The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doing is smart

[Geddy]

I mean this in the nicest way but DH really needs to get off his high horse. It is insulting to label those that are unhappy with this team as trolls in a cheap attempt to tar and feather. Those that are unhappy with this team direct their criticisms at members of the organization, not at other fans so I don't see how it is "ruining the fun of others". Also, lumping in things like jersey complaints, court complaints, buying apparel etc are just other unrelated arguments that have nothing to do with the team's direction and record.

Blind optimism shouldn't be a prerequisite of being a "true fan", but rather of being a fanboy. Many of us have sat through seasons of losing basketball and it takes its toll when you are fan. When you see the same cycles (i.e. treadmill) being played out season after season you are bound to want a clean slate in terms of the team.

The original premise of this thread was that the current group of players on this team is good enough for this era and I have seen comparisons to the old Jazz, Pacer, Knicks etc teams that made it far yet never won anything. The problem with those comparisons is that those teams were actually good. This Raptors team is being crowned on a 9 game sample size, and is looking like it will miss the playoffs.

[Ice102]

Firstly, great post(s)...always an interesting read.

However (and this is coming from someone who doesn't mind Colangelo), I have to disagree.

If we're bringing in Rudy and attempting to surround him with good talent, then we're going all in. Business or no business - this is also a sport and BC himself will tell you, he wants to win. You can't just sit back and watch the LeBrons and Durants of the league win. If you're going in with that mentality, then you might as well tank for the next few seasons. Rebuild slowly.

It doesn't appear that we're doing that. So let's try to get some upsets and win.

In other words:

It's either rebuild or try to win.

No in-between. That's the definition of a treadmill team and not necessarily the wisest of long-term business moves.

[DatBoiCapspace]

Welcome fans who apparently aren't fans of the Raptors as currently constructed. At what point are you no longer a fan of a team when you dislike most of the players on it, the GM, and the coach? There are 29 other teams with message boards, you know. Mind you, not many will win a championship over the next 5 years, but I thought you would have known that since you only think long-term? No? Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that less than 4 different cities will win a championship over the next 5 years. How's that for long-term? I would probably bet on that if the odds made it tempting enough. 26 other cities will all have to settle for various other consolation prizes and goals. Why? You read the subject line. You know the answer to that. It's the start -- START -- of the Thunder/Heat rivalry. Two once in a generation talents are entering their prime years in different conferences and if the Jordan era taught us anything it's that players who are likely to be on a shortlist of the top 25 GOAT-level talents, during their prime years, in this sport, with these rules, can't and won't be stopped.

So, all this talk about how we only deal in band aid fixes and short-term planning are, quite frankly, hilarious to me. If you really view it as championship or bust then it's time to simply wait. Grantland has had articles on this very subject. Everyone else is simply pretending during this era. Many of you view the fans (or homers) of the team that support "mediocrity" with disdain because you feel that in your infinite wisdom you're a better long-term planner. You and only you know what has to happen to beat Lebron and KD. You could have tanked beautifully and hit 3 top 2 picks in a row and likely still wouldn't have the top end talent necessary to knock off either the Thunder or Heat as they enter their primes. Lebron and Durant really are that much better over 7 games. So, quit acting like there was a magic pill solution that we missed out on. Quit acting like simply putting forth one of the more competitive teams this city has seen since Bosh, or VC before that, is such a horrible thing for this franchise in this era. Fans are paying money to watch games at the ACC. You can only sell hope and mock drafts for so long.

The Raptors are a business. Businesses need to make money. Teams make money, build their brand, and reach out to new generations by fighting for the playoffs every once and awhile. Next season is that time. Hell, we'll probably even come close this year by season's end despite digging that huge hole. This is the reality of the situation for the NBA's only non-US team. We have to have treadmill seasons. It's part of being in the NBA. We will tank again but better to time the next rebuild around an in-prime Jonas Valanciunas and an aging Lebron/Wade/KD/Westbrook because it won't matter until then regardless. You want to think and talk about the long term and building a championship winner? Start there. Start 4-5 years from now because all this other armchair rebuilding talk is just as treadmill as the stuff most of you hate with those two teams sitting atop the NBA mountain.

So if we don't like how the team is being run, we're free to go cheer for another team on another forum. How generous of you!

Perhaps people would be more amenable to this whole "win now" approach, if the team was, you know, winning. As in having a positive record. It's not championship or bust for me, it's "have a good team". Since Bryan has taken over, we have had a good team ONCE. We had one season where we were an above average team. Since that first season, it's been a long, slow slide into the basement, with Colangelo flailing about wildly, making one poor move after another.

Colangelo started with a General Manager's wet dream: tons of capspace, the #1 pick in the draft, an All-Star bigman, and a couple of other assets. In 7 years he has turned that into NO capspace, NO pick, NO All-Star and still NO playoffs. That is a massive, massive failure, one that your post cannot handwave away.

Being critical of a team you support is one thing. But If you dont like a single thing the team has done over the past decade, and the only solution to changing our fortunes you can come up with is to trade away all our assets and tank for the next 5 years, and even when we go 6-3 after a trade you still try to trash it because it doesnt make us an automatic contender, then yes there is something wrong with you still being a fan of this team. Were not going to tank and were not going to win a title anytime soon. Bitching about that fact on the internet is just ruining it for people who enjoy cheering for one of the most exciting teams to watch in the league. So if this description fits you, then please check out the other 29 teams forums. I bet Miami/OKC are used to bandwagoners at this point anyways.

[Double Helix]

There's nothing wrong with being unhappy with the team. I've been here a long time with many of you guys. We all complain.

What I'm talking about is more than the occasional complaint or bit of sarcasm. I'm talking about outright trolling. At what point is it just trolling? If all you're ever doing or posting is why you hate the team and its players... I just don't see how that isn't trolling.

What is trolling if not that? I would never do this but if I was to go on the Blue Jays forum and create regular new threads about how how the new Jays team is overrated and depending far too much on players to return to their previous career bests people would kill me over there. If I complained about how Reyes is reliant on his speed and under a huge contract past his mid-thirties people would question whether I was a loyal Blue Jays fan. If I regularly questioned whether Dickey is likely to be a true ace for the duration of his contract, or whether opposing hitters will figure out his knuckler now that there's been so much hype on it and so much video available on it, Jays fans would be livid. How bad will Melky be without PEDs? Is Bautista already declining? Was EE's big year last year just a fluke? Will this be the most spectacular collapse of a team based on hype in Toronto sports history?

You can suck the fun out of anybody that's excited about anything if you just want to post negatively. And if any posters were to go to any of the popular Jays boards doing that over and over again they'd be labelled a troll and probably banned or suspended for trying to disrupt the fan experience. I'm not concerned about people who complain. We all complain. I'm talking about people who just seem like they're ALWAYS trolling.

[Alfred]

All I'm saying is that everyone has a choice and needs to ask themselves why they still consider themselves a Toronto Raptors fan. Why do you watch? If you aren't technically supporting the team then what makes you a supporter?

I watch every game, and I am upset because the team sucks. The team has sucked for years. A true fan would want to hold accountable the person responsible for making the team suck, not explain away that person's massive failings as bad luck, or trying to put lipstick on a pig.

[sanity]

All I'm saying is that everyone has a choice and needs to ask themselves why they still consider themselves a Toronto Raptors fan. Why do you watch? If you aren't technically supporting the team then what makes you a supporter?

I watch every game, and I am upset because the team sucks. The team has sucked for years. A true fan would want to hold accountable the person responsible for making the team suck, not explain away that person's massive failings as bad luck, or trying to put lipstick on a pig.

+1.

Personally I think its terrible to even call into question another fans' passion for their team.

[DatBoiCapspace]

All I'm saying is that everyone has a choice and needs to ask themselves why they still consider themselves a Toronto Raptors fan. Why do you watch? If you aren't technically supporting the team then what makes you a supporter?

I watch every game, and I am upset because the team sucks. The team has sucked for years. A true fan would want to hold accountable the person responsible for making the team suck, not explain away that person's massive failings as bad luck, or trying to put lipstick on a pig.

The team hasnt sucked since the rudy gay trade. 6-3 against good teams. But instead of being happy about it "fans" are mad because it hurt our chances of tanking through the draft, something which we had no plans or ability of doing so anyways. So are people happier since the Raps went 6-3? Not that I can tell. Therefore, its not about winning, its about being crap in the draft until youre better than OKC/MIA and worthy of these trolls attention. Everyone can see were not going to be better then them anytime soon, and have no plans of tanking next year. So why bother still being a fan? There not going to do what you want and youre just cynical of their success instead of celebrating it. smh..

[whysoserious]

Great thread DH. I've been highly critical of Colangelo and he's yet to impress me but looking at the situation and current roster, it looks like a team that could be a playoff team for a few years. If this roster had the full season together I think we'd be further up and in the playoff picture for sure.

I'm still not a fan of our offense either and since Gay came, Casey has simplified even more to just iso's constantly. Though we get a lot more by getting steals, securing rebounds and running so there is some pros as well.

I think if we make the playoffs for a few seasons, Val develops we could be in a really great position in about 3 years. If the situation of Wiggins forcing his way home in 4 or 5 years were to actually happen and Val is up there and established, watch out, this team could do major damage.

I'm just happy to see our team winning more, closing out games and having a dynamic wing like Gay finally. Now if they can tweak the roster a bit in the off-season and replace Casey I'd be content for a while.

[Ice102]

I think the annoyance stems from some fans' pure hatred for certain people on this team - BC, Bargnani, previously DeRozan.

I think we all recognize who the true fans are. But some posters here are so bias and look for any excuse to put down the team. It adds an air of negativity to this board, unfortunately.

So I see where this is coming from.

[DatBoiCapspace]

All I'm saying is that everyone has a choice and needs to ask themselves why they still consider themselves a Toronto Raptors fan. Why do you watch? If you aren't technically supporting the team then what makes you a supporter?

I watch every game, and I am upset because the team sucks. The team has sucked for years. A true fan would want to hold accountable the person responsible for making the team suck, not explain away that person's massive failings as bad luck, or trying to put lipstick on a pig.

+1.

Personally I think its terrible to even call into question another fans' passion for their team.

I dont. Read a "fan" like SDM's comments in the thread. Just pure trolling and shows their not a real fan, they only wish to support a championship team like Miami and anything less isnt worhty of their non-troll attention. Its not about being critical of your team or wanting accountability for failure. This is not like the Leafs where mediocrity is celebrated, this is a team that made moves to improve and has so far drastically improved. Just because these moves hurt our ability to get Wiggins doesnt mean we shouldnt celebrate their success since the gay trade and instead root for their failure. What kind of fan does that other then a troll?

[tecumseh18]

Bitching about that fact on the internet is just ruining it for people who enjoy cheering for one of the most exciting teams to watch in the league. So if this description fits you, then please check out the other 29 teams forums. I bet Miami/OKC are used to bandwagoners at this point anyways.

This board is not called "RealFan" it's called "RealGM". The assumption must be that we're here not to exclusively talk about what a great dunk that was last night, but to critique moves that the team has made from the perspective of what a, uh, real GM (e.g. like Morey) would do.

That fact is, many of us view the Raptors the way MBA students approach a case study. Yes, it might be more entertaining to simply follow a winning team. But I think it was J-Roc on the Jays board who recently commented on how nerve-wracking it was to be watching a championship contender. Hey, maybe it's more fun to watch and criticize a perennial loser like the Raptors. Every move - e.g. giving up a 2nd rounder for Bassie - can be teased and batted around like a cat toying with a bird. Maybe that's why the Raptor board is by far the busiest on RealGM.

Anyway, it's up to the mods to decide what sort of board they want. Waiving Mustard Tiger was a statement, but after three more years of the team mired somewhere between pretty bad - but not too bad - and gunning for 9th, I wonder if they would do that again.

[DatBoiCapspace]

Bitching about that fact on the internet is just ruining it for people who enjoy cheering for one of the most exciting teams to watch in the league. So if this description fits you, then please check out the other 29 teams forums. I bet Miami/OKC are used to bandwagoners at this point anyways.

This board is not called "RealFan" it's called "RealGM". The assumption must be that we're here not to exclusively talk about what a great dunk that was last night, but to critique moves that the team has made from the perspective of what a, uh, real GM (e.g. like Morey) would do.

That fact is, many of us view the Raptors the way MBA students approach a case study. Yes, it might be more entertaining to simply follow a winning team. But I think it was J-Roc on the Jays board who recently commented on how nerve-wracking it was to be watching a championship contender. Hey, maybe it's more fun to watch and criticize a perennial loser like the Raptors. Every move - e.g. giving up a 2nd rounder for Bassie - can be teased and batted around like a cat toying with a bird. Maybe that's why the Raptor board is by far the busiest on RealGM.

Anyway, it's up to the mods to decide what sort of board they want. Waiving Mustard Tiger was a statement, but after three more years of the team mired somewhere between pretty bad - but not too bad - and gunning for 9th, I wonder if they would do that again.

No one is satisfied with the teams previous record the past 4 years. That is really not the point being made. The point is this bs expectation that anything other then being favourite to win the title is not worthy of cheering for, and we should troll anyone who supports doing anything other then tanking the next 5 years for a small chance a ta once in a generation talent who will give us the smaller chances of building a team to win a title around him. Maybe this board approaches the raptors in the way a bad business student does, but not a good one with any understanding of the macro-situation. If they did, theyd see that we arent winning the title anytime soon and management has no plans to tank anytime soon either. So if you know those two things arent going to happen, then its fair to ask the question why are you still a fan of this team?

[Alfred]

So if we don't like how the team is being run, we're free to go cheer for another team on another forum. How generous of you!

Perhaps people would be more amenable to this whole "win now" approach, if the team was, you know, winning. As in having a positive record. It's not championship or bust for me, it's "have a good team". Since Bryan has taken over, we have had a good team ONCE. We had one season where we were an above average team. Since that first season, it's been a long, slow slide into the basement, with Colangelo flailing about wildly, making one poor move after another.

Colangelo started with a General Manager's wet dream: tons of capspace, the #1 pick in the draft, an All-Star bigman, and a couple of other assets. In 7 years he has turned that into NO capspace, NO pick, NO All-Star and still NO playoffs. That is a massive, massive failure, one that your post cannot handwave away.

Being critical of a team you support is one thing. But If you dont like a single thing the team has done over the past decade, and the only solution to changing our fortunes you can come up with is to trade away all our assets and tank for the next 5 years, and even when we go 6-3 after a trade you still try to trash it because it doesnt make us an automatic contender, then yes there is something wrong with you still being a fan of this team. Were not going to tank and were not going to win a title anytime soon. Bitching about that fact on the internet is just ruining it for people who enjoy cheering for one of the most exciting teams to watch in the league. So if this description fits you, then please check out the other 29 teams forums. I bet Miami/OKC are used to bandwagoners at this point anyways.

I like it when the Raptors do good things, like win games, make a good trade, make a smart draft choice or sign a good free agent. I don't like it when the Raptors do bad things, like lose games, make bad trades, make a poor draft selection or sign useless free agents.

Tell me, what has happened more recently, the Raptors doing good things? Or the Raptors doing bad things? The Raptors have lost more games than they have won, passed on Drummond last draft, do not have a draft pick this season, and signed Landry Fields to a 20 million dollar contract. A 9 game sample size (most of them at home) against teams that were missing their best players isn't going to make me ignore the overwhelming bad things that Bryan Colangelo has done.

I don't like being critical. I would absolutely love it if the Raptors were competitive, and I could simply talk about how great the team was. Unfortunately, the team isn't good and I don't like sugarcoating turds.

[DatBoiCapspace]

I like it when the Raptors do good things, like win games, make a good trade, make a smart draft choice or sign a good free agent. I don't like it when the Raptors do bad things, like lose games, make bad trades, make a poor draft selection or sign useless free agents.

Tell me, what has happened more recently, the Raptors doing good things? Or the Raptors doing bad things? The Raptors have lost more games than they have won, passed on Drummond last draft, do not have a draft pick this season, and signed Landry Fields to a 20 million dollar contract. A 9 game sample size (most of them at home) against teams that were missing their best players isn't going to make me ignore the overwhelming bad things that Bryan Colangelo has done.

I don't like being critical. I would absolutely love it if the Raptors were competitive, and I could simply talk about how great the team was. Unfortunately, the team isn't good and I don't like sugarcoating turds.

The only evidence we have to go by is the 9 games because thats the amount this current team has played. And the schedule was tough, you forgot IND and NYK with their all-stars, no one expected them to play this good. I am not saying to be ecstatic, I myself have serious doubts about how good this team can be. But if you actually dont want this team to finish anything above tenth, because you think itll prove some infantile point about how to build a team then your just being a troll at this point. If you want the team to be competitive thats awesome. But if you want the team to suck because they didnt build the way you wanted them too, then its fair to say gtfo,

[Double Helix]

So if we don't like how the team is being run, we're free to go cheer for another team on another forum. How generous of you!

Perhaps people would be more amenable to this whole "win now" approach, if the team was, you know, winning. As in having a positive record. It's not championship or bust for me, it's "have a good team". Since Bryan has taken over, we have had a good team ONCE. We had one season where we were an above average team. Since that first season, it's been a long, slow slide into the basement, with Colangelo flailing about wildly, making one poor move after another.

Colangelo started with a General Manager's wet dream: tons of capspace, the #1 pick in the draft, an All-Star bigman, and a couple of other assets. In 7 years he has turned that into NO capspace, NO pick, NO All-Star and still NO playoffs. That is a massive, massive failure, one that your post cannot handwave away.

Being critical of a team you support is one thing. But If you dont like a single thing the team has done over the past decade, and the only solution to changing our fortunes you can come up with is to trade away all our assets and tank for the next 5 years, and even when we go 6-3 after a trade you still try to trash it because it doesnt make us an automatic contender, then yes there is something wrong with you still being a fan of this team. Were not going to tank and were not going to win a title anytime soon. Bitching about that fact on the internet is just ruining it for people who enjoy cheering for one of the most exciting teams to watch in the league. So if this description fits you, then please check out the other 29 teams forums. I bet Miami/OKC are used to bandwagoners at this point anyways.

I like it when the Raptors do good things, like win games, make a good trade, make a smart draft choice or sign a good free agent. I don't like it when the Raptors do bad things, like lose games, make bad trades, make a poor draft selection or sign useless free agents.

Tell me, what has happened more recently, the Raptors doing good things? Or the Raptors doing bad things? The Raptors have lost more games than they have won, passed on Drummond last draft, do not have a draft pick this season, and signed Landry Fields to a 20 million dollar contract. A 9 game sample size (most of them at home) against teams that were missing their best players isn't going to make me ignore the overwhelming bad things that Bryan Colangelo has done.

I don't like being critical. I would absolutely love it if the Raptors were competitive, and I could simply talk about how great the team was. Unfortunately, the team isn't good and I don't like sugarcoating turds.

It isn't about the past though. That's part of the issue. We are talking about the present team and the present team is good. It's 6-3 since Rudy came here with wins over some very good ball clubs. We've played 9 of the top 14 best defensive teams in the league since Rudy came here. Why are we still talking about past failures with this going on?

The era of Jose and Andrea playing 30 mpg is no more. If that's what many hated around here then rejoice. It's over. Bargnani is the 6th man so many wanted him to be. We have some 2-way players finally. Look at my signature. That happened recently. We have looked good with Rudy, Jonas and Kyle all playing big minutes and that's what we'll have to start the season next year. We will likely be staring down the 8th place spot this year. If we retain a 55-60% winning % the rest of this year is there any doubt that we could be competing in a 4/5 battle next season in the East? The teams in 4, 5 and 6 in the East right now are in that .550-.600 range.

But there's none of that excitement and instead there's just the same old troll threads about how bad all our players are.

[niQ]

Our new era will officially start once Bargani is off the team. I'm sure more people we be on board then.

[DatBoiCapspace]

Our new era will officially start once Bargani is off the team. I'm sure there will be more optimism then.

Lol fat chance with this crowd. By then Wiggins will be in the league and itll be nothing but bitch bitch bitch why couldnt we tank for him?

[Alfred]

I like it when the Raptors do good things, like win games, make a good trade, make a smart draft choice or sign a good free agent. I don't like it when the Raptors do bad things, like lose games, make bad trades, make a poor draft selection or sign useless free agents.

Tell me, what has happened more recently, the Raptors doing good things? Or the Raptors doing bad things? The Raptors have lost more games than they have won, passed on Drummond last draft, do not have a draft pick this season, and signed Landry Fields to a 20 million dollar contract. A 9 game sample size (most of them at home) against teams that were missing their best players isn't going to make me ignore the overwhelming bad things that Bryan Colangelo has done.

I don't like being critical. I would absolutely love it if the Raptors were competitive, and I could simply talk about how great the team was. Unfortunately, the team isn't good and I don't like sugarcoating turds.

The only evidence we have to go by is the 9 games because thats the amount this current team has played. And the schedule was tough, you forgot IND and NYK with their all-stars, no one expected them to play this good. I am not saying to be ecstatic, I myself have serious doubts about how good this team can be. But if you actually dont want this team to finish anything above tenth, because you think itll prove some infantile point about how to build a team then your just being a troll at this point. If you want the team to be competitive thats awesome. But if you want the team to suck because they didnt build the way you wanted them too, then its fair to say gtfo,

I would love it if the Raptors finished above 10th this year. I have been to many live Raptors games and cheered them on personally, and when I'm not at the game, I'm posting in the game thread. I want the Raptors to be as good as they can possibly be, and why not? We don't have our draft pick this year. I was a huge Bryan Colangelo homer for the first half of his tenure, as many on this forum can attest to. The problem is that I no longer have confidence in his vision, or his moves, and I am not optimistic about the state of the team moving forward with him at the helm.

Trying to be realistic is the motive behind the things that I say, not some strange point-proving quest.

[carlosey]

Everyone has a right to complain about anything really, but some take it to the point they look like whiney little bitches.

[Trilogy]

DH, I really appreciate your optimism and opinions when you post, but this thread reeks of a holier than thou kind of mindset. I've never appreciated someone who tells me how I should be a fan of a sports team. There are people who troll of course, but having a negative/critical view of a team does not equate to being less of a fan than someone with a positive outlook.

I get where your coming from and you're feeling good about where the team is going, but that doesn't necessarily mean that anyone who has reservations about what we're doing going forward is wrong to feel that way.

Plus, the past is relevant. The Toronto Raptors and Bryan Colangelo have been absolutely horrible for a number of years. The burden is on them and not the fans to restore faith.

A lot of fans would be more willing to read into positives if there was a better track record, but there isn't. It's been a good stretch, but it's ultimately just 9 games. Let's see where this goes over a bigger sample size.