Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[TorontoBarneys]

It's time to build around Scottie.

I wish we had a better pick this year. We need to start surrounding him with other young players.

Yeah gonna be funny when we add a middling talent from our teens pick this offseason rather than another genuine star in the making alongside Barnes, because FO was too scared to tank for half a season.

This season has been a dumpster fire.

I dunno, I think Khris Middleton was better for Giannis than Jabari Parker, and Klay Thompson seems to have been a better fit with Steph than Ekpe Udoh.

I love how people genuinely believe anecdotal examples are strong arguments rather than the statistical proof that, on average, higher draft picks result in better players.

Anything to win an internet argument, though, huh?

[WuTang_CMB]

good improvement on his middie

Read on Twitter

[Syd-TK3]

good improvement on his middie

Read on Twitter

By far the biggest sign of growth in his recent play

[Tha Cynic]

One nice development that has been happening since the trade deadline is that Barnes seems to be taking more movement shots from midrange and is looking very comfortable taking them. He actually looks more comfortable taking these than standstill shots. That's a very good sign and something that separates stars from role players.

Whatever they do in the offseason, this team will need to find a way to give Barnes more reps from the midrange area with the ball in his hands more. He's a guy who can put up close to triple double numbers in his sleep. He just needs the increased usage. Maybe they need a new coach or to trade FVV or a combination of both. But this needs to happen for this team to move to that next chapter.

good improvement on his middie

Read on Twitter

Thanks for this. I know for some people some things have to be obvious and laid out in front of them to see outside of stats. This is very much as in your face as you can get.

[brownbobcat]

One nice development that has been happening since the trade deadline is that Barnes seems to be taking more movement shots from midrange and is looking very comfortable taking them. He actually looks more comfortable taking these than standstill shots. That's a very good sign and something that separates stars from role players.

Whatever they do in the offseason, this team will need to find a way to give Barnes more reps from the midrange area with the ball in his hands more. He's a guy who can put up close to triple double numbers in his sleep. He just needs the increased usage. Maybe they need a new coach or to trade FVV or a combination of both. But this needs to happen for this team to move to that next chapter.

good improvement on his middie

Read on Twitter

Thanks for this. I know for some people some things have to be obvious and laid out in front of them to see outside of stats. This is very much as in your face as you can get.

It's not as if you can't see it in the stats either - a video of only makes is going to make anybody look good.

Fact is he's shooting 46.4% from 10-15ft in March on 13/28 volume. That's encouraging, much higher than any other month and after horrendously going 3/16 in Jan and 1/10 in Feb. 16-3pt range numbers are still so-so, but those long 2s are the toughest shot in the NBA.

[tdotrep2]

scotties handle is better than siakam/og's. he can get in his bag and create. the only issue is he's not really fluid going into his jumpshot and hes not the quickest, hopefully the former improves.

[Tha Cynic]

One nice development that has been happening since the trade deadline is that Barnes seems to be taking more movement shots from midrange and is looking very comfortable taking them. He actually looks more comfortable taking these than standstill shots. That's a very good sign and something that separates stars from role players.

Whatever they do in the offseason, this team will need to find a way to give Barnes more reps from the midrange area with the ball in his hands more. He's a guy who can put up close to triple double numbers in his sleep. He just needs the increased usage. Maybe they need a new coach or to trade FVV or a combination of both. But this needs to happen for this team to move to that next chapter.

good improvement on his middie

Read on Twitter

Thanks for this. I know for some people some things have to be obvious and laid out in front of them to see outside of stats. This is very much as in your face as you can get.

It's not as if you can't see it in the stats either - a video of only makes is going to make anybody look good.

Fact is he's shooting 46.4% from 10-15ft in March on 13/28 volume. That's encouraging, much higher than any other month and after horrendously going 3/16 in Jan and 1/10 in Feb. 16-3pt range numbers are still so-so, but those long 2s are the toughest shot in the NBA.

For a raw player, I'm more concerned right now about form, rhythm and consistency of his release. These are all looking good. The efficiency comes after.

[720]

My guy, I’ve given up on debating with certain individuals regarding Barnes. Your last sentence nailed it, and it’s something I said many pages ago in this thread—some folks are more motivated to defend their previously held notions on this player than they are willing to acknowledge the evidence right in front of them that maybe disproves those previously held notions.

But let’s continue comparing the results of a second year player, whose role in the offence is limited (but expanding), to a veteran who the offence is built around. Let’s continue believing Barnes isn’t good enough to run the offence through because he’s not a lights out midrange shooter or paint finisher yet. It’s like, why are we making up these rather arbitrary prerequisites to give our most talented and smartest player the damn ball? What purpose does it serve except to win an argument on the internet?

So what was different between this perspective and what I said. I'm on the side of being patient with Scottie and letting him earn his space within the offense. When we talk about what he needs to develop, that's when those flaws get pointed out.

And the logic behind this notion is poor. Of course Barnes isn’t as good as f*cking Jokic yet, or FVV or Siakam or whoever—he’s a second year player! He’s not supposed to be better than those guys. The point is that Barnes has a higher ceiling than anyone else on this team (and it’s not close) and he has reached a point in his development where involving him in the offence in a more significant way is not a detriment but beneficial to the team right now and also prepares him to arrive at his immense ceiling quicker, maximizing the window he has to play with Siakam and Fred (two really good players) while they’re still in their respective primes. But let’s keep pulling stats, that do more to reflect where Barnes currently is on his developmental path than where he’s going to be in a few years as evidence that he won’t ever get there.

The argument from another poster was that Scottie should have a Jokic-like role next season. I pointed out why Jokic has the Jokic-like role and why Scottie hasn't shown he's ready. You can argue that he needs the opportunity to grow into that role, but I just disagree with the expediency. Jokic earned his Jokic-like role by being super efficient in his first few years to where it was undeniable that the offense should flow through him. Same with Sabonis. These guys weren't just handed the keys.

And ATLTimekeeper, I simply feel your opinion on this particular situation is biased and not rooted in what’s actually happening on the court. And frankly, it’s pretty disappointing because you’re generally a smart person and a good poster. But on this particular issue, it just seems like you’re drawing at straws at this point. You’re better than this.

Cool. What's actually happening on the court? I don't post in the game threads because those are emotional, people get caught up in what they think they're seeing and complain and those complaints seem real and the overall negative culture creates a false confirmation. I'll just take a step back and weigh in and if the numbers say something different I'll make a point of it. I'm going out of my way to remove as much bias as possible. That's what the numbers are for. Posters that just spend every night complaining about the offense and Fred and denying statistical evidence, without even trying to discuss what they might mean are out to lunch and it's always been the case on here.

I agree with your last paragraph. There are indeed a lot of emotional reactionary posts on this board. I’ve probably been guilty of it, too, to a smaller extent.

And I respect trying to approach things without bias. I also think that numbers are inherently biased by the person using them and how they’re being used. But even more so, I think numbers don’t tell the whole story, especially when we are looking at making projections for a young player. Today’s numbers are not necessarily an accurate reflection of tomorrow’s production and I think what we can see with Barnes is he has intangible qualities that are hard to reflect with stats. There is an impact he has on games that is palpable when he gets going. The hope is that by giving him more opportunity to explore early that he’ll hone what he already has, develop what he doesn’t have, but most importantly have the reps as a lead guy so he learns how to handle tough situations while developing a leadership mentality that will benefit him later when his talent is more realized.

Anyway, we will watch it play out and see what happens. It does seem like recently Barnes is the main guy many times when FVV and Siakam aren’t on the floor together (and sometimes even when they are). So all of our complaints will likely be moot by next season if recent weeks are indicators of what to expect next season.

What you’re talking about, the intangible qualities. Is the difference between actually watching games and just reading the game through a stat sheets. Ideally one should do both but I don’t think that’s the case here with many.

Also it’s hilarious that you had to point out that since he’s a very young player, today’s numbers don’t necessarily give you an accurate projection of tomorrow’s numbers. This should be obvious to basketball fans but for some reason a sector of this fan base have already put a cap/limit on Barnes because he doesn’t look the way THEY want him to look. While claiming to be unbiased.

[pingpongrac]

One nice development that has been happening since the trade deadline is that Barnes seems to be taking more movement shots from midrange and is looking very comfortable taking them. He actually looks more comfortable taking these than standstill shots. That's a very good sign and something that separates stars from role players.

Whatever they do in the offseason, this team will need to find a way to give Barnes more reps from the midrange area with the ball in his hands more. He's a guy who can put up close to triple double numbers in his sleep. He just needs the increased usage. Maybe they need a new coach or to trade FVV or a combination of both. But this needs to happen for this team to move to that next chapter.

good improvement on his middie

Read on Twitter

Thanks for this. I know for some people some things have to be obvious and laid out in front of them to see outside of stats. This is very much as in your face as you can get.

It's not as if you can't see it in the stats either - a video of only makes is going to make anybody look good.

Fact is he's shooting 46.4% from 10-15ft in March on 13/28 volume. That's encouraging, much higher than any other month and after horrendously going 3/16 in Jan and 1/10 in Feb. 16-3pt range numbers are still so-so, but those long 2s are the toughest shot in the NBA.

This is the thing. Scottie hit almost 50% of his mid-range attempts while making 1.2 per game through his first ~30 NBA games. The league started to adjust to him then he also hit the rookie wall last January which dragged his shooting numbers way down for a month or so. Over his next ~110 games (all of 2022 and the first 2 months of 2023), Scottie hit 0.5 mid-range jumpers per game at 31%. Teams have been defending him a lot differently than they were for his first two months in the NBA and he didn't look very comfortable taking mid-range jumpers which is why his output was cut in half while his efficiency on those shots also dropped significantly.

The comments I made about Scottie not being a great midrange scorer (which is probably one of the people Tha Cynic is indirectly talking about) were in regards to the first 5 months of this season in particular when he was shooting 28% and averaging just 0.4 makes per game in the midrange while he was also near the bottom of the league in post-up efficiency which accounts for some of those turnaround jumpers from the painted area that can be classified as a mid-range jumper depending on who you're talking to. Ever since the Clippers game (where he was fading to the side while defended by guys like Westbrook, Gordon, Mann, etc. and looked very off-balance on many occasions), he has been dynamite in the mid-range. He is taking more pull-up jumpers from 10-15 feet away after coming off a screen and he is typically backing down smaller defenders and going more straight up while he just looks more comfortable overall. Those are great opportunities for Scottie and something he can make a living off of because of his length/ability to shoot over defenders as well as his vision/ability to find the open cutter or shooter especially when he's in the high-post. He just needs to continue to improve his shooting so that he's hitting 40-45% of those shots rather than the 30% we saw over the previous 14 months.

It was never about claiming Scottie can't be a good mid-range scorer. It was simply stating the obvious that an improved shot is the quickest way for Scottie to become a more reliable and effective creator, and the lack of a scoring threat coupled with a somewhat shaky handle at times is what contributed to Siakam and FVV running the offence for most of November to the ASB. And look at that – during this stretch where Scottie is taking and making more mid-range shots (12/22 from 10-20 feet), he's putting up 20/7/6 (with just 1.5 turnovers) per36 over his last 8 games while he has been way more involved on the offensive end. Even more recently, he averaged 26/8/10 with just 2 combined turnovers in pivotal games against the Heat and Sixers where he was by far the best player on the court for either team.

The version of Scottie we've seen over the past few weeks is a guy you can run your offence through most nights. He has been quick and decisive when he gets the ball off the catch, he has been taking and making jumpers to keep the defence honest, he's making both smart and high-risk/high-reward passes, he's getting into the paint a bit more (an extra drive per game is encouraging but still needs to be a bit higher) and he's playing with a level of confidence that you need from a go-to guy. His success in the short-term is still obviously going to be greatly matchup-dependent, but I don't think anyone (on the team/in the organization or as a fan) would have any issues with running the offence through him if he's playing anything close to the level he's been at lately. The reality is Scottie hasn't been playing at this level and we've still been trying to win in the meantime though which (again) is the reason why he wasn't as featured at times while Siakam/FVV were the focal points of the offence.

I wish I could find my various posts from the offseason where I said that I thought Scottie could become an offensive hub for us in his 3rd season or even late this season while eventually becoming a top ~10 player. I've always believed in him long-term (aside from a few admittedly reactionary moments when he looked like the worst player on the floor at times in November/December and his lack of effort or engagement at times was concerning), but apparently I'm a hater if I'm ever critical of a guy that I think has superstar potential but wasn't producing as much as I had hoped in his 2nd season while his growth had somewhat stagnated for the majority of his sophomore season in which we also underperformed in part because of Scottie's lack of improvement.

[HumbleRen]

scotties handle is better than siakam/og's. he can get in his bag and create. the only issue is he's not really fluid going into his jumpshot and hes not the quickest, hopefully the former improves.

It’s not better than Siakam’s. He’s made big strides in his handles since last year though.

[Vampirate]

scotties handle is better than siakam/og's. he can get in his bag and create. the only issue is he's not really fluid going into his jumpshot and hes not the quickest, hopefully the former improves.

It’s not better than Siakam’s. He’s made big strides in his handles since last year though.

I mean, Siakam has 7 seasons under his belt, really Siakam should have the better handle.

I think Barnes will eventually surpass Siakam's peak, but i'm not sure when.

[HumbleRen]

scotties handle is better than siakam/og's. he can get in his bag and create. the only issue is he's not really fluid going into his jumpshot and hes not the quickest, hopefully the former improves.

It’s not better than Siakam’s. He’s made big strides in his handles since last year though.

I mean, Siakam has 7 seasons under his belt, really Siakam should have the better handle.

I think Barnes will eventually surpass Siakam's peak, but i'm not sure when.

Probably 2 more years or so. He doesn’t need incredibly tight handles though, he’s strong enough to push people off their defensive stances and get to his spots

He just needs more ball security in his handles like a Jimmy Butler or Kawhi. It’s still fairly sloppy but he has time to tighten them up.

Siakam has better handles than both of them but he’s weak as **** so he still settles for a contested middy or spin move.

[tdotrep2]

It’s not better than Siakam’s. He’s made big strides in his handles since last year though.

I mean, Siakam has 7 seasons under his belt, really Siakam should have the better handle.

I think Barnes will eventually surpass Siakam's peak, but i'm not sure when.

Probably 2 more years or so. He doesn’t need incredibly tight handles though, he’s strong enough to push people off their defensive stances and get to his spots

He just needs more ball security in his handles like a Jimmy Butler or Kawhi. It’s still fairly sloppy but he has time to tighten them up.

Siakam has better handles than both of them but he’s weak as **** so he still settles for a contested middy or spin move.

siakam has no moves, the only thing he does he speed up his dribble on a face up but the moves are literally him dribbling a few inches away from his legs and he gets down. As soon as scottie gets in his bag you can tell hes got more to him than siakam. Soccties handles look looser because he tries to open up the defender causing wider dribbles and more complex moves but if you see siakam even attempt what scottie does he'd loose the ball right away. In fact, look at siakam try to dribble when he faces up a guy and it isnt the short dribbles where he gets low to the ground, he literally looses the ball and its a cap on what he can do.

[HumbleRen]

I mean, Siakam has 7 seasons under his belt, really Siakam should have the better handle.

I think Barnes will eventually surpass Siakam's peak, but i'm not sure when.

Probably 2 more years or so. He doesn’t need incredibly tight handles though, he’s strong enough to push people off their defensive stances and get to his spots

He just needs more ball security in his handles like a Jimmy Butler or Kawhi. It’s still fairly sloppy but he has time to tighten them up.

Siakam has better handles than both of them but he’s weak as **** so he still settles for a contested middy or spin move.

siakam has no moves, the only thing he does he speed up his dribble on a face up but the moves are literally him dribbling a few inches away from his legs and he gets down. As soon as scottie gets in his bag you can tell hes got more to him than siakam. Soccties handles look looser because he tries to open up the defender causing wider dribbles and more complex moves but if you see siakam even attempt what scottie does he'd loose the ball right away. In fact, look at siakam try to dribble when he faces up a guy and it isnt the short dribbles where he gets low to the ground, he literally looses the ball and its a cap on what he can do.

Nah man, I can’t sip the koolaid this much lol.

Siakam has way more counters than Scottie does. Scottie isn’t doing more complex dribbles. He’s just doing workout ball dribbles, he isn’t really going anywhere with his combos.

It’s his aggressiveness to get into the chest of his defender when driving to the rim that’s open up his scoring ability.

[DelAbbot]

Is it just me or does Scottie's middy look even slower in release than OG? Hight release makes it hard to contest but he's so slow to get the shot off

[Jtoneller1]

He certainly looks quicker than he did before. Seemed he couldn't beat anyone off the dribble earlier in the season. If he can at least be a decent catch and shoot corner 3 guy next year that'll be a big next step

I think it's partially him realizing that with his strides, if he gets a step he's either getting the rim if he forces the issue or he's getting fouled. I've seen a subtle shift in his mindset here, where before if he had a step and his man would try to steer him, he'd pull back and turn into a post up...now he's playing like they can't stop him without fouling, and they can't. He's taking bigger steps and not slowing down to avoid contact as much.

It's a nice development. He also showed a lot of potential with hesitation moves earlier in the year. His dribbling, while still not great, is way ahead of where it was last season. If he can start putting it all together, he'll be pretty scary. He's flashing Giannis-like upside at times. It's just the motor and athleticism that separates the two...but Scottie is more skilled.

I have noticed this too. I have been yelling "just take him!" at my TV and Scottie is doing just that. Like you said, he's not turning his drives into post ups all the time lately. He's never going to be that blow by guy but with improvements in his handle and sheer strength he definitely could be that Kawhi-esque driver who is more of a bully ball type of guy.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using RealGM mobile app

[Reeko]

Is it just me or does Scottie's middy look even slower in release than OG? Hight release makes it hard to contest but he's so slow to get the shot off

Given his height and wingspan, it doesn't really matter. And I don't think the release is slow on the pull ups, but it is kind of slow on the fade aways. It'll get faster with more repetition.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I agree with your last paragraph. There are indeed a lot of emotional reactionary posts on this board. I’ve probably been guilty of it, too, to a smaller extent.

And I respect trying to approach things without bias. I also think that numbers are inherently biased by the person using them and how they’re being used. But even more so, I think numbers don’t tell the whole story, especially when we are looking at making projections for a young player. Today’s numbers are not necessarily an accurate reflection of tomorrow’s production and I think what we can see with Barnes is he has intangible qualities that are hard to reflect with stats. There is an impact he has on games that is palpable when he gets going.

This side debate isn't about projections for young players, though. It's about current chemistry, which we know there isn't a stat for or even a definition. When another poster chimed in and said he was ready to give Scottie a Jokic-like role as soon as next year, I used evidence to show why that would be far-fetched. But that wasn't about chemistry per se, but about changing the offense, I guess.

The hope is that by giving him more opportunity to explore early that he’ll hone what he already has, develop what he doesn’t have, but most importantly have the reps as a lead guy so he learns how to handle tough situations while developing a leadership mentality that will benefit him later when his talent is more realized.

And this is just a development argument. It has nothing to do with Scottie or Fred. Just a theory. I can point to Fred and Scottie doing really well together on offense in one number, as is. But there's massive pushback based on aesthetics and hopefulness.

[Godaddycurse]

Is it just me or does Scottie's middy look even slower in release than OG? Hight release makes it hard to contest but he's so slow to get the shot off

Given his height and wingspan, it doesn't really matter. And I don't think the release is slow on the pull ups, but it is kind of slow on the fade aways. It'll get faster with more repetition.

Rather it be slow and accurate/consistent to start. No point being fast if its all over the place

[blastttOFF]

Thought that was a Kobe reel.

All those turnarounds were turning to his left except two instances.

Once he can go either way consistently, this should be his bread and butter. He already knows how to get good positioning with and without the ball, because of good fundamentals he has.

He could be really good two way derozan type of player, which would be mvp like