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OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA his

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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#121 » by sanity » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:42 pm

I kind of wish the Nash signing went through because Colangelo would have already been fired by now and Nash would be gone in a year's time anyway
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#122 » by MikeM » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:43 pm

Lowry
___
___
Drummond
Valanciunas

Trade DD, Ed, Bargnani, Jose, Fields for whatever. Tank next year. Add decent wing prospects from trade plus the draft pick. Damn, we had a chance.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#123 » by Tha Cynic » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:53 pm

Double Helix wrote:
UssjTrunks wrote:
Why would that be irritating? That would be awesome. The problem is we haven't had too many of those moments.


2006 draft - Could have had Adam Morrison first overall. There was talk he was worth it back then. Drafted Bargnani.

2009 draft - Could have walked out of that draft with Jonny Flynn (No longer in the NBA) or Hasheem Thabeet since they were ranked high. Instead, walked out with DD.

2010 draft - Could have had Wesley Johnson, Aldrich, or Henry since they were all ranked higher. Drafted Ed Davis.

2012 draft - Could have drafted Jan Veseley or Biyombo (Who's D may not be special enough make up for his O) - Drafted Valanciunas

Things definitely could have been worse. We tend to get medium range results from our draft picks lately. If BC was a trader he'd be viewed as a guy that gets solid return on your investments but nothing spectacular. We never fully strike out and we never have the equivalent of an Apple company that completely surges either.

Although, in hindsight, I will be surprised if this year's pick (hopefully 9 or higher) ends up becoming as efficient as Drummond or Lowry (Both hovering above 21.0 in PER right now) so perhaps this year's draft pick will be BC's highest return from a draft pick yet.


So, you didn't think it was extremely stupid to draft Terrence Ross at #8 when Andre Drummond was sitting there? Really? Forget hindsight. This was a no-brainer. You have to be a moron to not draft him. All the other players who went before the 8th pick were actually projected to go there except maybe Waiters. We had one of the other guys who had top 5 talent fall into our laps, and the GM goes out and picks up a mid first round pick, with the #8 overall pick. Who are you - Paul Jones, Eric Smith or Leo Rautins? Even if Drummond was a bust with the Raptors, he would have still had one of the highest trade values on the team. Guys like him don't come along that often and us random fans could see that. Even if he didn't learn how to play basketball, he would have at worst, been Deandre Jordan. It looks like he's going to destroy Deandre Jordan in a couple of years.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#124 » by kush- » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:53 pm

Neutral 123 wrote:9pt 5rb and 2blks at the half against NY ouch!!


in 9 mins ;-) of PT, on 4-5 shooting
sanity on Jeremy Lin:
sanity wrote: Roko Ukic's court vision and play-making abilities far exceeds this player... I'm shocked this thread is going on as long as it has. Comparing Lin to Rautins is an insult to Rautins.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#125 » by Scott Carefoot » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:09 pm

Drummond averaged fewer than 10 rebounds per 36 minutes at UConn. He projected to be a poor offensive player and a below-average rebounder. In his rookie NBA season, he's averaging 13.3 rebounds per 36 minutes. I'll gladly admit I underestimated him and he clearly has far more upside than Ross, but that jump in rebounding is really quite shocking and could not have been expected.

The On/Off Court stats for Drummond are interesting. The Pistons score 9 points more per 100 possessions when he's on the court but they also give up 2 more points. He clearly has a positive impact, but the numbers don't show him to be a great defensive player yet, in spite of his block numbers.

Regardless, if he can remain relatively healthy, he figures to be, at worst, the third-best player out of this draft. But I maintain that it wasn't obvious that he was going to be this good. His motor is much, much better than he showed at UConn. Bunch of armchair sports psychologists up in this thread.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#126 » by Neutral 123 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:11 pm

Tha Cynic wrote:
Double Helix wrote:
UssjTrunks wrote:
Why would that be irritating? That would be awesome. The problem is we haven't had too many of those moments.


2006 draft - Could have had Adam Morrison first overall. There was talk he was worth it back then. Drafted Bargnani.

2009 draft - Could have walked out of that draft with Jonny Flynn (No longer in the NBA) or Hasheem Thabeet since they were ranked high. Instead, walked out with DD.

2010 draft - Could have had Wesley Johnson, Aldrich, or Henry since they were all ranked higher. Drafted Ed Davis.

2012 draft - Could have drafted Jan Veseley or Biyombo (Who's D may not be special enough make up for his O) - Drafted Valanciunas

Things definitely could have been worse. We tend to get medium range results from our draft picks lately. If BC was a trader he'd be viewed as a guy that gets solid return on your investments but nothing spectacular. We never fully strike out and we never have the equivalent of an Apple company that completely surges either.

Although, in hindsight, I will be surprised if this year's pick (hopefully 9 or higher) ends up becoming as efficient as Drummond or Lowry (Both hovering above 21.0 in PER right now) so perhaps this year's draft pick will be BC's highest return from a draft pick yet.


So, you didn't think it was extremely stupid to draft Terrence Ross at #8 when Andre Drummond was sitting there? Really? Forget hindsight. This was a no-brainer. You have to be a moron to not draft him. All the other players who went before the 8th pick were actually projected to go there except maybe Waiters. We had one of the other guys who had top 5 talent fall into our laps, and the GM goes out and picks up a mid first round pick, with the #8 overall pick. Who are you - Paul Jones, Eric Smith or Leo Rautins? Even if Drummond was a bust with the Raptors, he would have still had one of the highest trade values on the team. Guys like him don't come along that often and us random fans could see that. Even if he didn't learn how to play basketball, he would have at worst, been Deandre Jordan. It looks like he's going to destroy Deandre Jordan in a couple of years.

What's nuts is there are people saying he couldn't develop on the Raps. I mean isn't that even more of a reason to change management? If you draft a stud, but can't develop him? WTF... What a awful, awful franchise.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#127 » by Neutral 123 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:16 pm

Scott Carefoot wrote:Drummond averaged fewer than 10 rebounds per 36 minutes at UConn. He projected to be a poor offensive player and a below-average rebounder. In his rookie NBA season, he's averaging 13.3 rebounds per 36 minutes. I'll gladly admit I underestimated him and he clearly has far more upside than Ross, but that jump in rebounding is really quite shocking and could not have been expected.

The On/Off Court stats for Drummond are interesting. The Pistons score 9 points more per 100 possessions when he's on the court but they also give up 2 more points. He clearly has a positive impact, but the numbers don't show him to be a great defensive player yet, in spite of his block numbers.

Regardless, if he can remain relatively healthy, he figures to be, at worst, the third-best player out of this draft. But I maintain that it wasn't obvious that he was going to be this good. His motor is much, much better than he showed at UConn. Bunch of armchair sports psychologists up in this thread.

The armchair psychologists are the ones who wrote him off as some sort of headcase with obviously no reason for it. This was such a no brainer, and it was obvious that he would be an impact player. The only real question was how long it would take. If the Raps had anything, it was time.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#128 » by wolfv » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:21 pm

Watch someone in the organization or media put out word that AD didn't want to play in Toronto as an excuse for passing on him
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#129 » by sanity » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:25 pm

Neutral 123 wrote:What's nuts is there are people saying he couldn't develop on the Raps. I mean isn't that even more of a reason to change management? If you draft a stud, but can't develop him? WTF... What a awful, awful franchise.


Yeah I do remember some of the well-known posters around here arguing that you cannot develop two rookie bigs on the same team. Considering our team sucks, I don't see how that argument is even justified. Even if neither of them panned out, a big with speed/size/athleticism that both Valaciunas/Drummond are... outside of their skillset are still commodities in this league. Drummond will always fetch more on the market than Ross, even moreso since we drafted Ross with the intention of him being a **** benchplayer.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#130 » by lucky777s » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:27 pm

Scott Carefoot wrote: if he can remain relatively healthy, he figures to be, at worst, the third-best player out of this draft. But I maintain that it wasn't obvious that he was going to be this good. .


I would say that he did not even have to be this good to be the obvious pick at 8.

You just need to look around the league and see the value that bigs like MarcGasol, Hibbert, DeAndreJordan, JavaleMcGee have. There is a reason that even flawed bigs get huge contracts. You don't get a shot at players like this other than on draft night except in extremely rare circumstances. You cannot pass on them unless a true star wing is on the board.

Guys like TRoss you can pick up all the time. Shooters who can play some D or have some athleticism. Ross has to be that one in a million guy who blows up to his full potential to be the best pick at 8 versus Drummond who just has to reach a portion of his potential.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#131 » by Scott Carefoot » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:31 pm

Neutral 123 wrote:This was such a no brainer, and it was obvious that he would be an impact player.


If this was actually true, then the seven GMs who passed on him after Davis went first are all morons. Are you going to tell me that all seven of those GMs are morons? You'd be a better GM than all of them?

It was not obvious that he would be an impact player. If it was obvious, he wouldn't have dropped to ninth overall. Anthony Davis was the only player in this draft who would OBVIOUSLY be an impact player. If Drummond was another player with that classification, then he would have gone in the top three. He fell to ninth because there were and are holes in his game and there were well-founded questions about his motor and his desire to improve.

A player with his rebounding numbers in the NCAA should average 8-9 rebounds per 36 in the NBA, not 13. I'd be impressed if somebody found another example where a player made that kind of leap from college to the pros, because it simply doesn't happen... before now. I'm glad that some people get to feel smug about "knowing" he would be this good, but spare us the "sure thing" rhetoric because was and is anything but that.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#132 » by YogiStewart » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:38 pm

Neutral 123 wrote:The armchair psychologists are the ones who wrote him off as some sort of headcase with obviously no reason for it. This was such a no brainer, and it was obvious that he would be an impact player. The only real question was how long it would take. If the Raps had anything, it was time.


from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#133 » by tracey_nice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:42 pm

Scott Carefoot wrote: His motor is much, much better than he showed at UConn. Bunch of armchair sports psychologists up in this thread.

huh? it's people like you that made the case about him having poor character/work-ethic blah blah blah. the case FOR Drummond was talent and the case against was mental. nooo0 idea what you are talking about.


Saer Sene. can't believe you use to get paid for basketball opinions broh.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#134 » by tracey_nice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:45 pm

YogiStewart wrote:from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".


what specifically?
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#135 » by tracey_nice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:49 pm

Scott Carefoot wrote:
Neutral 123 wrote:If this was actually true, then the seven GMs who passed on him after Davis went first are all morons. Are you going to tell me that all seven of those GMs are morons? You'd be a better GM than all of them?

not really. i remember watching ty lawson in college and feeling pretty confident he would be an impact NBA player. he passed the 'eye-test' and his SYNERGY stats (or w.e.) were 'through the roof'. shooting off the dribble, PnR stuff. anyways, he wasn't even a lottery pick. bunch of bums that aren't even in the NBA today got drafted ahead of him.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#136 » by tracey_nice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:54 pm

Scott Carefoot wrote:The On/Off Court stats for Drummond are interesting. The Pistons score 9 points more per 100 possessions when he's on the court but they also give up 2 more points. He clearly has a positive impact, but the numbers don't show him to be a great defensive player yet, in spite of his block numbers.

he's 5th in the NBA in DRTG (behind Duncan/Sanders/George/Hibbert).
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#137 » by Neutral 123 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:56 pm

Scott Carefoot wrote:
Neutral 123 wrote:This was such a no brainer, and it was obvious that he would be an impact player.


If this was actually true, then the seven GMs who passed on him after Davis went first are all morons. Are you going to tell me that all seven of those GMs are morons? You'd be a better GM than all of them?

It was not obvious that he would be an impact player. If it was obvious, he wouldn't have dropped to ninth overall. Anthony Davis was the only player in this draft who would OBVIOUSLY be an impact player. If Drummond was another player with that classification, then he would have gone in the top three. He fell to ninth because there were and are holes in his game and there were well-founded questions about his motor and his desire to improve.

A player with his rebounding numbers in the NCAA should average 8-9 rebounds per 36 in the NBA, not 13. I'd be impressed if somebody found another example where a player made that kind of leap from college to the pros, because it simply doesn't happen... before now. I'm glad that some people get to feel smug about "knowing" he would be this good, but spare us the "sure thing" rhetoric because was and is anything but that.

I think it'd be far more interesting to see how many guys at his size, with this level of athleticism, don't become impact players in the NBA. If the draft was to be done over again, he'd probably go 3rd, definitely top 5. Of course the Raps aren't the only team that made a mistake. But the further a guy slips, the more you have to wonder about the teams further down that passed on him. Hell, it's not even just that they passed on Drummond, but their reasons for doing so. Ross as a better 'fit'. Fit into what exactly? He is ready to contribute, a role player, and then not even being able to contain the disappointment not getting Barnes? The Raps aren't in any position to be drafting role players and for 'fit'. It was a no brainer pick for far more than Drummond being a guy who would be an impact player. The Raps are in need of a guy who may become a star. Even if Drummond doesn't become the next big thing, he's the type of high upside guy the Raps need to gamble on.

As for the sure thing argument. There is nothing to feel smug about. Anyone could see that he was a player. You can actually still justify passing on him with higher picks too. It was fair to question how long he'd take to develop, and fair to question how much of an offensive game he'd develop. But at a floor you'd have DeAndre Jordan, and a ceiling? Oh dear, let's not even get into that now. At least Ross will give the fans a nice dunk once in a while. So I guess all is not lost. SMH....
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#138 » by fatal9 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:00 pm

Scott Carefoot wrote:The On/Off Court stats for Drummond are interesting. The Pistons score 9 points more per 100 possessions when he's on the court but they also give up 2 more points. He clearly has a positive impact, but the numbers don't show him to be a great defensive player yet, in spite of his block numbers.

That's because he's a rookie learning the game, and like all rookies, he is prone to mistakes (there are also 4 other players on the court defending with him). Anthony Davis looks like a lost weakling on defense at times, doesn't mean he isn't an amazing defensive prospect.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#139 » by tracey_nice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:01 pm

fatal9 wrote:
Scott Carefoot wrote:The On/Off Court stats for Drummond are interesting. The Pistons score 9 points more per 100 possessions when he's on the court but they also give up 2 more points. He clearly has a positive impact, but the numbers don't show him to be a great defensive player yet, in spite of his block numbers.

That's because he's a rookie learning the game, and like all rookies, he is prone to mistakes (there are also 4 other players on the court defending with him). Anthony Davis looks like a lost weakling on defense at times, doesn't mean he isn't an amazing defensive prospect.


Drummond is top 5 in the NBA in DRTG though. what Scott Carefoot said is a lie re: his defensive impact not being evident statistically.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#140 » by Neutral 123 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:01 pm

YogiStewart wrote:
Neutral 123 wrote:The armchair psychologists are the ones who wrote him off as some sort of headcase with obviously no reason for it. This was such a no brainer, and it was obvious that he would be an impact player. The only real question was how long it would take. If the Raps had anything, it was time.


from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".

What exactly? All I've heard is that he struggled with certain drills, and wasn't quick to pick up on stuff generally during workouts. Didn't BC just brag about passing on a top 3 talent because he didn't think the guy had the right personality, all the while not even working him out? I mean how does a guy still so high on Bargnani, question the mindset of anyone else in the league? But this is far more than Drummond. We can debate on what the Raps shoulda, coulda done, but objectively, the results stink. They have been well below average. There is little reason to think things will be substantially better in the immediate future. Why does this guy (BC) still deserve support? He should have been fired long ago. He's been an objective failure.
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