Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8

[Leolovinliberal]

And the irony is, if you look at his stats and advanced stats, he isn't even a great shooter. HB is over hyped to the point of absurdity

James Harden is on another level than Harrison Barnes. He's on another level than Brad Beal too, so you know I'm not hating. But I'll still take Beal over Barnes 10/10 times. I was one of Harrison's defenders when people said he didn't show up in big situations, but he's proved me wrong. He shows up in the regular season, but when it's winning time the guy has gone ghost. So what happens when we make the playoffs and we need him? The Harden comparison is nice to try and say a bad tourney doesn't guarantee failure, but there's a HUGE talent difference there too.

It takes a man to admit that he was wrong, props to you. HB is so over rated it is incredible. He is average at everything. Not one players lives off of his high school hype as much as Barnes.

The only obvious skill Barnes has at the NBA level is shooting, but do we really need a majority spot up shooter? Is that going to catapult us to success? Barnes supporters need to ask themselves that. It's always been reaching at straws to defend anything outside of his shooting.

[Marlo Stanfield]

I should say translatable skill to the NBA. With a more open court he should be able to shoot very well in my opinion.

[CunningLinguist]

James Harden is on another level than Harrison Barnes. He's on another level than Brad Beal too, so you know I'm not hating. But I'll still take Beal over Barnes 10/10 times. I was one of Harrison's defenders when people said he didn't show up in big situations, but he's proved me wrong. He shows up in the regular season, but when it's winning time the guy has gone ghost. So what happens when we make the playoffs and we need him? The Harden comparison is nice to try and say a bad tourney doesn't guarantee failure, but there's a HUGE talent difference there too.

I'm not suggesting Barnes is as good as Harden. But they share some similarities in that they suffered from the same criticisms about they're lack of athleticism/explosiveness. What always set Harden apart in my mind was his court sense/playmaking ability which has carried over to the pro game.

I think people are missing the point. There are people who liked Barnes all year that are changing their opinions based on one game (not unlike the Raptors game threads).

If Anthony Davis sh_t the bed in this tournament would it dissuade you from drafting him #1? It shouldn't. (and I'm not comparing them as equal prospects by any stretch of the imagination).

I know exactly what you're saying, but Harrison can have good games all he wants and the fact remains that he shoots EXTREMELY well, but provides little else. I don't think I'm hopping off the bandwagon after one game, he's been steadily dropping down my personal Raptors draft board all season to be honest. He was my #1, now he's my #6. His handles have always turned me off his game. Yes, he has a little bit of craftiness to his offense, but against NBA defenders that won't work. I've seen NCAA college players who won't even sniff the D-League defend Barnes well and that worries me.

I understand and share your concerns about ballhandling, but I've seen a lot of potential in his post game that will likely make him more than one dimensional. I actually prefer Lamb based on his handle (another guy people have abandoned because he's out of sight/out of mind)

[Leolovinliberal]

I should say translatable skill to the NBA. With a more open court he should be able to shoot very well in my opinion.

I think the exact opposite. He can't create his own shot, he needs a great pg to find him his open spots. Last night he didn't have Marshall, ad it showed as he was shut down by 6'2 guards from the University of Ohio. In the NBA he will have a tremendously hard time getting his shot off.

[Marlo Stanfield]

I understand and share your concerns about ballhandling, but I've seen a lot of potential in his post game that will likely make him more than one dimensional. I actually prefer Lamb based on his handle (another guy people have abandoned because he's out of sight/out of mind)

I hope you're right about the post game. The Lamb hype has quieted down after UConn was eliminated, but he's still #4 for me, behind Davis, Beal and MKG.

I should say translatable skill to the NBA. With a more open court he should be able to shoot very well in my opinion.

I think the exact opposite. He can't create his own shot, he needs a great pg to find him his open spots. Last night he didn't have Marshall, ad it showed as he was shut down by 6'2 guards from the University of Ohio. In the NBA he will have a tremendously hard time getting his shot off.

That's my worry as well and when I say ball handling, shot creation is included. I hate having a team where one guy has to create everything for everyone else. See: 2011/12 Chicago Bulls.

[Undefeated]

It was clear Barnes had an off night yesterday. But obviously some choose to ignore that Barnes scored 5 of UNC's 10 points in OT last night. And stats have proven Barnes is creating more of his own shots this year than relying on Kendall Marshall to find him.

[Marlo Stanfield]

:lol: It was clear Barnes had an off night yesterday. But obviously some choose to ignore that Barnes scored 5 of UNC's 10 points in OT last night. And stats have proven Barnes is creating more of his own shots this year than relying on Kendall Marshall to find him.

There's a difference between NCAA defenders and NBA defenders, and NCAA handles versus NBA handles. For example, in yesterdays game after a whistle Amare just nonchalantly takes the ball with his off hand and goes behind the back and through the legs like nothing. There are even videos with Blake Griffin doing tricks with two basketballs showing off amazing handles. What I'm saying is, in the NBA you need more than an average handle to even be a big, whereas Barnes will be going up against some of the best NBA wing defenders on a nightly basis trying to strip the ball from him, and they'll get it.

[raptor jesus]

Looking forward to Robinson - and Withey - facing the UNC front court. Not too long ago I was hoping a team in front of us took Robinson. Now, he's one of the few guys I want. Strength, athleticism, toughness, back to basket, face up, ball handling; truly a multi-faceted big man.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/freeportkid

I work @StatSheet and am also a contributor at ACCSports.com, Tobacco Road Blues, and HoopSpeakU.

Couple recent tweets from Freeport kid re: HB aka The Wack Falcon. Have a look at the rest, if you haven't. Big stat geek/UNC fan, DX has linked to him. He wants to like Barnes. I'd like an update on the mid-range stats which were around 35% one the season last time.

March 23- Barnes now leads UNC in ball-handling TOs (15), offensive fouls (15), and traveling violations (10)-- many after multiple dribbles.

March 22- Update on UNC's defensive player of the game awards (voted on by staff after film review): Zeller 12, Bullock 7, Henson 5, Watts 4, McAdoo 3, Strickland 2, Marshall 2, Hairston 1, Hubert 1, Barnes 0; last 6 games have been won by: McAdoo (3x), Watts (2x) & Zeller

[delaney8]

:lol: It was clear Barnes had an off night yesterday. But obviously some choose to ignore that Barnes scored 5 of UNC's 10 points in OT last night. And stats have proven Barnes is creating more of his own shots this year than relying on Kendall Marshall to find him.

The problem is we expected greater improvement than we've seen and not just last night but all season long. He just doesn't produce like an elite NBA prospect should in his Soph year. I really wanted him to be good. Sucks that he isn't.

[sunny]

I don't understand the desire people have for Barnes. It isn't about his basketball abilities, for whatever reason, people just yearn to like him.

Maybe its because he was hyped in highschool and compared to Kobe that some people have been on the bandwagon for too long, they don't want to get off of it.

Boggles my mind.

[sunny]

I also find it weird how everyone (myself included) dismisses Lamb's performance in college as being poor. He still averaged close to 18 points.

Maybe its because our expectations of him are that high.

[CunningLinguist]

I don't understand the desire people have for Barnes. It isn't about his basketball abilities, for whatever reason, people just yearn to like him.

Maybe its because he was hyped in highschool and compared to Kobe that some people have been on the bandwagon for too long, they don't want to get off of it.

Boggles my mind.

I hope I don't leave the impression that I think he's the be all and end all. He's not even in my top 5 prospects in the draft. I just object to the fickleness demonstrated after any of these players have a good or bad game. I try to look at a player's strength and weaknesses objectively. Barnes has his weaknesses but he's not just this spot up shooter that he's often characterized as.

By the way, does anybody else wish they could create a super small forward by combining MKG and Barnes?

[JamesNaismith]

I also find it weird how everyone (myself included) dismisses Lamb's performance in college as being poor. He still averaged close to 18 points.

Maybe its because our expectations of him are that high.

I said this about a hour ago in a thread discussing Lamb vs Beal in the Draft forum.

I think it really speaks volumes about how good Lamb is and can be when he is the TOP scoring wing prospect right now YET we are all saying he doesn't play aggressive enough. I said a while ago that I like JL as our pick but I won't lie I also had a hard time passing on Beal because he looks like a solid player as well.

[mathgeek]

Both Barnes and Perry Jones have disappointed this season. Also, I really do not see what is so special about Anthony Davis, yes he dominates other smaller players or slower players on defence but when he faces a big guy like Cody Zeller he is average.

[sunny]

I also find it weird how everyone (myself included) dismisses Lamb's performance in college as being poor. He still averaged close to 18 points.

Maybe its because our expectations of him are that high.

I said this about a hour ago in a thread discussing Lamb vs Beal in the Draft forum.

I think it really speaks volumes about how good Lamb is and can be when he is the TOP scoring wing prospect right now YET we are all saying he doesn't play aggressive enough. I said a while ago that I like JL as our pick but I won't lie I also had a hard time passing on Beal because he looks like a solid player as well.

maybe its our expectations? maybe its because beal plays with more energy/swag?

I really don't know. Lamb is going to a great player IMO and will be able to utilize his skill set much more in the nba than he did for uconn.

[BillyGM]

1st round pick: Harrison Barnes/ Bradley Beal/ MKG/ Jeremy Lamb
2nd round pick: Quincy Miller/ Marquettes Jae Crowder or Darius Johnson Odom/ Tyshawn Taylor/ Myck Kabongo/ Tony Wroten/ Draymond Green

[CunningLinguist]

quote="Leolovinliberal" Man, you love over hyped under performing players, huh? Can you name me one college player of similar size and stature to Drummond that put up similar stats who was drafted in the lottery and went on to become an NBA All Star or at least have a very long and productive career? Just one.

My what a very long and interesting list of criteria you have there.

Well how about the freshman years of these gentlemen for starters:

Tim Duncan
Akeem Olajuwon (as he was then known)
Rasheed Wallace
Antonio McDyess
David Robinson

And, no I'm not comparing Drummond to them as players, just comparing freshman stats to point out the warptness of your criteria.

The point is, you have to look at how a player is likely to translate to the next level rather than relying simply on production in college. Drummond has a lot of potential. Whether on not he reaches it is anyone's guess.

[Undefeated]

Contrary to what the numbers posted above tell, I've seen Barnes greatly improve his ball security. It's really over exaggerated how Barnes won't be able to protect the ball in the NBA with more room to operate. Firstly, UNC has relied on Barnes heavily this year to score when they can't get into their initial sets running the cross screen for Tyler Zeller and John Henson, and with those two camping underneath the basket for offensive rebounding opportunities, it forces the defense to pack the paint making Barnes' job to get in the paint that much harder. Despite the packed paint, Barnes is doing a much better job of using his body to shield the defender away from stealing the ball off him such as getting low on his dribble, using his off hand to shield the ball, and dribbling on the side of his body putting his mid section between the ball and the defender. You reach, he teach. Secondly, 15 sturnovers over what a 37 game span is remotely conducive. No one else on UNC attacks the basket from the wing as much as Barnes does. I'm not going to let one game cloud my judgement of Barnes as a prospect over what he's accomplished throughout the season.

[Undefeated]

I don't understand the desire people have for Barnes. It isn't about his basketball abilities, for whatever reason, people just yearn to like him.

Maybe its because he was hyped in highschool and compared to Kobe that some people have been on the bandwagon for too long, they don't want to get off of it.

Boggles my mind.

Could be Barnes' game is more suited as a pro than an amateur college ball player ?