2023 Draft Discussion Part 5

[ItsDanger]

What part of that article indicated they were frustrated?

"You would never take our guy at 13" indicates something to me, otherwise different language would be used. Teams trade down all the time. If people are waiting for exact confirmation from this team, you'll never get it. That's my interpretation. If I was advising my agents, I'd bypass Raps also if I don't think they're serious or fit their prototype. Their clients only have 3+ weeks to fit workouts in plus travel time. You got to trim it down somehow.

So the Raptors should share trade discussions with an independent agent to create better relationships?

Of course not. Agents are aware of these possibilities if their client is ranked 18-26, or wherever.

[WuTang_CMB]

Dan Tolzman did a Sun interview about the draft. A few quotes:

“There’s a whole crop of players that the agent says there is not a chance they will be on the board at 13 and there’s another crop of players whose agents say ‘you would never take our guy at 13,’ so how do you dance around that and convince both sides ‘let’s be ready for anything that happens on draft night?'” Tolzman said of the Raptors’ position.

Further limiting the number of players that will view Toronto as a viable option and therefore worthy of a workout visit is the team’s lack of a second-round pick this year, which belongs to San Antonio courtesy of the Jakob Poeltl trade.

“That changes the dynamic of the whole other group of players that we are able to usually bring in,” Tolzman said. “Those players need to prioritize other teams that have second-round picks. We are kind of stuck in that convincing lottery guys to come in and work out and then filling in workouts around that with the best players we can.”

“It could be all over the place for that next group of players (after the top three) in terms of the actual order,” Tolzman said. “Maybe some ordering will sort itself out over the next couple of weeks, but it does seem that more so than in previous years, the randomness to the order seems to be a little bit more than usual.”

https://torontosun.com/sports/basketball/nba/toronto-raptors/lucky-13th-pick-in-draft

The way Tolzman sounds every year it always is Raptors trying to convince guys for workouts, and no matter where we are picking, guys say they won't be available. Frustrating. I wish we be more in control of the draft rather than waiting for things to happen all the time.

He does have a point about the randomness factor this year. I think a guy like Jett Howard or Brice Sensibaugh might sneak into the lottery, or a Cason Wallace or Nick Smith Jr. drops because of injury concerns. I also have no idea how the GMs perceive the Thompson twins who are older and playing in a weird league.

The guy I have no clue about is Cam Whitmore. Everyone seems to rate him as a high lotto pick and I don't get it. Good athlete but he has short wingspan, doesn't pass, and isn't a great shooter and this was a rare bad Villanova team. To me, he is Justice Winslow/Stanley Johnson all over again. All highlights and projections, but offers little substance as a prospect.

Thanks for sharing. Yeah Tolzman always says that every year about the workouts. I think it goes to how we are detailed and want to see a lot of guys vs other teams at the top are content with 2-3 guys so they dont push the agents as much. This is something we deal with every year because of how we operate. Still, no excuses at 13. We need to hit

[ATLTimekeeper]

"You would never take our guy at 13" indicates something to me, otherwise different language would be used. Teams trade down all the time. If people are waiting for exact confirmation from this team, you'll never get it. That's my interpretation. If I was advising my agents, I'd bypass Raps also if I don't think they're serious or fit their prototype. Their clients only have 3+ weeks to fit workouts in plus travel time. You got to trim it down somehow.

So the Raptors should share trade discussions with an independent agent to create better relationships?

Of course not. Agents are aware of these possibilities if their client is ranked 18-26, or wherever.

So then zero frustration on the agent's part. They're aware that the Raptors could trade down, but since that's unlikely they would rather steer their clients to teams within their projected range.

[Psubs]

There's a lot of good discusion on here but for some reason, I can see it go down like this:
And with the 13th pick, the Raptors select ***so and so***
Raptor fans and media - who the hell is ***So and so***?

That would be Bilal Coulibaly or Sidy Cissoko.

The trauma from Bruno still lives on to this day. Dalano Banton was a 2nd round pick so that was okay. Only Garza and Mamu, taken after Banton, have had any success as backup bigs.

[MavCarter]

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[Dalek]

Dan Tolzman did a Sun interview about the draft. A few quotes:

“There’s a whole crop of players that the agent says there is not a chance they will be on the board at 13 and there’s another crop of players whose agents say ‘you would never take our guy at 13,’ so how do you dance around that and convince both sides ‘let’s be ready for anything that happens on draft night?'” Tolzman said of the Raptors’ position.

Further limiting the number of players that will view Toronto as a viable option and therefore worthy of a workout visit is the team’s lack of a second-round pick this year, which belongs to San Antonio courtesy of the Jakob Poeltl trade.

“That changes the dynamic of the whole other group of players that we are able to usually bring in,” Tolzman said. “Those players need to prioritize other teams that have second-round picks. We are kind of stuck in that convincing lottery guys to come in and work out and then filling in workouts around that with the best players we can.”

“It could be all over the place for that next group of players (after the top three) in terms of the actual order,” Tolzman said. “Maybe some ordering will sort itself out over the next couple of weeks, but it does seem that more so than in previous years, the randomness to the order seems to be a little bit more than usual.”

https://torontosun.com/sports/basketball/nba/toronto-raptors/lucky-13th-pick-in-draft

The way Tolzman sounds every year it always is Raptors trying to convince guys for workouts, and no matter where we are picking, guys say they won't be available. Frustrating. I wish we be more in control of the draft rather than waiting for things to happen all the time.

He does have a point about the randomness factor this year. I think a guy like Jett Howard or Brice Sensibaugh might sneak into the lottery, or a Cason Wallace or Nick Smith Jr. drops because of injury concerns. I also have no idea how the GMs perceive the Thompson twins who are older and playing in a weird league.

The guy I have no clue about is Cam Whitmore. Everyone seems to rate him as a high lotto pick and I don't get it. Good athlete but he has short wingspan, doesn't pass, and isn't a great shooter and this was a rare bad Villanova team. To me, he is Justice Winslow/Stanley Johnson all over again. All highlights and projections, but offers little substance as a prospect.

Thanks for sharing. Yeah Tolzman always says that every year about the workouts. I think it goes to how we are detailed and want to see a lot of guys vs other teams at the top are content with 2-3 guys so they dont push the agents as much. This is something we deal with every year because of how we operate. Still, no excuses at 13. We need to hit

This has happened with picks in the 30s and I understand that to a degree. At 13, I also kind of wonder whether agents are implying that Toronto is not a preferred landing spot for their guy and this is just a soft way to break it to Tolzman and co. If Toronto was in a US market would it make a difference?

It is a pity that these players aren't going to Toronto for workouts and to see the city and facilities. They are missing out.

[BoyzNTheHood]

Dan Tolzman did a Sun interview about the draft. A few quotes:



https://torontosun.com/sports/basketball/nba/toronto-raptors/lucky-13th-pick-in-draft

The way Tolzman sounds every year it always is Raptors trying to convince guys for workouts, and no matter where we are picking, guys say they won't be available. Frustrating. I wish we be more in control of the draft rather than waiting for things to happen all the time.

He does have a point about the randomness factor this year. I think a guy like Jett Howard or Brice Sensibaugh might sneak into the lottery, or a Cason Wallace or Nick Smith Jr. drops because of injury concerns. I also have no idea how the GMs perceive the Thompson twins who are older and playing in a weird league.

The guy I have no clue about is Cam Whitmore. Everyone seems to rate him as a high lotto pick and I don't get it. Good athlete but he has short wingspan, doesn't pass, and isn't a great shooter and this was a rare bad Villanova team. To me, he is Justice Winslow/Stanley Johnson all over again. All highlights and projections, but offers little substance as a prospect.

Thanks for sharing. Yeah Tolzman always says that every year about the workouts. I think it goes to how we are detailed and want to see a lot of guys vs other teams at the top are content with 2-3 guys so they dont push the agents as much. This is something we deal with every year because of how we operate. Still, no excuses at 13. We need to hit

This has happened with picks in the 30s and I understand that to a degree. At 13, I also kind of wonder whether agents are implying that Toronto is not a preferred landing spot for their guy and this is just a soft way to break it to Tolzman and co. If Toronto was in a US market would it make a difference?

It is a pity that these players aren't going to Toronto for workouts and to see the city and facilities. They are missing out.

I wouldn’t put ignorance past Americans. It’s a part of their culture.

[Dalek]

What kind of agent tells a team "You would never take our guy at 13"? Unless he's projected to go late first or 2nd round. And on the other side, how arrogant do you have to be to tell teams that there's no chance that your client will fall on draft night? If Tolzman is actually dealing with this then there's probably only going to be like 10-15 players that are going to work out for the Raps.

I also agree with you about Cam Whitmore, I just don't see it. A big red flag for me is when I heard someone say that he needs to speed up his decision making and the speed at which he processes the game, but he was still taking Cam 5th in his mock draft lol. Physical gifts are great, but if you can't read the game at a high level then your best case scenario is as a low level starter or bench player.

Agents love to play these games and have their preferred landing spots for players. Maybe there are promises already in place, so it is hard to tell.

One observation: If this workout situation is limited, than there is less pressure for bringing in a coach and getting things settled before the draft.

In the article, but I forgot to quote was Tolzman said that talent trumps positional need. Toronto should have a board of the best players in the lottery, so it is pretty straightforward to an extent. Guys like Wallace and Smith Jr. and Whitehead all scare me if they don't work out for us. I don't trust their bodies at all.

[Reeko]

Thanks for sharing. Yeah Tolzman always says that every year about the workouts. I think it goes to how we are detailed and want to see a lot of guys vs other teams at the top are content with 2-3 guys so they dont push the agents as much. This is something we deal with every year because of how we operate. Still, no excuses at 13. We need to hit

This has happened with picks in the 30s and I understand that to a degree. At 13, I also kind of wonder whether agents are implying that Toronto is not a preferred landing spot for their guy and this is just a soft way to break it to Tolzman and co. If Toronto was in a US market would it make a difference?

It is a pity that these players aren't going to Toronto for workouts and to see the city and facilities. They are missing out.

I wouldn’t put ignorance past Americans. It’s a part of their culture.

Please, just stop.

[Dalek]

Read on Twitter

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I remember him saying that in a pod cast. Cason is baby Kawhi because of the defense, but also because he is on the quiet side. I don't know if I like that aspect. I like some vocal leadership from the lead guard - guys like Banton and Flynn are so mousey.

[OakleyDokely]

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Kawhi wouldn't be Kawhi if he wasn't 6'7 with a 7'3 wingspan, 10 inch hands and built like a **** tank.

[WuTang_CMB]

Read on Twitter

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Barlow has to chill. He was comparing Kamagate to KG last yr.

[BoyzNTheHood]

This has happened with picks in the 30s and I understand that to a degree. At 13, I also kind of wonder whether agents are implying that Toronto is not a preferred landing spot for their guy and this is just a soft way to break it to Tolzman and co. If Toronto was in a US market would it make a difference?

It is a pity that these players aren't going to Toronto for workouts and to see the city and facilities. They are missing out.

I wouldn’t put ignorance past Americans. It’s a part of their culture.

Please, just stop.

Yeah, I guess I should because the countless examples you see every day aren’t enough evidence to make a statement.

[Reeko]

What kind of agent tells a team "You would never take our guy at 13"? Unless he's projected to go late first or 2nd round. And on the other side, how arrogant do you have to be to tell teams that there's no chance that your client will fall on draft night? If Tolzman is actually dealing with this then there's probably only going to be like 10-15 players that are going to work out for the Raps.

I also agree with you about Cam Whitmore, I just don't see it. A big red flag for me is when I heard someone say that he needs to speed up his decision making and the speed at which he processes the game, but he was still taking Cam 5th in his mock draft lol. Physical gifts are great, but if you can't read the game at a high level then your best case scenario is as a low level starter or bench player.

Agents love to play these games and have their preferred landing spots for players. Maybe there are promises already in place, so it is hard to tell.

One observation: If this workout situation is limited, than there is less pressure for bringing in a coach and getting things settled before the draft.

In the article, but I forgot to quote was Tolzman said that talent trumps positional need. Toronto should have a board of the best players in the lottery, so it is pretty straightforward to an extent. Guys like Wallace and Smith Jr. and Whitehead all scare me if they don't work out for us. I don't trust their bodies at all.

Yeah, that's generally the M.O. of most smart front offices, you go with the BPA. You don't draft for positional need, that's how the Trail Blazers ended up with Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan. If our FO thinks that GG Jackson has All NBA potential down the road and think that George, Bufkin, and Coulibaly top out as role players, then guess what? They're probably going to take the forward with the higher upside even if the team does need a guard badly.

[Zeno]

There is talk that the Spurs want to get into the late lotto, probably to take Wemby's teammate or something. Imagine the offered us all the stuff from the Poeltl and Thad trades(2024 1st, our 2023 2nd, our 2025, Branham) for 13, Thad. Would you do it? This would essentially undo all previous trades and become Poeltl for the 13th pick.

[BoyzNTheHood]

What kind of agent tells a team "You would never take our guy at 13"? Unless he's projected to go late first or 2nd round. And on the other side, how arrogant do you have to be to tell teams that there's no chance that your client will fall on draft night? If Tolzman is actually dealing with this then there's probably only going to be like 10-15 players that are going to work out for the Raps.

I also agree with you about Cam Whitmore, I just don't see it. A big red flag for me is when I heard someone say that he needs to speed up his decision making and the speed at which he processes the game, but he was still taking Cam 5th in his mock draft lol. Physical gifts are great, but if you can't read the game at a high level then your best case scenario is as a low level starter or bench player.

Agents love to play these games and have their preferred landing spots for players. Maybe there are promises already in place, so it is hard to tell.

One observation: If this workout situation is limited, than there is less pressure for bringing in a coach and getting things settled before the draft.

In the article, but I forgot to quote was Tolzman said that talent trumps positional need. Toronto should have a board of the best players in the lottery, so it is pretty straightforward to an extent. Guys like Wallace and Smith Jr. and Whitehead all scare me if they don't work out for us. I don't trust their bodies at all.

Yeah, that's generally the M.O. of most smart front offices, you go with the BPA. You don't draft for positional need, that's how the Trail Blazers ended up with Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan. If our FO thinks that GG Jackson has All NBA potential down the road and think that George, Bufkin, and Coulibaly top out at role players, then guess what? They're probably going to take the forward with the higher upside even if the team does need a guard badly.

That’s untrue. BPA isn’t always the best option. If the BPA is a guy who will be stuck as a backup or on the bench it makes no sense to draft them. If a guy fits into your system like a glove it can be better for the long term than drafting a guy who doesn’t fit at all but has the most talent.

[Reeko]

Agents love to play these games and have their preferred landing spots for players. Maybe there are promises already in place, so it is hard to tell.

One observation: If this workout situation is limited, than there is less pressure for bringing in a coach and getting things settled before the draft.

In the article, but I forgot to quote was Tolzman said that talent trumps positional need. Toronto should have a board of the best players in the lottery, so it is pretty straightforward to an extent. Guys like Wallace and Smith Jr. and Whitehead all scare me if they don't work out for us. I don't trust their bodies at all.

Yeah, that's generally the M.O. of most smart front offices, you go with the BPA. You don't draft for positional need, that's how the Trail Blazers ended up with Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan. If our FO thinks that GG Jackson has All NBA potential down the road and think that George, Bufkin, and Coulibaly top out at role players, then guess what? They're probably going to take the forward with the higher upside even if the team does need a guard badly.

That’s untrue. BPA isn’t always the best option. If the BPA is a guy who will be stuck as a backup or on the bench it makes no sense to draft them. If a guy fits into your system like a glove it can be better for the long term than drafting a guy who doesn’t fit at all but has the most talent.

Well I guess it would be true in most instances, except for in your very specific scenario.

[BoyzNTheHood]

Yeah, that's generally the M.O. of most smart front offices, you go with the BPA. You don't draft for positional need, that's how the Trail Blazers ended up with Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan. If our FO thinks that GG Jackson has All NBA potential down the road and think that George, Bufkin, and Coulibaly top out at role players, then guess what? They're probably going to take the forward with the higher upside even if the team does need a guard badly.

That’s untrue. BPA isn’t always the best option. If the BPA is a guy who will be stuck as a backup or on the bench it makes no sense to draft them. If a guy fits into your system like a glove it can be better for the long term than drafting a guy who doesn’t fit at all but has the most talent.

Well I guess it would be true in most instances, except for in your very specific scenario.

My scenario is only very specific if you aren’t paying attention. There are countless examples of teams drafting the BPA and it not working out. Many players fail because of fit. You just choose to write them off as busts because you don’t understand.

[MavCarter]

There is talk that the Spurs want to get into the late lotto, probably to take Wemby's teammate or something. Imagine the offered us all the stuff from the Poeltl and Thad trades(2024 1st, our 2023 2nd, our 2025, Branham) for 13, Thad. Would you do it? This would essentially undo all previous trades and become Poeltl for the 13th pick.

Only thing valuable in there is our first and every draft expert has called next years draft complete garbage so i’d rather 2024 be the year we give up a pick for jak

[Reeko]

That’s untrue. BPA isn’t always the best option. If the BPA is a guy who will be stuck as a backup or on the bench it makes no sense to draft them. If a guy fits into your system like a glove it can be better for the long term than drafting a guy who doesn’t fit at all but has the most talent.

Well I guess it would be true in most instances, except for in your very specific scenario.

My scenario is only very specific if you aren’t paying attention. There are countless examples of teams drafting the BPA and it not working out. Many players fail because of fit. You just choose to write them off as busts because you don’t understand.

Your scenario is very specific because it's very specific. Generally speaking, and especially for teams drafting in the lottery, the conventional wisdom for smart FO's is to take the BPA. The really good teams drafting at the end of the first round can afford to draft for positional need and fit.