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OakleyDokely wrote:srhcan wrote:on his way to become next Magic Johnson?
The chances are very low that he become a top 10 player of all-time.
What I mean is in this generation he can be the one playing like Magic Johnson. I think Masai hit a home run with Barnes and Masai and Nurse are bringing him up absolutely correct.
srhcan wrote:OakleyDokely wrote:srhcan wrote:on his way to become next Magic Johnson?
The chances are very low that he become a top 10 player of all-time.
Now you are taking it literally.
ATLTimekeeper wrote:Personally all I care about is results and not what it looks like. Chemistry factors in spacing/cutting/screening/leadership.
When I view ORatings with 2 man combos, they look like...
With Fred v. with Scottie
Pascal 116.8 v 115.6
Scottie 117.1 v. 117.1
OG 115.3 v. 114.7
Trent 114.2 v. 112.7
Boucher 111.9 v. 107.6
Achiuwa 117.1 v. 116.1
JP 122.1 v. 118.7
Koloko 109.5 v. 116
Only one advantage to Barnes. More to the point of chemistry, Poeltl in for Trent and no more isos to OG makes the offense look a lot smoother. This has nothing to do with Barnes or Fred, who are both really good Raptors that for weird fan reasons were put at odds. 2nd best offensive combo is Fred-Scottie! 117.1 would be the 3rd highest ORating in the league. That's good chemistry.
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Reeko wrote:ATLTimekeeper wrote:Personally all I care about is results and not what it looks like. Chemistry factors in spacing/cutting/screening/leadership.
When I view ORatings with 2 man combos, they look like...
With Fred v. with Scottie
Pascal 116.8 v 115.6
Scottie 117.1 v. 117.1
OG 115.3 v. 114.7
Trent 114.2 v. 112.7
Boucher 111.9 v. 107.6
Achiuwa 117.1 v. 116.1
JP 122.1 v. 118.7
Koloko 109.5 v. 116
Only one advantage to Barnes. More to the point of chemistry, Poeltl in for Trent and no more isos to OG makes the offense look a lot smoother. This has nothing to do with Barnes or Fred, who are both really good Raptors that for weird fan reasons were put at odds. 2nd best offensive combo is Fred-Scottie! 117.1 would be the 3rd highest ORating in the league. That's good chemistry.
Ok, and I'll point to the stats that were posted before that show how damn near every player on this team shoots better when it's Scottie passing them the ball.
ATLTimekeeper wrote:Reeko wrote:ATLTimekeeper wrote:Personally all I care about is results and not what it looks like. Chemistry factors in spacing/cutting/screening/leadership.
When I view ORatings with 2 man combos, they look like...
With Fred v. with Scottie
Pascal 116.8 v 115.6
Scottie 117.1 v. 117.1
OG 115.3 v. 114.7
Trent 114.2 v. 112.7
Boucher 111.9 v. 107.6
Achiuwa 117.1 v. 116.1
JP 122.1 v. 118.7
Koloko 109.5 v. 116
Only one advantage to Barnes. More to the point of chemistry, Poeltl in for Trent and no more isos to OG makes the offense look a lot smoother. This has nothing to do with Barnes or Fred, who are both really good Raptors that for weird fan reasons were put at odds. 2nd best offensive combo is Fred-Scottie! 117.1 would be the 3rd highest ORating in the league. That's good chemistry.
Ok, and I'll point to the stats that were posted before that show how damn near every player on this team shoots better when it's Scottie passing them the ball.
Aside from Gary I don't think there's any big difference that makes it meaningful.
srhcan wrote:on his way to become next Magic Johnson?
Raps in 4 wrote:ATLTimekeeper wrote:Reeko wrote:Ok, and I'll point to the stats that were posted before that show how damn near every player on this team shoots better when it's Scottie passing them the ball.
Aside from Gary I don't think there's any big difference that makes it meaningful.
And 1 point differences in offensive rating are meaningful?
Raps in 4 wrote:I said before that Scottie would work best best in a Jokic-type role. I stand by that assessment after last night.
I'm also ready to let him run the offence next season.
Reeko wrote:ATLTimekeeper wrote:Personally all I care about is results and not what it looks like. Chemistry factors in spacing/cutting/screening/leadership.
When I view ORatings with 2 man combos, they look like...
With Fred v. with Scottie
Pascal 116.8 v 115.6
Scottie 117.1 v. 117.1
OG 115.3 v. 114.7
Trent 114.2 v. 112.7
Boucher 111.9 v. 107.6
Achiuwa 117.1 v. 116.1
JP 122.1 v. 118.7
Koloko 109.5 v. 116
Only one advantage to Barnes. More to the point of chemistry, Poeltl in for Trent and no more isos to OG makes the offense look a lot smoother. This has nothing to do with Barnes or Fred, who are both really good Raptors that for weird fan reasons were put at odds. 2nd best offensive combo is Fred-Scottie! 117.1 would be the 3rd highest ORating in the league. That's good chemistry.
Ok, and I'll point to the stats that were posted before that show how damn near every player on this team shoots better when it's Scottie passing them the ball.
Raps in 4 wrote:I said before that Scottie would work best in a Jokic-type role. I stand by that assessment after last night.
I'm also ready to let him run the offence next season.
WuTang_OG wrote:Raps in 4 wrote:I said before that Scottie would work best in a Jokic-type role. I stand by that assessment after last night.
I'm also ready to let him run the offence next season.
Need more high post from him so he can QB to the wings (FVV, Trent, OG) or cuts inside (OG, Siakam, Achiuwa, Boucher) as he did last night. Plus high low action with him and Poeltl.
Barnes is the best surveyor on our team, it's not even a question. Nurse has to continue to trust and give him more reps. If FVV doesn't like it too bad, FVV is best when he's an off ball shot maker.
Reeko wrote:Forgive me, because I am going to bring up Fred in this post but the intention is not to bash him so much as it is to highlight Scottie.
Other than Jak, who does Fred have great chemistry with? Pascal? I wouldn't even call it great, they know how to play off of each other to a certain extent just due to how long they've been together but it doesn't seem like they're totally in synch. I'm not saying that he's a bad point guard, he's not, but his general feel for the game and awareness are not elite.
Despite a few people's claims that he's not ready to be the lead ball handler and decision maker on the court, we're seeing that he is very clearly developing great chemistry with OG and Gary. We've also seen him get Achiuwa and Boucher great looks and it seems that they excel playing next to Scottie. He has a level of understanding, awareness and desire to get others involved that is sorely lacking on this team. From what I'm seeing is when Scottie has the ball other guys know that he is looking for them and will not hesitate to give them the ball in good spots, therefore guys make themselves available to shoot or cut or get to the dunkers spot.
Now does he make mistakes? Yes he does. He makes some high risk passes that at times make you wonder what he's doing out there and his handle is not the tightest. But he's still only 21, and projecting what he can do going forward I don't see why you wouldn't want the ball in his hands as much as possible in these early stages of his career.
pingpongrac wrote:Reeko wrote:ATLTimekeeper wrote:Personally all I care about is results and not what it looks like. Chemistry factors in spacing/cutting/screening/leadership.
When I view ORatings with 2 man combos, they look like...
With Fred v. with Scottie
Pascal 116.8 v 115.6
Scottie 117.1 v. 117.1
OG 115.3 v. 114.7
Trent 114.2 v. 112.7
Boucher 111.9 v. 107.6
Achiuwa 117.1 v. 116.1
JP 122.1 v. 118.7
Koloko 109.5 v. 116
Only one advantage to Barnes. More to the point of chemistry, Poeltl in for Trent and no more isos to OG makes the offense look a lot smoother. This has nothing to do with Barnes or Fred, who are both really good Raptors that for weird fan reasons were put at odds. 2nd best offensive combo is Fred-Scottie! 117.1 would be the 3rd highest ORating in the league. That's good chemistry.
Ok, and I'll point to the stats that were posted before that show how damn near every player on this team shoots better when it's Scottie passing them the ball.
If you add all of the numbers up, teammates (excluding each other) are shooting 42.8% off of passes from Scottie while they're shooting 41.0% off of passes from FVV. Both players have registered assists on ~75% of FGM off of their passes, so it's not like you can see either one is finding teammates in their spots more often or effectively than the other. The biggest thing that skews things in Scottie's favour is his teammates take more 2FGA off of his passes (69% of attempts are 2FGA and 31% are 3FGA) whereas FVV's passes lead to more outside shots (65% of attempts are 2FGA and 35% are 3FGA) with the majority of those extra attempts coming from Siakam who hasn't been a very good shooter this season. We're talking about a marginal difference in the efficiency of the team as a whole (+/- 1.4 eFG%) while not taking into account volume, the extra FTA that may or may not be generated by either player's passes, turnover rate, etc.
Besides, I think we've started to see Scottie and FVV have a lot more chemistry together over the past few months. Scottie's FG% on the season is the highest off of passes from FVV (46.5%) with the next best being from Siakam (44.8%). FVV's FG% is much lower off of passes from Scottie (37.2%) because 2/3 of his attempts are coming from behind the arc, but they're getting good looks for each other. As another poster mentioned, their 117.1 ORTG in ~1600 minutes together is elite while it has been even better since the Poeltl acquisition (120.8 ORTG). In fact, if you look at their passing numbers since the Poeltl trade, they've both seen a huge boost in their teammates finishing; as a team we're shooting 46.6% off of passes from FVV and 47.7% off of passes from Scottie.
ATLTimekeeper wrote:Reeko wrote:ATLTimekeeper wrote:Personally all I care about is results and not what it looks like. Chemistry factors in spacing/cutting/screening/leadership.
When I view ORatings with 2 man combos, they look like...
With Fred v. with Scottie
Pascal 116.8 v 115.6
Scottie 117.1 v. 117.1
OG 115.3 v. 114.7
Trent 114.2 v. 112.7
Boucher 111.9 v. 107.6
Achiuwa 117.1 v. 116.1
JP 122.1 v. 118.7
Koloko 109.5 v. 116
Only one advantage to Barnes. More to the point of chemistry, Poeltl in for Trent and no more isos to OG makes the offense look a lot smoother. This has nothing to do with Barnes or Fred, who are both really good Raptors that for weird fan reasons were put at odds. 2nd best offensive combo is Fred-Scottie! 117.1 would be the 3rd highest ORating in the league. That's good chemistry.
Ok, and I'll point to the stats that were posted before that show how damn near every player on this team shoots better when it's Scottie passing them the ball.
Aside from Gary I don't think there's any big difference that makes it meaningful. Pascal has a lower FG% off Fred, but at much higher volume that would likely drive it down. I'd say Scottie probably gets higher %s because his offense comes more from transition play, whereas Fred is more likely to be dictating in the half court. But again, does higher %s matter much more if the offense overall is worse? I'll take the higher number. I'm arguing that chemistry isn't just passing. I think that's a simplified version of it.
Tha Cynic wrote:ATLTimekeeper wrote:Reeko wrote:Ok, and I'll point to the stats that were posted before that show how damn near every player on this team shoots better when it's Scottie passing them the ball.
Aside from Gary I don't think there's any big difference that makes it meaningful. Pascal has a lower FG% off Fred, but at much higher volume that would likely drive it down. I'd say Scottie probably gets higher %s because his offense comes more from transition play, whereas Fred is more likely to be dictating in the half court. But again, does higher %s matter much more if the offense overall is worse? I'll take the higher number. I'm arguing that chemistry isn't just passing. I think that's a simplified version of it.
How do two man combination stats work to show chemistry of a 5 man rotation? Did the NBA suddenly go to 2 man units in overtime or something? Did you even attempt to at least look at whether the two players in the stats above even connected on those possessions? Since you want to show chemistry with stats, did you do any other analysis other than a basic stat pulls like this? Did you take any factors into account at all? My analytics teams would cringe at this type of statistical presentation.
I guess you don't take eye test for any value at all either? We may as well just fire all scouts. Are you factoring in how having someone else consistently run the offense changes how a team in general plays in that offense. Are you factoring in that a new PG means you have to tweak everything in the offense and probably don't want that player to run it similar to how a guy who's more of a shooter would run it? Are you factoring in how players will now react as they grow with that passing style and expectation of high risk passes, and the ball in their favourite spots consistently, the expectation of the ball moving more for better 3 pointers?
I'm not sure if the above is an actual attempt to show how the team can get better or if it's a chance to use poor stat representation to flex muscles.
Also, Reeko made a very good point. You're making excuses for stats one way but refusing to do it the other way. This shows an ingenuous attempt to actually analyse and a focus more on trying to prove a preconceived notion.
pingpongrac wrote:Ahh, there's the classic "lol stats, FVV sucks and Scottie and Poeltl are the only reason why he's playing better and less like Westbrook" posts from Tha Cynic. I was wondering how much longer it would take.
HiJiNX wrote:My guy, I’ve given up on debating with certain individuals regarding Barnes. Your last sentence nailed it, and it’s something I said many pages ago in this thread—some folks are more motivated to defend their previously held notions on this player than they are willing to acknowledge the evidence right in front of them that maybe disproves those previously held notions.
But let’s continue comparing the results of a second year player, whose role in the offence is limited (but expanding), to a veteran who the offence is built around. Let’s continue believing Barnes isn’t good enough to run the offence through because he’s not a lights out midrange shooter or paint finisher yet. It’s like, why are we making up these rather arbitrary prerequisites to give our most talented and smartest player the damn ball? What purpose does it serve except to win an argument on the internet?
And the logic behind this notion is poor. Of course Barnes isn’t as good as f*cking Jokic yet, or FVV or Siakam or whoever—he’s a second year player! He’s not supposed to be better than those guys. The point is that Barnes has a higher ceiling than anyone else on this team (and it’s not close) and he has reached a point in his development where involving him in the offence in a more significant way is not a detriment but beneficial to the team right now and also prepares him to arrive at his immense ceiling quicker, maximizing the window he has to play with Siakam and Fred (two really good players) while they’re still in their respective primes. But let’s keep pulling stats, that do more to reflect where Barnes currently is on his developmental path than where he’s going to be in a few years as evidence that he won’t ever get there.