all pretty much scrubs compared to the SF's that are available next year plus we should be guaranted a high picking if there's a pending lockout

[pspot]

or wait till next years draft that has a bunch of top end SF prospects

It almost makes to much sense

+1

I don't understand what the urgency is in grabbing a SF this year when they're all pretty much scrubs compared to the SF's that are available next year plus we should be guaranted a high picking if there's a pending lockout

I'm fine with JJ and even Kleiza for next year

would much rather see an upgrade and the extra time developing a prospect pg or C

[TheRealDeal]

BC selected forward Zarko Cabarkapa with the 17th overall pick in 2003

Both played pro ball in Serbia, have the same height & weight and similar playing style.

Zarko

Strengths: Great first step... Very effective driving to the basket... Quite a versatile player... Can be a matchup nightmare.

Weaknesses: Poor rebounding and defensive skills... Takes no advantage of his size in the post.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7VG77F8HbQ&playnext=1&list=PL5BFA7932553BAE53[/youtube]

[Truthrising]

or wait till next years draft that has a bunch of top end SF prospects

It almost makes to much sense

+1

I don't understand what the urgency is in grabbing a SF this year when they're all pretty much scrubs compared to the SF's that are available next year plus we should be guaranted a high picking if there's a pending lockout

I'm fine with JJ and even Kleiza for next year

would much rather see an upgrade and the extra time developing a prospect pg or C

I'd be fine with developing JJ this year I don't know if I can see him being a starting SF, I just see a lot more potential in next yrs crop of SF's.

[Alfred]

BC selected forward Zarko Cabarkapa with the 17th overall pick in 2003

Both played pro ball in Serbia, have the same height & weight and similar playing style.

Zarko

Strengths: Great first step... Very effective driving to the basket... Quite a versatile player... Can be a matchup nightmare.

Weaknesses: Poor rebounding and defensive skills... Takes no advantage of his size in the post.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7VG77F8HbQ&playnext=1&list=PL5BFA7932553BAE53[/youtube]

[RaptorReloaded]

Exactly we don't need another sf and I dont think Jan can out preform Johnson or Klieza for minutes nor do I want him to. Both players bring what Jan brings to the table plus better shooting, ball handling, experience, defense and athleticism. Only thing Vesely has is height and length that makes him look more explosive then he is.

[TheRealDeal]

BC selected forward Zarko Cabarkapa with the 17th overall pick in 2003

Both played pro ball in Serbia, have the same height & weight and similar playing style.

Zarko

Strengths: Great first step... Very effective driving to the basket... Quite a versatile player... Can be a matchup nightmare.

Weaknesses: Poor rebounding and defensive skills... Takes no advantage of his size in the post.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7VG77F8HbQ&playnext=1&list=PL5BFA7932553BAE53[/youtube]

I should have been more clear, I'm not saying Vesely is the next Zarko, just that BC has a hard-on for that type of player. He took a chance with Cabarkapa in the 1st so who's to say he won't do it again with Vesely?

[ballislife]

So apparently Biyombo's working out for the Raps today and maybe tomorrow. If anyone gets any info on this please post it.

I thnk our draft board is going to look like this come draft night...
1 Irving
2 Williams
3 Kanter
4 Knight
5 Walker

I really don't think BC and the staff will pass up on the chance of having the best college player In Kemba Walker (certainly fits the bill as BPA)... if those guys don't fall, I think Kemba is our future PG. He already loves the city and loves our system (getting up and down), as well as the young guys we have on the team, plus he's the type of leader we need to guide us going forward... Just seems like the perfect fit for this franchise moving forward. Biyombo and Vesely are also good prospects at positions of need that BC has interest in, and I think he's really trying to get another top 10 selection to pick up one of those guys. But I think Kemba's our guy at #5, and I'd be more than happy with that.

[bboyskinnylegs]

wow Vesely looks eerily similar to Zarko in that video *shudders*