The Tank Debate Thread

[StMikes31]

See page 62

See page 62

Thank you both for proving my point.

Even after 3 years of best case scenario drafting you still could end up with a rebuilding team. So enough of this you only need 2-3 years to tank if you "do it right" BS, and the only reason it doesnt work out for some teams is because they "didnt draft right" excuse. As you can see by your own examples, even with perfect drafting (which rarely ever happens) you still can be stuck in the lotto 4 years later.

Lillard + Thompson + Cousins in Sac doesnt even make the playoffs in the west.

Lillard + Thompson + Alex Len(Not sure why you write off Zeller so fast btw) in Charlotte is even worse.

Plus, if both those teams took Lillard and/or Barnes + Thompson, where would Portland and GS be right now? Stuck in the lottery. As you can see in most draft years there is only a finite amount of talent to go around, and it requires a great deal of draft luck to even have a shot at them.

Contrast that to OKC, who had to pick between Durant and Horford, Green and Noah, Westbrook and Love and Harden and Curry and you can see how much draft position + draft year (In other words huge amounts of LUCK) play a role in the tank strategy.

Also, lol at San Antonio, Indiana and Memphis not being contenders. And I clearly stated that OKC was the only contending team that has two top 5 picks of theirs (aka tanked for two top 5 picks). So we can throw that BS "if we dont tank for a top 5 pick next to Val we have no shot of becoming a contender" argument out the window.

You still haven't proved anything and your argument continues to be weak.

And again you continue to not read. The whole point of tanking is to assemble an up and coming core with upside and a core of Lillard, Thompson/Leonard, Cousins would be just that. I've continued to say that tanking isn't the be all end all, it's a significant step into becoming a contender but you continue to disregard that since you know it's the truth. Trades and FA signings would obviously be used in order to increase the talent on the team and add to the young core.

Think of it this way - when we say a top 5 pick, we mean another all-star alongside Val. Since we aren't trading Rudy Gay for Durant or signing Carmelo any time soon, getting into the draft and picking in the top 5, will give you the best chance to put a future all-star next to Val (especially with next year's draft).

And you continue to shy away from my question (probably because I know you can't answer it) - How do you expect to turn this team into a contender without tanking for at least one season?

[TheRealBlizzy]

lol tank / anti tank war still goes strong.

[StMikes31]

lol tank / anti tank war still goes strong.

I think we need a Delorean lol

[Scase]

I get it, probabilistically we're better off getting a lotto pick in next years draft and adding a star to the core that way than with free agency/trading/internal development. The road to getting there however, is where I disagree with the notion of tanking; pre-emptively throwing a season and leaving your fate in the hands of ping pong balls is indicative of lack of vision.

Well our vision hasn't exactly gotten us very far in the past 7 years now has it?

You sound like every other person that is against tanking using the same excuse over and over again.

The plan isn't to just get a crappy record and hope for the best, the plan is to let rookies develop with a hell of a lot more minutes than they would have instead of pushing for 8th with a heavily flawed team. The plan is to either acquire draft picks to add to the young developing core or more players on rookie scale contracts with promise. All the while shedding salary so when the players are starting to gel in a couple years you can afford to add veterans to help push them over the edge.

Stop assuming the whole concept of tanking boils down to having a crappy season and hoping for one player and you might see a bit more vision.

[FlyLo]

I get it, probabilistically we're better off getting a lotto pick in next years draft and adding a star to the core that way than with free agency/trading/internal development. The road to getting there however, is where I disagree with the notion of tanking; pre-emptively throwing a season and leaving your fate in the hands of ping pong balls is indicative of lack of vision.

Well our vision hasn't exactly gotten us very far in the past 7 years now has it?

You sound like every other person that is against tanking using the same excuse over and over again.

The plan isn't to just get a crappy record and hope for the best, the plan is to let rookies develop with a hell of a lot more minutes than they would have instead of pushing for 8th with a heavily flawed team. The plan is to either acquire draft picks to add to the young developing core or more players on rookie scale contracts with promise. All the while shedding salary so when the players are starting to gel in a couple years you can afford to add veterans to help push them over the edge.

Stop assuming the whole concept of tanking boils down to having a crappy season and hoping for one player and you might see a bit more vision.

No, like I said, we haven't had vision over the last 7 years leading to Colangelo getting fired. Just because he didnt tank every year does not mean he had a vision, it was a series of short sighted improvised moves disguised as one.

And what you are saying about developing young players is fine and dandy but the undertone, correct me if I'm wrong, is to manipulate the roster to where we only have young players thereby leading us to a crappier record. Or its to have the coach play younger players over Rudy Gay and Kyle Lowry, good luck selling that to the coach or selling it to the players themselves. And while these players are good they aren't valuable enough to net draft picks next year, so like Masai said "what are we gonna do give our players away?". You see the rumored garbage Pistons offered for Rudy? There were no draft picks or prospects on easy salaries anyone is gonna give up for these guys right now. Its simply not feasible to shop them, maybe mid-next season Lowry will raise his value enough for a team looking for a point guard but that's incredibly unlikely, or Rudy will be the guy for a team with lots of $$$ looking for a number 2 or 3 option. Before talking about your vision you have to consider the other parties you are playing the game with. More than anything that's what Masai appears to be doing by keeping the roster light on the veterans, still young, and easy enough to abandon ship halfway. He will play from a position of strength (we can fill your need) as opposed to weakness (we need to dump these guys asap). This isnt about winning culture or some crap, this is about being competitive on and off the floor. And somewhere in my wall of text I did say I am for abandoning ship halfway if players underperform or get injured.

[Scase]

I get it, probabilistically we're better off getting a lotto pick in next years draft and adding a star to the core that way than with free agency/trading/internal development. The road to getting there however, is where I disagree with the notion of tanking; pre-emptively throwing a season and leaving your fate in the hands of ping pong balls is indicative of lack of vision.

Well our vision hasn't exactly gotten us very far in the past 7 years now has it?

You sound like every other person that is against tanking using the same excuse over and over again.

The plan isn't to just get a crappy record and hope for the best, the plan is to let rookies develop with a hell of a lot more minutes than they would have instead of pushing for 8th with a heavily flawed team. The plan is to either acquire draft picks to add to the young developing core or more players on rookie scale contracts with promise. All the while shedding salary so when the players are starting to gel in a couple years you can afford to add veterans to help push them over the edge.

Stop assuming the whole concept of tanking boils down to having a crappy season and hoping for one player and you might see a bit more vision.

No, like I said, we haven't had vision over the last 7 years leading to Colangelo getting fired. Just because he didnt tank every year does not mean he had a vision, it was a series of short sighted improvised moves disguised as one.

And what you are saying about developing young players is fine and dandy but the undertone, correct me if I'm wrong, is to manipulate the roster to where we only have young players thereby leading us to a crappier record. Or its to have the coach play younger players over Rudy Gay and Kyle Lowry, good luck selling that to the coach or selling it to the players themselves. And while these players are good they aren't valuable enough to net draft picks next year, so like Masai said "what are we gonna do give our players away?". You see the rumored garbage Pistons offered for Rudy? There were no draft picks or prospects on easy salaries anyone is gonna give up for these guys right now. Its simply not feasible to shop them, maybe mid-next season Lowry will raise his value enough for a team looking for a point guard but that's incredibly unlikely, or Rudy will be the guy for a team with lots of $$$ looking for a number 2 or 3 option. Before talking about your vision you have to consider the other parties you are playing the game with. More than anything that's what Masai appears to be doing by keeping the roster light on the veterans, still young, and easy enough to abandon ship halfway. He will play from a position of strength (we can fill your need) as opposed to weakness (we need to dump these guys asap). This isnt about winning culture or some crap, this is about being competitive on and off the floor. And somewhere in my wall of text I did say I am for abandoning ship halfway if players underperform or get injured.

Jumping ship halfway is worse than having no plan at all. You aren't bad enough to get a good enough pick and you have given up on a team that will possibly make the playoffs. I have no interest in the latter of the two as it's a pointless endeavor, therefore starting from the get go is the only real option.

I find it hard to believe that there is no market or team willing to give us anything of value for KL or RG. Bargs getting paid 10+ m/yr was able to be had for a 1st rounder and a couple of 2nd round picks. Both players in question are infinitely more useful than bargs was.

Detroit offered us the crappy package because they much like lots of other GMs assumed we were going to tank right off the bat what with the middling situation we are in coupled with a new GM. Why would they offer anything of real value if they think we are trying to just shed salary and get worse? They tried to buy low, MU refused and here we are. That doesn't instantly make KL/RG/DD untradable assets, it simply means MU called their bluff.

Teams will reassess throughout Nov and Dec which is when I expect to see some real trades happen.

As for the supposed "undertone" of a crappier product, it's simply a necessary evil. Symbiotic if you will, having a team of young players will undoubtedly lead to a bad record but, if in the grand scheme of things these young players happen to put "it" together sooner rather than later due to more playing time at the expensive of a bad record then so be it. Allowing us to couple said young players with another high pick, it's win-win.

[ImanShumpert21]

Me personally.....I'd like to see the Raptors make the playoffs this year instead of losing for a sixth consectutive year. Hopefully Rudy Gay has an elite season enough to trade him for Wiggins - whether it be trading Gay w/ or w/o bait for the #1 pick or WIggins directly.

[IvanIV]

^lol

[Stromile12]

I am optimistic about this season. I think Lowry, Gay, Derozan all will have big years and with Val coming into his second year, I believe we will make the playoffs. I don't see us intentionally tanking.

[StMikes31]

lol^

[sanity]

I gotta be honest here, I think we can qualify for the playoffs and gain invaluable experience against Miami to beat them in 2015, just as long as we can bring back Rudy and Kyle. James, Wade and Bosh are all getting old. Rudy is good enough to become elite if he keeps working on his game. Lowry is easily a top-15 pg and once Demar gets his 3pt shot I think he could be an all-star because next to Bryant and Harden there are no good sgs

[StMikes31]

I gotta be honest here, I think we can qualify for the playoffs and gain invaluable experience against Miami to beat them in 2015, just as long as we can bring back Rudy and Kyle. James, Wade and Bosh are all getting old. Rudy is good enough to become elite if he keeps working on his game. Lowry is easily a top-15 pg and once Demar gets his 3pt shot I think he could be an all-star because next to Bryant and Harden there are no good sgs

Did SwagGag hack your account? We aren't beating a team with Lebron James on it.

[Salted Meat]

Again, I'll just put this out there:

Who do you see us beating out of Miami, Chicago, Brooklyn, Indiana, or New York?
Those will, in all likelihood, be the top 5 teams in the East, which means we're guaranteed to face one of them in the first round of the playoffs, if we make it that far.

So, if we don't have a chance to beat any of them, what are we doing?

If we don't see our current roster as the one we want for the foreseeable future, what are we doing?

Are we really putting that much stock into the value of just making the playoffs, especially when two-fifths of our starting line-up could be gone at the end of the year?

[Brettfinch]

So, Lowry has been thought after his stint in Houston to become and all star, but after last season it has dropped so let's say he come close and is at least in the running for a 2014 all star bid.

Rudy Gay, should be an all star? Or once again in the runnings and while being the #1 option on the faceless Raptors, he does become one and shows what people and his Contract indicate what he should be.

Jonas Oh, Jonas the possibilities of this young man, with all these predictions and hopes for him to be a 15 and 8 big man with holding the ancor in his right hand on d should be in the running for the MIP. and legitimizing himself as a true and good/great big man in the NBA.

Now the possibilities of a team with all three of these specifics should create and above average and possible dominate team in the east and/or NBA, I know these are high hopes but are possibilities and not a flying pigs dream. I understand why tank nation has come and I hope it will leave out the same door.

(nothing going on in the board hope to bring some controversy)

Thanks

[pbj]

Chicken or the egg?

Gay will only be an all star if the Raptors are winning.. the Raptors will only win if Gay plays like an all star

[zong]

inb4 tank posts

[ishoy123]

inb4 tank posts

[LoveMyRaps]

LOL. We're tanking.
According to my sources, Lowry and Gay are gonna be traded in a week or two. (Gay to CHA for 2014 picks + Gordon is very close to being done)

Spoiler:

My sources are as reliable as Jval17 aka Kevin Rashidi

[StMikes31]

Big hopes for the 10th seed!

[DG88]

Me personally.....I'd like to see the Raptors make the playoffs this year instead of losing for a sixth consectutive year. Hopefully Rudy Gay has an elite season enough to trade him for Wiggins - whether it be trading Gay w/ or w/o bait for the #1 pick or WIggins directly.