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Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#941 » by FluLikeSymptoms » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:08 am

TDotRep wrote:
FluLikeSymptoms wrote:
yayotube wrote:With regards to Kanter's defense via DX:

Defensively, Kanter had some excellent possessions in practice, coming up with some blocks by being a step ahead of the play and contesting shots with his positioning, rather than his athleticism. His body helps him fight for position on the block, and his physical nature allowed him to deny penetration when his man attempted to take him off the dribble. Once the shot goes up, Kanter does a nice job of sealing off his man and pursuing the ball. Though his ability to rebound outside of his area wasn’t as apparent as it was in junior play, he’s still, more often than not, the player coming down with the ball in a crowd.


This is the pre-Hoop Summit practice with other Euro team members. The game didn't matter much, the practice matters less. Who is to say he could even hang with Sullinger a year later, who I don't really like as an NBA prospect? Could he have repeated that performance the next day?

I hope Kanter is good, but I don't know how anybody could be confident one way or the other. It's hard to expect him to out-play NBA players consistently based on what he's been able to show, which is what he'd have to do if his physical makeup isn't special. Beasting Harrellson in practice, somebody who probably couldn't get signed by an agent, means nada to me.

Again, if he blows off ANY part of the pre-draft process I'm out.


Nazr Muhammid got slapped around in a one on one situation vs. kanter, and I think everyone could agree Mr. Muhammid is not slack on the defensive end.


Nazr was a pretty good post defender a few years ago, no doubt. That could be something. But the question was of Kanter's defence, and Nazr is a garbage scorer, and who knows what the situation was. Was it half-court 1-on-1 or a 5-on-5 game? If he can run down the floor, post up a guy like Nazr and "take it to him", repeatedly, that's something, even though Nazr, while long, is about 6'9 and 33 years old.

Of course I want the guy to be big and great and draft him is he is. I have no agenda, I like the top two locks, liked Barnes, and that's it. But there are no athletes in the world like NBA starters, particularly the bigs, so if a guy doesn't have tools it's tough to bet on him, particularly when he hasn't played regular, competitive ball since high school.

It's not that it's impossible to succeed being undersized but it makes the odds of offensive success worse and defence difficult to play without other attributes to compensate. Playing the odds is all you're doing in the draft. That Hoop Summit vid makes him look quite short but we'll see about that in Chicago if he goes, and we'll know if he borrowed Cole Aldrich's shoes before any pre-Chicago measurements finding him to be 6'11. We'll see if he still wants to play PF, too.

If Kanter measures out well in Chicago, crushes everybody 1-on-1, drains jumpers in drills, speaks intelligently, wants to bang, comes to Toronto twice to work out and Jim Kelly hates him, I'm in.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#942 » by MEDIC » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:15 am

FluLikeSymptoms wrote:We'll see if he still wants to play PF, too.


He's already made some suggestions that he's a PF.......but on our team with the skinny 6'9" PF duo & our 7 foot 260 lb-er that wants to play SF...............he's definitely our C.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#943 » by chrisanna » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:20 am

Maybe thats the plan. Maybe BC and Maurizio know alot about him and want to pair him with Bargnani next year? Sounds like a BC thing to do.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#944 » by raps_aviator » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:50 am

He is working out with Tim Grover. I really want to see some new clips! To see if Tim actually got Kanter more athtletic and quicker
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#945 » by BlackIce » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

I think that Kanter goes 3 no question, and I'm not even sure we draft that high. We could always drop, but if we do get that 3 spot we should take Kanter no question IMO. We'll see after workouts, I think they treat him favorably.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#946 » by careful » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:50 am

Eddie Curry was working out with Tim Grover, so I don't think that means much.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#947 » by fredericklove » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:15 am

Wham! wrote:
MEDIC wrote:
Yeah, I'd consider picking him at 6. Along with Terrence Jones (& whoever else drops).

.


Though I don't really want Walker, at 6 I could understand, but Terrence Jones I'd stay away from. He's got a poor motor/effort is inconsistent, and has no outstanding skill to hang his hat on. I might be more tempted to reach on a player like Kawhi Leonard if you want 3/4..at least he's highly athletic with a great motor and rebounding skills.


but u know what, despite TJ showing his poor effort and weaknesses during the tourney he was however played outstandingly throughout the whole regular season in terms of scoring and rebounding, he had the length and skillset for the SF position, I wouldn't write him off this quickly and we should consider him as an option if we drop to 6th spot.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#948 » by fredericklove » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:22 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:Kanter reminds me of Greg Monroe and Luis Scola, to name two players


And David Lee and Kevin Love.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#949 » by fredericklove » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:32 am

MEDIC wrote:
FluLikeSymptoms wrote:We'll see if he still wants to play PF, too.


He's already made some suggestions that he's a PF.......but on our team with the skinny 6'9" PF duo & our 7 foot 260 lb-er that wants to play SF...............he's definitely our C.


Agree, I don't see how bad it could end up for us if he was our C. The guy is a banger with good skill-set and high IQ. He probably won't average 21 pts but the dropoff can't be this far off (maybe 10-15+ points?) and most certainly won't avg 5 reb per game. I don't think he'll be as worst as Bargnani when it comes to help defense either lol. So he's most certainly an upgrade over Bargnani in terms of everything other than scoring.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#950 » by JamesNaismith » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:43 am

Outside of the top 2; this draft is just f*cking depressing.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#951 » by Silk Wilkes » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:51 am

fredericklove wrote:
Dr Mufasa wrote:Kanter reminds me of Greg Monroe and Luis Scola, to name two players


And David Lee and Kevin Love.


If his defense is like theirs and we pick him we're screwed. I doubt it though.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#952 » by JYD » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:55 am

CanadaB-Ball wrote:
Wham! wrote:No, that's not what I'm suggesting. But he would definitely have been more effective.

And how am I cherry picking anything with Hoffa? Name me some good C's with mediocre wingpan, hops and quickness. Again, try and look at these 3 traits specifically, don't ignore any.

I definitely have more to add on Kanter, but I must go to work, and shall return later!


Greg Monroe.


I think Monroe has pretty decent quickness for a C. At least to a degree where it gives him an advantage over other C's. That said, he's still not much of a shotblocker.

Another player someone else mentioned to me without those traits is Brad Miller, which may be a more fair comparison than Hoffa. Miller has better height for C than Kanter, but is similar in that he has average length, poor hops and isn't very quick. Miller was a good offensive player, good rebounder, and mediocre defender.

But Brad Miller went undrafted, specifically for lacking the 3 traits. For every Brad Miller or Luis Scola who manages to carve out a niche with their IQ/craftiness despite lacking any specific physical gifts, there's a ton of other players like them who can't cut it.

Another interesting comparison is a poor-man's Gortat...though Gortat is more athletic/mobile and Kanter is more polished offensively.

If Kanter projected to a double double player with good D, I'd want him. But I think double double is a stetch..I'd wager he's an 10/8 kind of guy with mediocre D at C, tops. And if we're drafting a C, I'd much rather go with a guy who actually has a chance to defend the C position well.

To comment on the college teammate thing hyping him up, that reminds me a little of one year ago and college players raving about Daniel Orton, remember that? I remember a video of Orton playing against kids as well..maybe scoring a lot but in the same way Kanter does..using more girth and everything below the rim. From memory I think Kanter looks better offensively but suffers from the same physical limitations. At one point Orton got hyped up as a lotto pick, then fell right to the bottom of the 1st round.

I think we'll see something similar with Kanter..talked about as top 5 but drafted closer to the end of the lotto.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#953 » by fredericklove » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:55 am

A few more small clips of Kanter

Recommended by Medic
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpcH0L2EPhQ&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULCCfZjS1lA&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njySJ8_cRhY&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdHwoYlcA1U&feature=related[/youtube]


Just go to 1:11, it shows a little bit of Kanter during world practice
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAPQpRAy67s&feature=related[/youtube]
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#954 » by JYD » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:58 am

fredericklove wrote:
Dr Mufasa wrote:Kanter reminds me of Greg Monroe and Luis Scola, to name two players


And David Lee and Kevin Love.


And Scola and Lee and Love are all PFs and mediocre defenders. And 2 of those players were picked very late (Scola near the bottom of the 2nd round) and Lee 30th overall. See my Brad Miller comment.

More than anything, the listing of these players (who mostly are not C's AND are not good defenders) is only reinforcing my argument.

BTW fredricklove, thanks for the vids...but I only had to open the first one to remember/determine that Kanter is slow as hell...I don't see how he can play at NBA speed with those deliberate moves and bad mobility.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#955 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:08 am

Brad Miller was a 19-20 PER guy in his prime, if Kanter is Miller that's not a bad thing.

It doesn't seem like Kanter is that slow/unathletic

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YzbhAQGPqk[/youtube]

Look at his move at :38 in particular. He makes a couple like that in the video. I don't think Kanter is any slower than Scola or Love. There are slow Cs in this league. As long as you can move around as much as Kanter does in this vid while holding your position, it's alright
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#956 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:12 am

I mean if 34 year old Miller and 38 year old Kurt Thomas have the mobility to reasonably play defense, I'm sure Kanter can
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#957 » by MEDIC » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:15 am

Wham! wrote:At one point Orton got hyped up as a lotto pick, then fell right to the bottom of the 1st round.


Orton was always projected as a very raw pick. Pretty much the opposite of Kanter. There have been more people than just Kanter's teammates that have given him good reviews.

I think we'll see something similar with Kanter..talked about as top 5 but drafted closer to the end of the lotto.


I feel completely opposite.

Right now DX has him projected as the 7th pick. I expect him to be top 5 after the workouts & possibly top 3.

Neither of us really know. We're basing this on the very limited info available unfortunately. I'm basing my projections on him being 6'10" without shoes. If he comes out of the pre-draft at 6'8" without shoes, I'll completely turn my back on the guy.

Guess we'll find out who's right after the pre-draft & even more so come draft time. :wink:
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#958 » by FluLikeSymptoms » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:16 am

fredericklove wrote:
MEDIC wrote:
FluLikeSymptoms wrote:We'll see if he still wants to play PF, too.


He's already made some suggestions that he's a PF.......but on our team with the skinny 6'9" PF duo & our 7 foot 260 lb-er that wants to play SF...............he's definitely our C.


Agree, I don't see how bad it could end up for us if he was our C. The guy is a banger with good skill-set and high IQ. He probably won't average 21 pts but the dropoff can't be this far off (maybe 10-15+ points?) and most certainly won't avg 5 reb per game. I don't think he'll be as worst as Bargnani when it comes to help defense either lol. So he's most certainly an upgrade over Bargnani in terms of everything other than scoring.


I meant that, if he still wants to play PF then he might always want to play PF and that could be a problem. I can't think of a guy who changed his mind about that, off the top of my head. We know that NBA players don't do anything they don't want to do or feel compelled to do for long, if ever, and if you don't like to bang on both ends then you don't want to play C, ever. If Ed can't beef up we'd need to continue looking for our first real C on the upswing/prime.

And if he insists to Raps management that he's a PF, would that dissuade BC from picking him as he's not the real C he's looking to pair with Bargnani, for risk of having 4 PFs and no Cs?
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#959 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:17 am

I actually really like that Brad Miller comparison for Kanter, the more I look at it
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#960 » by phailing101 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:19 am

Thanks for the Kanter highlights.

I love his game. I think he can be a C in the NBA and would be an amazing front court with Ed.

I'm going to lose sleep at night until the lottery. We desperately need to stay top 3.
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