Shams: Raps acquire Ingram for Brown + Olynyk + IND 1st

[ArthurVandelay]

MArc Stein on raps show next

Him and Jake Fischer deserve their flowers. They were first on BI-Raptors.

[brownbobcat]

So are the Magic mediocre by that definition. The answer is yes, this season, but they have the ability to get better and develop due to their youth.

We have a ton of youth, so if we make the 5-7th seed next year, wouldn't we have an opportunity to get better?

Not all youths are created equal.

[Ell Curry]

We traded the Indy pick next year. We did not trade our lottery pick this year.

we're falling in the lottery rankings. If ingram plays, we could easily have 7th or 8th worst odds.
I think Chicago and Brooklyn are about to take extreme tanking measures. Maybe even portland too.

i posted this a few pages ago, we will likely be locked in the 2nd tier

there are 31 games left, raptors will be in tier 2 of tankers, end up in the 5-7 range of the draft. the third tier teams are going for it.

was 9 wins
pels 12 wins
jazz 12 wins
hornets 12 wins
------------------
raptors 16 wins
bkn 17 wins
bulls 22 wins
--------------
sixers 20 wins (embidd is back)
blazers 22 wins (won 9 of 10, have shown no incliation of tearing it down)
hawks 23 wins (dont have pick)
spurs 22 wins (fox trade)

Good news is very little difference between 5th and 6th in lotto odds (5% better chance of top 4, and 10% higher chance of 6th - that 10% basically goes to 8th).

[Duffman100]

So are the Magic mediocre by that definition. The answer is yes, this season, but they have the ability to get better and develop due to their youth.

We have a ton of youth, so if we make the 5-7th seed next year, wouldn't we have an opportunity to get better?

Not all youths are created equal.

Neither are team structures and available salaries. The entire point is there a 'grey area' when evaluating 'mediocre' and its' a blanket term that isn't just easy to use.

[dTox]

What is your definition of “mediocrity”?
How do we get out of “mediocrity”?

Drafting in the 7-15 range over and over, or even worse, giving up a draft pick in the 7-11 range after failing to make the playoffs.

Wasn’t that draft pick given up coming off a season where they made the playoffs? And that ended up being Poeltl who’s a good player. This one has given us a roster that should easily make the playoffs next season.

The only way to guarantee a top pick is by trading away everyone and only having a roster of g league players. I’m sorry, but that’s what we should be doing to become a good team? Do you really think Washington or Charlotte are going to be building a winner?

I’ll take the plan of the guy who has proven he can build sustained winning, and pivot when required. The dude just fixed our entire bench issue with youth with upside, and given us legit scorers for the starting lineup, while keeping a top 7 pick this season, unless the lottery balls which you want to rely on fall the wrong way.

Patience means making smart moves when the time presents itself. It DOES NOT, mean trading everyone away and losing year after year.

Who said trading everyone away? You are using strawman to make a point, if we just kept the roster intact, or maybe even traded some vets like Boucher, this team would have had a realistic chance to be in the top 5. The same goes for the season we traded for Jakob, they could have kept the roster intact instead of making that trade, maybe sit Fred down for the last month, and voila, a top lottery pick instead of the 13th with Gradey. Masai always avoids a realistic lottery pick last second before trade deadline and it has costed us. The only time he didn't make these last second kneejerk moves, we ended up with Scottie.
How many rebuilding teams trade away first round picks 3 straight years?

[Jordo960]

Davion Mitchell to Miami for PJ Tucker and a 2RP

[rarefind]

Does this trade make us elite? No. Of course not.

However, continually hoping that the draft is going to land us an elite talent through tanking is not a great strategy, either. This deal also HELPS us in terms of getting more ping pong balls to help us in the lottery THIS summer. Saying that the right play was to be terrible again next year isn't sound logic.

We added another piece in Ingram who can help us win (if healthy). In a couple years down the road, this team has multiple assets that can be moved for a superstar if such an opportunity arises. We love playing the championship or bust narrative but that is unrealistic for any well run organization. Masai adding more assets that can either help the team or be traded later is not a bad thing.

This team was never going from the lottery to winning the Conference overnight. Masai has not committed to this roster being left as-is for the next several seasons. Think back to where we were in 2013/14... You have to start somewhere. Let's this group grow and let's see how things evolve.

[Risk101]

It’s weird how some people bring up Demar and those 60 game win seasons not remembering how embarrassing those playoff series were.

We had home court advantage and were the under dogs in every series lol.

[TorontoBarneys]

If we are not tanking beyond this year (if even that) then the homerun deal to make in the summer would be throwing everything we have at acquiring Booker. To do that, we need to make the 2025 pick as sexy as possible.

Booker/Barnes/Ingram is a legit trio.

[Tha Cynic]

Drafting in the 7-15 range over and over, or even worse, giving up a draft pick in the 7-11 range after failing to make the playoffs.

Wasn’t that draft pick given up coming off a season where they made the playoffs? And that ended up being Poeltl who’s a good player. This one has given us a roster that should easily make the playoffs next season.

The only way to guarantee a top pick is by trading away everyone and only having a roster of g league players. I’m sorry, but that’s what we should be doing to become a good team? Do you really think Washington or Charlotte are going to be building a winner?

I’ll take the plan of the guy who has proven he can build sustained winning, and pivot when required. The dude just fixed our entire bench issue with youth with upside, and given us legit scorers for the starting lineup, while keeping a top 7 pick this season, unless the lottery balls which you want to rely on fall the wrong way.

Patience means making smart moves when the time presents itself. It DOES NOT, mean trading everyone away and losing year after year.

Who said trading everyone away? You are using strawman to make a point, if we just kept the roster intact, or maybe even traded some vets like Boucher, this team would have had a realistic chance to be in the top 5. The same goes for the season we traded for Jakob, they could have kept the roster intact instead of making that trade, maybe sit Fred down for the last month, and voila, a top lottery pick instead of the 13th with Gradey. Masai always avoids a realistic lottery pick last second before trade deadline and it has costed us. How many rebuilding teams trade away first round picks 3 straight years?

Okay so they just need to sit Ingram and you’re happy?

[kalel123]

I've had a night sleep to think about the trade and I'm still hemming and hawing about it. I see it from Masai's perspective as a buy low acquisition for a 6'8 27 year old wing, who is a former 2nd overall pick and All Star. You add him and a lottery pick with this team and we're looking solid for the next couple of years. The other side is will this devalue our pick, can we sign him to a reasonable deal and will he be healthy enough to make an impact.

There's reasons why some here are excited about the potential of this deal and also why some are pessimistic about it too. All we can do is wait an see. I hope that they hold out BI until he's fully healthy. This February is crucial for us to stay in top 5 lottery odds. I really want us to add a star talent from this draft.

When someone's available on the cheap and no one's chomping at the bits and you find yourself competing against the likes of Hakws, have to pause and think: is it worth it? While I'm not all doom and gloom, it's just too many unnecessary question marks and uncertainty. The only certainty IMO is that Ingram will continue to play less than 65 games in a given season.

[WuTang_CMB]

MArc Stein on raps show next

Him and Jake Fischer deserve their flowers. They were first on BI-Raptors.

yet people don't buy jake still lolol

[ConSarnit]

Pretty much 2 assumptions have to be made here in terms of Masai's likely thought process with this trade:

1) Masai believes the Indy pick will end up post-lottery (he's not betting against Indy in 2026).
2) Masai believes Ingram's extension and the rookie scale of our 2025 FRP will fit into the tax space we have for next season (currently at around $50M with 9 roster spots filled according to Spotrac).

If point #2 isn't the case, someone else is going to have to go to make Ingram's salary and the 2025 FRP rookie scale salary fit under the tax, and it's probably going to have to be someone in the RJ/Poeltl salary range for multiple reasons.

Edit: someone will likely have to go regardless, because they can't just sign Ingram and the 2025 FRP and run an 11 man roster.

Also for anyone thinking MLSE will authorize spending into the tax next season, that's a pipe dream, not happening.

Boucher is expiring and I don’t think he comes back at the same price

We are going to be hard pressed to retain anyone or bring in anyone as a FA.

Let's assume Ingram takes the same 25% of the cap deal he did last time. That means he starts at $38.8m

Ingram: $38.8m
5th pick: $7.5m
39th pick: $1.5m

This probably leaves us with maybe $3m below the tax. That means Boucher and Mitchell are gone. We're going to have to figure out how to get big man depth because currently all we have is Mogbo.

[dTox]

Wasn’t that draft pick given up coming off a season where they made the playoffs? And that ended up being Poeltl who’s a good player. This one has given us a roster that should easily make the playoffs next season.

The only way to guarantee a top pick is by trading away everyone and only having a roster of g league players. I’m sorry, but that’s what we should be doing to become a good team? Do you really think Washington or Charlotte are going to be building a winner?

I’ll take the plan of the guy who has proven he can build sustained winning, and pivot when required. The dude just fixed our entire bench issue with youth with upside, and given us legit scorers for the starting lineup, while keeping a top 7 pick this season, unless the lottery balls which you want to rely on fall the wrong way.

Patience means making smart moves when the time presents itself. It DOES NOT, mean trading everyone away and losing year after year.

Who said trading everyone away? You are using strawman to make a point, if we just kept the roster intact, or maybe even traded some vets like Boucher, this team would have had a realistic chance to be in the top 5. The same goes for the season we traded for Jakob, they could have kept the roster intact instead of making that trade, maybe sit Fred down for the last month, and voila, a top lottery pick instead of the 13th with Gradey. Masai always avoids a realistic lottery pick last second before trade deadline and it has costed us. How many rebuilding teams trade away first round picks 3 straight years?

Okay so they just need to sit Ingram and you’re happy?

I am not happy about the possibility of paying a 27 year old player who has yet to play more than 62 games in 5-6 years 40+ Mill per season, this trade has more than 1 reason to cause concern. Not just about the lottery picks. There's also the basketball reasons:

Read on Twitter

We used to complain about Scottie not having room to operate because Siakam lives in his comfort spots, well, we just doubled down on that with adding Ingram who literally has an island built in the midrange. Also adding to the fact that RJ isn't really a 3 pt shooter, this is a messy, crowded space inside the arch. Oh and I forgot about Jakob who also can't shoot.

[___Rand___]

Indiana 26' same protection

Phew. thanks!

you could have just read the thread title, alas
also included is raptors 2031 2nd.

No I jumped in here after reading the news elsewhere. I don't got time for titles!

[Tha Cynic]

Who said trading everyone away? You are using strawman to make a point, if we just kept the roster intact, or maybe even traded some vets like Boucher, this team would have had a realistic chance to be in the top 5. The same goes for the season we traded for Jakob, they could have kept the roster intact instead of making that trade, maybe sit Fred down for the last month, and voila, a top lottery pick instead of the 13th with Gradey. Masai always avoids a realistic lottery pick last second before trade deadline and it has costed us. How many rebuilding teams trade away first round picks 3 straight years?

Okay so they just need to sit Ingram and you’re happy?

I am not happy about the possibility of paying a 27 year old player who has yet to play more than 62 games in 5-6 years 40+ Mill per season, this trade has more than 1 reason to cause concern. Not just about the lottery picks. There's also the basketball reasons:

Read on Twitter

We used to complain about Scottie not having room to operate because Siakam lives in his comfort spots, well, we just doubled down on that with adding Ingram who literally has an island built in the midrange. Also adding to the fact that RJ also cannot shoot 3s, this is a messy, crowded space inside the arch.

Except Ingram can shoot 3s and has actually shot it well when he has shot 6 3s a game.

[dTox]

Okay so they just need to sit Ingram and you’re happy?

I am not happy about the possibility of paying a 27 year old player who has yet to play more than 62 games in 5-6 years 40+ Mill per season, this trade has more than 1 reason to cause concern. Not just about the lottery picks. There's also the basketball reasons:

Read on Twitter

We used to complain about Scottie not having room to operate because Siakam lives in his comfort spots, well, we just doubled down on that with adding Ingram who literally has an island built in the midrange. Also adding to the fact that RJ also cannot shoot 3s, this is a messy, crowded space inside the arch.

Except Ingram can shoot 3s and has actually shot it well when he has shot 6 3s a game.

Brother, he can shoot 3's, but doesn't, the data is there for you to review, he lives and breathes midrange. We have only 1 player who is an effective 3 pt shooter and does it in high volume, and that's IQ. In the modern NBA, it's a recipe for disaster. If you don't believe, me, look at how Ingram + Zion worked out for the Pels. Both went on runs, when the other sat or was injured, when both played, their numbers shrank.

[ConSarnit]

If we are not tanking beyond this year (if even that) then the homerun deal to make in the summer would be throwing everything we have at acquiring Booker. To do that, we need to make the 2025 pick as sexy as possible.

Booker/Barnes/Ingram is a legit trio.

We are not getting Booker. Multiple other teams are setup better to get him, including Houston who owns PHX draft for pretty much that specific reason. If we get a draft pick high enough to trade for Booker that likely means we should be keeping that draft pick because that player will have Booker+ upside (Flagg or maybe Harper).

[Morris_Shatford]

This deal is like getting an incredible deal on a high end carpet cleaner at a garage sale and bringing it home to your house that only has hardwood floors.

The value I am not mad at but the fit is odd.

[Ell Curry]

Pretty much 2 assumptions have to be made here in terms of Masai's likely thought process with this trade:

1) Masai believes the Indy pick will end up post-lottery (he's not betting against Indy in 2026).
2) Masai believes Ingram's extension and the rookie scale of our 2025 FRP will fit into the tax space we have for next season (currently at around $50M with 9 roster spots filled according to Spotrac).

If point #2 isn't the case, someone else is going to have to go to make Ingram's salary and the 2025 FRP rookie scale salary fit under the tax, and it's probably going to have to be someone in the RJ/Poeltl salary range for multiple reasons.

Edit: someone will likely have to go regardless, because they can't just sign Ingram and the 2025 FRP and run an 11 man roster.

Also for anyone thinking MLSE will authorize spending into the tax next season, that's a pipe dream, not happening.

Boucher is expiring and I don’t think he comes back at the same price

We are going to be hard pressed to retain anyone or bring in anyone as a FA.

Let's assume Ingram takes the same 25% of the cap deal he did last time. That means he starts at $38.8m

Ingram: $38.8m
5th pick: $7.5m
39th pick: $1.5m

This probably leaves us with maybe $3m below the tax. That means Boucher and Mitchell are gone. We're going to have to figure out how to get big man depth because currently all we have is Mogbo.

I feel like it should be less. He has more years of getting injured, and when he signed that last deal, he was balling:

27.8 points, 6.3 rebounds, and 4.2 assists per game in the first 12 games of the season when he signed that extension. Made the all-star team a couple months later.