Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[pingpongrac]

Ahh, there's the classic "lol stats, FVV sucks and Scottie and Poeltl are the only reason why he's playing better and less like Westbrook" posts from Tha Cynic. I was wondering how much longer it would take.

All I did above was give you an example of how you can make assumptions of your own stats in a different way. I wasn't actually making any reads into your stats because you didn't actually pull anything that says anything useful.

You typically have a plan in place with a notion you want to prove before you go and pull your stats. I do believe you think you're being unbiased but you are inherently biased. If you want to do an analysis, go into it with no bias and simply look at every angle from all sides rather than trying to make it positive one way and negative another. A guy who controls the ball as much as Van Vleet does for example will typically put up stats in his sleep because he's initiating everything and he is a good player in his prime. But that doesn't mean the best thing for this team is him running the team as much as he does.

Anyway, at this stage we're also at two different levels right now. You're hellbent on today's efficiency stats and I'm looking more at modeling for future projections. I don't care about today because it's clear this team needs to move on from this core and we have seen enough of this team to know this by now. Some of us have also tried to explain to you numerous times why we don't care about current day stats, but it's like you don't care or are just completely missing the point like you just did above. What is actually important is that in an important game like yesterday's, FVV took an obvious step back to let Barnes run the offense. That's by design. Anyone can watch this game and see when the Raptors are a good TEAM and how they have to play to be a good TEAM and a team that gets better for next season.

I expect turnovers and some dumb plays from Barnes when he has the ball. That's the nature of a young player who's learning. But, I also expect a bigger ceiling being realized whereas Van Vleet is capped and what he can do for this team is capped. I didn't say he's a bad player..I never thought he was. I do think he has some bad personality traits that interfere with the way he plays and I do think he has a conflicting style and is given too much power in this organization. I think he would thrive on a different team who will hold him more accountable. For example a good coach would have held him accountable for not playing the style of game he has been playing since Poeltl joined the team. That is a choice he made. A good coach would have tried to bring this game out of him more rather than let him do Westbrook impersonations like he did for the majority of the season. But again, he has too much power here.

You can't just give Scottie the ball in every matchup and expect anywhere close to the same process, looks or results though. Did you ever stop to think why we were playing through Scottie arguably more so than ever with a mostly full lineup the other night? He had Herro and Oladipo defending him nearly the entire game aside from a few possessions where Lowry or Martin/Strus were keeping close-ish to him when Miami went zone. Those are GREAT matchups for Scottie because he has the clear height/strength advantage while neither Herro, Oladipo or Strus in particular are good or smart defenders. You look at a game like Sunday against Washington (Kispert, Delon and Porzingis for the most part from what I saw) or Milwaukee (Giannis and Middleton in limited minutes for Scottie) or Minnesota (Conley, Prince and Anderson) before the injury and it's easy to see why we chose to have someone else initiating more of the offence in those instances. That has typically been the case for most of this season as teams have adjusted to Scottie by putting more long and skilled defenders on him or even just bigger bodies in general (last season Scottie was defended by guards 45% of the time whereas that number is down to 39% this season) after he had an excellent rookie campaign.

Yes, it isn't just about the here and now – especially when it comes to Scottie. Results aren't everything and you have to take the bad with the good as he tries things out or expands his game. But we are also still trying to win in the meantime. There are certain nights where Scottie dominates and/or plays under control while picking apart the opposition's defence, but it is heavily related to matchups – just as it was with Siakam (who for a long time pick and chose his battles against less lengthy defenders as he was developing and getting comfortable with more responsibility) or FVV (who generally has had a much better go of things against players around his size for his career). As I said, the goal in the current day is to win while still developing. The best way to do that most nights is by giving our best offensive players (Siakam and FVV) the ball to get us into our offence while having Scottie and OG do more wing-oriented things (off-ball cuts, spot-ups, putbacks, etc.) with the occasional play ran for them (most notably Scottie on the elbow or in the high-post, OG coming off a pin-down or either getting a hand-off on the perimeter with a head of steam). Both Scottie and OG have glaring weaknesses that restrict them from being full-time creators right now though. Scottie is a brilliant player that can already read the floor like some of the best minds of the league, but he is a bad jump shooter and at times has a shaky handle while OG is a very good shooter with a terrible handle and just an okay feel for the game while being a bit awkward with the ball.

In theory, Scottie (or Siakam) running the offence from the high-post with FVV and OG (and sometimes GTJ too when we go small) in the corners/on the perimeter should be our best offence. It takes the ball out of one of our best knock-down shooters' hands who has pretty average vision and good passing abilities while putting it into one of our worst shooters' hands who has very good vision and very good passing abilities. That just hasn't been the case this season though as Scottie's inability to run the PnR (18th percentile) or consistently and effectively get into the paint (6.6 drives per game with a 50 TS%, 6.9 AST% and 5.6 TOV%) while being a poor shooter (0.79 PPP on jumpers as a whole and 0.63 PPP on pull-up jumpers) more often than not ends up bogging down the offence. It just hasn't been a winning strategy at this point and the organization's mind to win and go for the playoffs was clearly made up when they acquired Poeltl (and to a much lesser extent Barton).

[HumbleRen]

Just gotta find that right balance with reps and “winning basketball”.

Scottie isn’t Siakam/FVV or OG. He’s not someone you bring along slowly so he can conform to what the team wants to do. That’s how you stifle creativity and the invaluable experience of tasting failure as a really young player and learning from it.


You can see it with OG/Siakam and FVV in terms of not having those reps from a super young age. OG is just now becoming slightly more comfortable in creating for him self and others 6 years into his career.

Siakam lacks any sort of confidence in clutch moments because he suddenly got thrusted into that position without ever experiencing those reps/situations when he was younger.

FVV is 7 years into the league and he’s only now become a below average finisher at the rim. (A step up from being a bottom 10 finisher for almost 4 years in a row)

You have to let young players explore their game and continue to encourage them to do so. Will they be inefficient ? Absolutely but those are the lumps you take when developing skills.

Siakam’s second biggest leap of his career came from that Tampa year despite it being the most inefficient year of his career. Why ? Because he was constantly facing double teams for that entire season. That’s 2000 + minutes of reps of honing and adapting to it. That’s how he went from being an average passer to a great passer at his position.

We’re talking about a 21 year old who’s already averaging 5 assists per game. Siakam didn’t do that until he was 27/28 guys. This fanbase is so used to developing players drafted in the late first round that we somehow put Scottie into that box as well.

[canada_dry]

Ahh, there's the classic "lol stats, FVV sucks and Scottie and Poeltl are the only reason why he's playing better and less like Westbrook" posts from Tha Cynic. I was wondering how much longer it would take.

All I did above was give you an example of how you can make assumptions of your own stats in a different way. I wasn't actually making any reads into your stats because you didn't actually pull anything that says anything useful.

You typically have a plan in place with a notion you want to prove before you go and pull your stats. I do believe you think you're being unbiased but you are inherently biased. If you want to do an analysis, go into it with no bias and simply look at every angle from all sides rather than trying to make it positive one way and negative another. A guy who controls the ball as much as Van Vleet does for example will typically put up stats in his sleep because he's initiating everything and he is a good player in his prime. But that doesn't mean the best thing for this team is him running the team as much as he does.

Anyway, at this stage we're also at two different levels right now. You're hellbent on today's efficiency stats and I'm looking more at modeling for future projections. I don't care about today because it's clear this team needs to move on from this core and we have seen enough of this team to know this by now. Some of us have also tried to explain to you numerous times why we don't care about current day stats, but it's like you don't care or are just completely missing the point like you just did above. What is actually important is that in an important game like yesterday's, FVV took an obvious step back to let Barnes run the offense. That's by design. Anyone can watch this game and see when the Raptors are a good TEAM and how they have to play to be a good TEAM and a team that gets better for next season.

I expect turnovers and some dumb plays from Barnes when he has the ball. That's the nature of a young player who's learning. But, I also expect a bigger ceiling being realized whereas Van Vleet is capped and what he can do for this team is capped. I didn't say he's a bad player..I never thought he was. I do think he has some bad personality traits that interfere with the way he plays and I do think he has a conflicting style and is given too much power in this organization. I think he would thrive on a different team who will hold him more accountable. For example a good coach would have held him accountable for not playing the style of game he has been playing since Poeltl joined the team. That is a choice he made. A good coach would have tried to bring this game out of him more rather than let him do Westbrook impersonations like he did for the majority of the season. But again, he has too much power here.

You can't just give Scottie the ball in every matchup and expect anywhere close to the same process, looks or results though. Did you ever stop to think why we were playing through Scottie arguably more so than ever with a mostly full lineup the other night? He had Herro and Oladipo defending him nearly the entire game aside from a few possessions where Lowry or Martin/Strus were keeping close-ish to him when Miami went zone. Those are GREAT matchups for Scottie because he has the clear height/strength advantage while neither Herro, Oladipo or Strus in particular are good or smart defenders. You look at a game like Sunday against Washington (Kispert, Delon and Porzingis for the most part from what I saw) or Milwaukee (Giannis and Middleton in limited minutes for Scottie) or Minnesota (Conley, Prince and Anderson) before the injury and it's easy to see why we chose to have someone else initiating more of the offence in those instances. That has typically been the case for most of this season as teams have adjusted to Scottie by putting more long and skilled defenders on him or even just bigger bodies in general (last season Scottie was defended by guards 45% of the time whereas that number is down to 39% this season) after he had an excellent rookie campaign.

Yes, it isn't just about the here and now – especially when it comes to Scottie. Results aren't everything and you have to take the bad with the good as he tries things out or expands his game. But we are also still trying to win in the meantime. There are certain nights where Scottie dominates and/or plays under control while picking apart the opposition's defence, but it is heavily related to matchups – just as it was with Siakam (who for a long time pick and chose his battles against less lengthy defenders as he was developing and getting comfortable with more responsibility) or FVV (who generally has had a much better go of things against players around his size for his career). As I said, the goal in the current day is to win while still developing. The best way to do that most nights is by giving our best offensive players (Siakam and FVV) the ball to get us into our offence while having Scottie and OG do more wing-oriented things (off-ball cuts, spot-ups, putbacks, etc.) with the occasional play ran for them (most notably Scottie on the elbow or in the high-post, OG coming off a pin-down or either getting a hand-off on the perimeter with a head of steam). Both Scottie and OG have glaring weaknesses that restrict them from being full-time creators right now though. Scottie is a brilliant player that can already read the floor like some of the best minds of the league, but he is a bad jump shooter and at times has a shaky handle while OG is a very good shooter with a terrible handle and just an okay feel for the game while being a bit awkward with the ball.

In theory, Scottie (or Siakam) running the offence from the high-post with FVV and OG (and sometimes GTJ too when we go small) in the corners/on the perimeter should be our best offence. It takes the ball out of one of our best knock-down shooters' hands who has pretty average vision and good passing abilities while putting it into one of our worst shooters' hands who has very good vision and very good passing abilities. That just hasn't been the case this season though as Scottie's inability to run the PnR (18th percentile) or consistently and effectively get into the paint (6.6 drives per game with a 50 TS%, 6.9 AST% and 5.6 TOV%) while being a poor shooter (0.79 PPP on jumpers as a whole and 0.63 PPP on pull-up jumpers) more often than not ends up bogging down the offence. It just hasn't been a winning strategy at this point and the organization's mind to win and go for the playoffs was clearly made up when they acquired Poeltl (and to a much lesser extent Barton).

Thats 100% what is being missed. Matchups. Scottie HIMSELF has been quoted when questioned about his selective aggressiveness that its all MATCHUP based and thats how he plays. He's smart. If he has a good matchup he goes to work. If not he looks for who does have a good matchup. These guys want it to be the scottie show 24/7 but that's just not how he himself operates.

Its interesting because i very recently either read this quote in an article i read or a raptor reporter mentioned this in a podcast. (I think it was savannah on the will lou show a couple days back).

Also 100% agree with finding a balance between developing and competing. Because that cost us a lot earlier in the year but it seems to be coming around a bit.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[pingpongrac]

Just gotta find that right balance with reps and “winning basketball”.

Scottie isn’t Siakam/FVV or OG. He’s not someone you bring along slowly so he can conform to what the team wants to do. That’s how you stifle creativity and the invaluable experience of tasting failure as a really young player and learning from it.


You can see it with OG/Siakam and FVV in terms of not having those reps from a super young age. OG is just now becoming slightly more comfortable in creating for him self and others 6 years into his career.

Siakam lacks any sort of confidence in clutch moments because he suddenly got thrusted into that position without ever experiencing those reps/situations when he was younger.

FVV is 7 years into the league and he’s only now become a below average finisher at the rim. (A step up from being a bottom 10 finisher for almost 4 years in a row)

You have to let young players explore their game and continue to encourage them to do so. Will they be inefficient ? Absolutely but those are the lumps you take when developing skills.

Siakam’s second biggest leap of his career came from that Tampa year despite it being the most inefficient year of his career. Why ? Because he was constantly facing double teams for that entire season. That’s 2000 + minutes of reps of honing and adapting to it. That’s how he went from being an average passer to a great passer at his position.

We’re talking about a 21 year old who’s already averaging 5 assists per game. Siakam didn’t do that until he was 27/28 guys. This fanbase is so used to developing players drafted in the late first round that we somehow put Scottie into that box as well.

Scottie has been given at least twice as much responsibility and opportunity as any of Siakam/FVV/OG in their first two seasons while he has played at least twice as many different roles as well. Even Siakam in his 3rd season had less opportunity for half of the season; it wasn't until Kawhi started resting more in January where Siakam took off and put up 19/7/3 on 23 USG% vs 14/7/3 on 18 USG% in 2018. Siakam's biggest leap did not come due to the Tampa season either. His playmaking improved over that season because teams adjusted to his game after he was 2nd team All-NBA in 19/20 which forced him to become more of a playmaker and work on his counters...which is kind of similar to what is happening in Scottie's sophomore year.

He hasn't been put into a box by the fanbase or organization at all. Most fans think he has a very high ceiling while everyone within the organization seems to have very high expectations for him. He has pretty consistently been the 3rd option or at least the 3rd most involved player on the offensive end for us all season while he was more of a 5th option in his rookie season. His USG% is identical to Mobley, but he gets significantly more touches despite playing with similar talent for most of the game (Mitchell/Garland are more talented than Siakam/FVV, but OG and GTJ/Poeltl are more talented than Okoro/LeVert and Allen).

When it comes to winning time, Scottie has also been given ample opportunity. His 22.4 USG% in Q4 is 2nd among high-minute players (Siakam is 1st at 24.3%) while he leads the team with 5.2 PTS and 3.9 FGA as well. Those numbers dip a bit when you're just looking at the clutch (3rd in USG% and FGA while tied for 1st in PTS), but a lot of that has to do with the fact that we play through Siakam to get inside/to the line or find open shooters (our 3PAr jumps to .390 in the clutch vs .350 the rest of the game) just like 90% of the NBA does with its best offensive players at the end of a close game.

Scottie has been uber efficient in the clutch this season because we have put him and the team in more of a position to succeed in those scenarios. He has 11 offensive rebounds and 3 of which have resulted in immediate putbacks while 3 others resulted in eventual second chance buckets or free throws for Scottie. The majority of his other scores have come in transition or cuts/spot-ups aside from the game against the Nets in December (when he scored over Simmons and Yuta) and the game against the Bucks in January (when he scored over Lopez x2 and Giannis). His 9 turnovers is the worst mark on the team with a lot of them just being sloppy or inexperienced plays (2 bobbled dribbles, 2 offensive fouls, 1 travel, 1 forced pass right after a steal and then a couple good passes that were just picked off), but you can live with most of them as he was being aggressive and trying to get to the rim. He just needs to really work on that handle when he's working inside against a collapsing defence.

[TorontoBarneys]

I just appreciate that he's taking more J's now. His offense lately has looked more confident and smooth and he doesn't look like he can't decide on what he wants to do next on O.

At the beginning of the season he got hot from 3 and it seemed to have warped his expectations. He started acting like he was an actual perimeter threat and only going inside when nothing else worked, when that was the opposite of what he should have done. Now he's finally playing in a way where his bread and butter is consistently used but he's beginning to slowly expand outward and only taking 3s when it's a good shot. It's how he should have started the season - as a natural extension of his play from last season. You saw it in his handles too. To begin the season, he tried to do too much and played like a guard and it didn't work at all, he couldn't crossover anyone or break down the defense at all. Now his handles are more fluid and purposeful and work toward creating what he wants to do on O.

It's just a bit sad that it took more than half a season for the development to begin in earnest. Our coaching staff needs replacements.

[ATLTimekeeper]

How do two man combination stats work to show chemistry of a 5 man rotation? Did the NBA suddenly go to 2 man units in overtime or something? Did you even attempt to at least look at whether the two players in the stats above even connected on those possessions? Since you want to show chemistry with stats, did you do any other analysis other than a basic stat pulls like this? Did you take any factors into account at all? My analytics teams would cringe at this type of statistical presentation.

Did you read Reeko's initial post or just come in swinging blindly? He asked about chemistry within pairings, and I said it was more complex than just passing. Overall, the results tend to be higher.

I guess you don't take eye test for any value at all either? We may as well just fire all scouts. Are you factoring in how having someone else consistently run the offense changes how a team in general plays in that offense. Are you factoring in that a new PG means you have to tweak everything in the offense and probably don't want that player to run it similar to how a guy who's more of a shooter would run it? Are you factoring in how players will now react as they grow with that passing style and expectation of high risk passes, and the ball in their favourite spots consistently, the expectation of the ball moving more for better 3 pointers?

The eye test tells me that Scottie creates more in transition and I said as much. It also tells me that he's not guarded as closely as Fred or Siakam and that his playmaking is often coming as a result of initial actions created by others. I can factor in that players might cut more for Scottie, but the Raptors as a team already score off cuts more than most teams. The perceived improvement off a play that isn't really ever a significant part of an NBA offense won't vault the team to another echelon of offense. More likely the opposition would just sit on Scottie and make him a scorer. In the NBA, that's like one timeout and an adjustment.

Also, Reeko made a very good point. You're making excuses for stats one way but refusing to do it the other way. This shows an ingenuous attempt to actually analyse and a focus more on trying to prove a preconceived notion.

He didn't even post the stats and then someone else found out the difference isn't even that significant between the two, and further explained what that stat means. Again, how are we defining chemistry? Just with passing?

[ATLTimekeeper]

My guy, I’ve given up on debating with certain individuals regarding Barnes. Your last sentence nailed it, and it’s something I said many pages ago in this thread—some folks are more motivated to defend their previously held notions on this player than they are willing to acknowledge the evidence right in front of them that maybe disproves those previously held notions.

But let’s continue comparing the results of a second year player, whose role in the offence is limited (but expanding), to a veteran who the offence is built around. Let’s continue believing Barnes isn’t good enough to run the offence through because he’s not a lights out midrange shooter or paint finisher yet. It’s like, why are we making up these rather arbitrary prerequisites to give our most talented and smartest player the damn ball? What purpose does it serve except to win an argument on the internet?

So what was different between this perspective and what I said. I'm on the side of being patient with Scottie and letting him earn his space within the offense. When we talk about what he needs to develop, that's when those flaws get pointed out.

And the logic behind this notion is poor. Of course Barnes isn’t as good as f*cking Jokic yet, or FVV or Siakam or whoever—he’s a second year player! He’s not supposed to be better than those guys. The point is that Barnes has a higher ceiling than anyone else on this team (and it’s not close) and he has reached a point in his development where involving him in the offence in a more significant way is not a detriment but beneficial to the team right now and also prepares him to arrive at his immense ceiling quicker, maximizing the window he has to play with Siakam and Fred (two really good players) while they’re still in their respective primes. But let’s keep pulling stats, that do more to reflect where Barnes currently is on his developmental path than where he’s going to be in a few years as evidence that he won’t ever get there.

The argument from another poster was that Scottie should have a Jokic-like role next season. I pointed out why Jokic has the Jokic-like role and why Scottie hasn't shown he's ready. You can argue that he needs the opportunity to grow into that role, but I just disagree with the expediency. Jokic earned his Jokic-like role by being super efficient in his first few years to where it was undeniable that the offense should flow through him. Same with Sabonis. These guys weren't just handed the keys.

And ATLTimekeeper, I simply feel your opinion on this particular situation is biased and not rooted in what’s actually happening on the court. And frankly, it’s pretty disappointing because you’re generally a smart person and a good poster. But on this particular issue, it just seems like you’re drawing at straws at this point. You’re better than this.

Cool. What's actually happening on the court? I don't post in the game threads because those are emotional, people get caught up in what they think they're seeing and complain and those complaints seem real and the overall negative culture creates a false confirmation. I'll just take a step back and weigh in and if the numbers say something different I'll make a point of it. I'm going out of my way to remove as much bias as possible. That's what the numbers are for. Posters that just spend every night complaining about the offense and Fred and denying statistical evidence, without even trying to discuss what they might mean are out to lunch and it's always been the case on here.

[HumbleRen]

Just gotta find that right balance with reps and “winning basketball”.

Scottie isn’t Siakam/FVV or OG. He’s not someone you bring along slowly so he can conform to what the team wants to do. That’s how you stifle creativity and the invaluable experience of tasting failure as a really young player and learning from it.


You can see it with OG/Siakam and FVV in terms of not having those reps from a super young age. OG is just now becoming slightly more comfortable in creating for him self and others 6 years into his career.

Siakam lacks any sort of confidence in clutch moments because he suddenly got thrusted into that position without ever experiencing those reps/situations when he was younger.

FVV is 7 years into the league and he’s only now become a below average finisher at the rim. (A step up from being a bottom 10 finisher for almost 4 years in a row)

You have to let young players explore their game and continue to encourage them to do so. Will they be inefficient ? Absolutely but those are the lumps you take when developing skills.

Siakam’s second biggest leap of his career came from that Tampa year despite it being the most inefficient year of his career. Why ? Because he was constantly facing double teams for that entire season. That’s 2000 + minutes of reps of honing and adapting to it. That’s how he went from being an average passer to a great passer at his position.

We’re talking about a 21 year old who’s already averaging 5 assists per game. Siakam didn’t do that until he was 27/28 guys. This fanbase is so used to developing players drafted in the late first round that we somehow put Scottie into that box as well.

Once again bringing this up.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

He certainly looks quicker than he did before. Seemed he couldn't beat anyone off the dribble earlier in the season. If he can at least be a decent catch and shoot corner 3 guy next year that'll be a big next step

[Yeezus_]

Barnes has the strength, size, fluidity and instincts to become a star one day. It's nice to see games like this as a glimpse into the future.

[hype_2004]

He certainly looks quicker than he did before. Seemed he couldn't beat anyone off the dribble earlier in the season. If he can at least be a decent catch and shoot corner 3 guy next year that'll be a big next step

Wtf is making him a catch and shoot 3 guy!? That's OG and Boucher. Barnes will be the featured guy once we get rid of Siakam it gonna happen sooner than later.

[Raps in 4]

It's time to build around Scottie.

I wish we had a better pick this year. We need to start surrounding him with other young players.

[Syd-TK3]

It's time to build around Scottie.

I wish we had a better pick this year. We need to start surrounding him with other young players.

Scottie plus any of the top 3 in this draft woulda been perfect smh

[djsunyc]

scottie has to learn how to shoot tho. right now he benefits alot from playing off of siakam and fred on the weakside and able to get mismatches on players. if he's bumped up a few slots in role, then he has to hit jumpers b/c defenses will pay more attention to him.

[TorontoBarneys]

It's time to build around Scottie.

I wish we had a better pick this year. We need to start surrounding him with other young players.

Yeah gonna be funny when we add a middling talent from our teens pick this offseason rather than another genuine star in the making alongside Barnes, because FO was too scared to tank for half a season.

This season has been a dumpster fire.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It's time to build around Scottie.

I wish we had a better pick this year. We need to start surrounding him with other young players.

Yeah gonna be funny when we add a middling talent from our teens pick this offseason rather than another genuine star in the making alongside Barnes, because FO was too scared to tank for half a season.

This season has been a dumpster fire.

I dunno, I think Khris Middleton was better for Giannis than Jabari Parker, and Klay Thompson seems to have been a better fit with Steph than Ekpe Udoh.

[Tha Cynic]

One nice development that has been happening since the trade deadline is that Barnes seems to be taking more movement shots from midrange and is looking very comfortable taking them. He actually looks more comfortable taking these than standstill shots. That's a very good sign and something that separates stars from role players.

Whatever they do in the offseason, this team will need to find a way to give Barnes more reps from the midrange area with the ball in his hands more. He's a guy who can put up close to triple double numbers in his sleep. He just needs the increased usage. Maybe they need a new coach or to trade FVV or a combination of both. But this needs to happen for this team to move to that next chapter.

[gbball]

He certainly looks quicker than he did before. Seemed he couldn't beat anyone off the dribble earlier in the season. If he can at least be a decent catch and shoot corner 3 guy next year that'll be a big next step

I think it's partially him realizing that with his strides, if he gets a step he's either getting the rim if he forces the issue or he's getting fouled. I've seen a subtle shift in his mindset here, where before if he had a step and his man would try to steer him, he'd pull back and turn into a post up...now he's playing like they can't stop him without fouling, and they can't. He's taking bigger steps and not slowing down to avoid contact as much.

It's a nice development. He also showed a lot of potential with hesitation moves earlier in the year. His dribbling, while still not great, is way ahead of where it was last season. If he can start putting it all together, he'll be pretty scary. He's flashing Giannis-like upside at times. It's just the motor and athleticism that separates the two...but Scottie is more skilled.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

He certainly looks quicker than he did before. Seemed he couldn't beat anyone off the dribble earlier in the season. If he can at least be a decent catch and shoot corner 3 guy next year that'll be a big next step

Wtf is making him a catch and shoot 3 guy!? That's OG and Boucher. Barnes will be the featured guy once we get rid of Siakam it gonna happen sooner than later.

He's not gonna have the ball every second of every play. If he can get 2-3 buckets from corner 3 once in a while it will open up his game because guys will have to play him tighter

[HiJiNX]

My guy, I’ve given up on debating with certain individuals regarding Barnes. Your last sentence nailed it, and it’s something I said many pages ago in this thread—some folks are more motivated to defend their previously held notions on this player than they are willing to acknowledge the evidence right in front of them that maybe disproves those previously held notions.

But let’s continue comparing the results of a second year player, whose role in the offence is limited (but expanding), to a veteran who the offence is built around. Let’s continue believing Barnes isn’t good enough to run the offence through because he’s not a lights out midrange shooter or paint finisher yet. It’s like, why are we making up these rather arbitrary prerequisites to give our most talented and smartest player the damn ball? What purpose does it serve except to win an argument on the internet?

So what was different between this perspective and what I said. I'm on the side of being patient with Scottie and letting him earn his space within the offense. When we talk about what he needs to develop, that's when those flaws get pointed out.

And the logic behind this notion is poor. Of course Barnes isn’t as good as f*cking Jokic yet, or FVV or Siakam or whoever—he’s a second year player! He’s not supposed to be better than those guys. The point is that Barnes has a higher ceiling than anyone else on this team (and it’s not close) and he has reached a point in his development where involving him in the offence in a more significant way is not a detriment but beneficial to the team right now and also prepares him to arrive at his immense ceiling quicker, maximizing the window he has to play with Siakam and Fred (two really good players) while they’re still in their respective primes. But let’s keep pulling stats, that do more to reflect where Barnes currently is on his developmental path than where he’s going to be in a few years as evidence that he won’t ever get there.

The argument from another poster was that Scottie should have a Jokic-like role next season. I pointed out why Jokic has the Jokic-like role and why Scottie hasn't shown he's ready. You can argue that he needs the opportunity to grow into that role, but I just disagree with the expediency. Jokic earned his Jokic-like role by being super efficient in his first few years to where it was undeniable that the offense should flow through him. Same with Sabonis. These guys weren't just handed the keys.

And ATLTimekeeper, I simply feel your opinion on this particular situation is biased and not rooted in what’s actually happening on the court. And frankly, it’s pretty disappointing because you’re generally a smart person and a good poster. But on this particular issue, it just seems like you’re drawing at straws at this point. You’re better than this.

Cool. What's actually happening on the court? I don't post in the game threads because those are emotional, people get caught up in what they think they're seeing and complain and those complaints seem real and the overall negative culture creates a false confirmation. I'll just take a step back and weigh in and if the numbers say something different I'll make a point of it. I'm going out of my way to remove as much bias as possible. That's what the numbers are for. Posters that just spend every night complaining about the offense and Fred and denying statistical evidence, without even trying to discuss what they might mean are out to lunch and it's always been the case on here.

I agree with your last paragraph. There are indeed a lot of emotional reactionary posts on this board. I’ve probably been guilty of it, too, to a smaller extent.

And I respect trying to approach things without bias. I also think that numbers are inherently biased by the person using them and how they’re being used. But even more so, I think numbers don’t tell the whole story, especially when we are looking at making projections for a young player. Today’s numbers are not necessarily an accurate reflection of tomorrow’s production and I think what we can see with Barnes is he has intangible qualities that are hard to reflect with stats. There is an impact he has on games that is palpable when he gets going. The hope is that by giving him more opportunity to explore early that he’ll hone what he already has, develop what he doesn’t have, but most importantly have the reps as a lead guy so he learns how to handle tough situations while developing a leadership mentality that will benefit him later when his talent is more realized.

Anyway, we will watch it play out and see what happens. It does seem like recently Barnes is the main guy many times when FVV and Siakam aren’t on the floor together (and sometimes even when they are). So all of our complaints will likely be moot by next season if recent weeks are indicators of what to expect next season.