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Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry

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Re: Re: Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#141 » by Chad_Warden » Mon May 16, 2016 11:43 pm

RaptorsFTL wrote:
Chad_Warden wrote:
RaptorsFTL wrote:
Well, if anyone would know about asinine statements, it would be you.


Quite the response. Bravo. Again let's repeat what you said and are trying to ignore:

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.



Again, I wasn't the one who brought up "heart". Were it up to me we'd stick to PER, win shares, TS%, adjusted plus/minus, etc. It was Danny who brought up "heart".

I'm not trying to "ignore" anything. Were I the one to first mention "heart" in this thread, I'd own up to making a stupid statement. Which Danny is not doing.

This is hilarious. Again, you're saying I didn't start the conversation of saying something stupid, and still not admitting that you went along to that same line of thinking and said something just as silly, and are now deflecting left and right from your statement because you didn't start it.[/quote]


You're unbelievable. Not only did I not bring up "heart", my comments about "heart" weren't even directed towards you. They were directed towards another poster.

Yet you are so obsessed with me, you just can't let it go.

Seek professional help. Now. In the meantime, stop worrying about what I say to other posters.
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Re: Re: Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#142 » by Badonkadonk » Tue May 17, 2016 12:35 am

Chad_Warden wrote:
Badonkadonk wrote:
Chad_Warden wrote:
Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

No, he showed more talent. He showed his true potential.

If Vince had dedicated himself at least half as much to his craft as Lowry did in the offseason to transform his body and take his game to the next level, we'd be talking about him in an entirely different context in terms of where he fits in NBA history, not just the greatest Raptor.

That's the whole frustration with Vince.

Could you ever imagine Kyle's teammates reacting like Vince's did after he admitted he wasn't hungry or didn't work as hard as he could have?

Article: http://www.spursreport.com/forums/spurs-nba-fan-feedback/25016-vince-carter-admits-what-we-knew-all-along.html


But Lowry didn't tranform his body until after his 9th season in the league. Before that he was fat as ****. Vince wasn't even on the Raptors by his 9th-10th season in the league. He left in the middle of his 7th. By the middle of his 7th season Lowry was still fat.

Your argument makes no sense. Why would Vince needed to "transform his body" when he was with the Raptors anyways? He never allowed himself to get fat like Lowry. He stayed lean the whole time.

Your rebuttal makes no sense - Lowry took the initiative to make a change after he was dissatisfied with his performance following a disappointing playoff run. Carter never had such an epiphany while with the Raptors or for the entirety of his career. He floated by on talent.

Lowry set a goal and is reaping the results; as somebody else pointed out, he leads all players in net differential these playoffs and has been the leader and best player on a team that has gone farther than any of Vince's teams. Vince was never the best player on a team that went into the ECF despite having the kind of talent that could have made him one of the best guards in NBA history.

Could you ever imagine Kyle's teammates reacting like Vince's did after he admitted he wasn't hungry or didn't work as hard as he could have?


Vince was honest and told the truth. Lowry didn't work as hard as he could have his first 9 years in the league. If he was he wouldn't have been so fat. And he wouldn't have choked in the playoffs in 2015.

Only difference is Vince was honest. I have yet to see Lowry be honest and admit he didn't work as hard as he could have.

There was no truth for Lowry to reveal - Carter was "honest" because his heart was regularly challenged and written about by the media. He was forced to be "honest". The first time Lowry was put in the same position that Carter was in (i.e. playoff disappointment as the leader of a team), he made changes. Whether it came 9 years into his career is irrelevant, that moment never came for Vince, nor did he ever show that kind of leadership or commitment by example.

If you think the only difference between Kyle and Vince is how honest each was, then I'm not surprised that you're missing why Kyle is getting more respect in the context of "greatest Raptor". Most influential? Most talented in team history? Sure, you can give those to Vince. But Kyle has contributed more to the success of the Raptors in his 25 playoff games than Vince ever did in his 15 playoff games.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#143 » by gamer4Life » Tue May 17, 2016 1:04 am

Vince haters are still salty after all this time.

Vince was put in a tougher situation than Lowry - terrible management, terrible coach, terrible teammates, and a puckhead media jealous of the growing interest in the Raptors.

He re-signed with Toronto, even when every other team would have given him the max, along with lower taxes, better weather, imperial system, etc..

He hosted charity games during the offseason and donated a basketball court.

He was a better player also - it's funny that the media and even Leo kept knocking him for shooting 3s. Now it's the norm in the league.

Lowry needs a couple more all-star seasons before he compares to Vince.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#144 » by vaff87 » Tue May 17, 2016 1:13 am

gamer4Life wrote:Vince haters are still salty after all this time.

Vince was put in a tougher situation than Lowry - terrible management, terrible coach, terrible teammates, and a puckhead media jealous of the growing interest in the Raptors.

He re-signed with Toronto, even when every other team would have given him the max, along with lower taxes, better weather, imperial system, etc..

He hosted charity games during the offseason and donated a basketball court.

He was a better player also - it's funny that the media and even Leo kept knocking him for shooting 3s. Now it's the norm in the league.

Lowry needs a couple more all-star seasons before he compares to Vince.


It's not that people are Vince haters, they just know he's not this mythical legend his fans make him out to be.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#145 » by gamer4Life » Tue May 17, 2016 1:15 am

vaff87 wrote:
It's not that people are Vince haters, they just know he's not this mythical legend his fans make him out to be.


Nah, aside from his dunking, he was far from legendary. No one close to being a "legend" in Raptors history.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#146 » by tms » Tue May 17, 2016 1:33 am

1999. Vince was doing things every night- not just dunks but game winners and everything else. i remember a friend storming into math class one morning soo wired, put his hand on my back and kneeled down in my face yelling like a psychotic wrestler (i could smell the roids leaking out of his butt), "He's Michael Jordan! Better than Jordan! Best player ever-- no. Best player ever!"

they didnt even make the playoffs in 99 lol

that's how bad they were the year before.

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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#147 » by Steelo Green » Tue May 17, 2016 1:39 am

vaff87 wrote:
gamer4Life wrote:Vince haters are still salty after all this time.

Vince was put in a tougher situation than Lowry - terrible management, terrible coach, terrible teammates, and a puckhead media jealous of the growing interest in the Raptors.

He re-signed with Toronto, even when every other team would have given him the max, along with lower taxes, better weather, imperial system, etc..

He hosted charity games during the offseason and donated a basketball court.

He was a better player also - it's funny that the media and even Leo kept knocking him for shooting 3s. Now it's the norm in the league.

Lowry needs a couple more all-star seasons before he compares to Vince.


It's not that people are Vince haters, they just know he's not this mythical legend his fans make him out to be.


Exactly. People are making excuses for Vince which they would never give Lowry, as though they saw Vince and the kids today would never know what Vince provided because they didn't see him (which is funny because most of the people who love this team are the people in their thirties and forties who have seen all the ups and downs of this team).

Vince won one round in his Raptors history people. Everyone talked about 56 wins being meaningless, have to show it in the PO, now they are going to the ECF and the excuses for Vince are coming out of the woodwork.

I love how people talk of fat Lowry et al as well when Vince said from his mouth that he didn't try his hardest in past years.

I am huge Vince fan for what he did when eh was here, and it's been years, but damn, don't change history and make Vince this untouchable legend.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#148 » by DrCoach » Tue May 17, 2016 1:43 am

Lawd have mercy

Lowry is a good player

No way on earth he is the best Raptor Ever

Vince Carter is, and I'm not a VC Lover.

VC is the Jordan of Canada, he put Canada on the map and made Canada a Basketball Country.

Millions of boys wanted to be VC, like Wiggins etc..

VC represented world wide in the Olympics

He was the leading vote getter in multiple all star games

He is considered the greatest Dunker ever by many

He gave birth to a nation of fans

Statistically, Lowry doesn't touch him either.

Just stop the hyperbole , I like Lowry, he is tough and clutch but two weeks ago many here wanted him gone.
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Re: Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#149 » by Raps in 4 » Tue May 17, 2016 1:54 am

gamer4Life wrote:Vince was put in a tougher situation than Lowry - terrible management, terrible coach, terrible teammates, and a puckhead media jealous of the growing interest in the Raptors.


That's not far off from Lowry's situation. Sure Lowry's scrubs are much more complementary to his skill set than were Bosh's and Carter's, but let's not pretend like he's playing on some star studded roster coached by a basketball savant.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#150 » by SuigintouEV » Tue May 17, 2016 2:23 am

DrCoach wrote:VC is the Jordan of Canada, he put Canada on the map and made Canada a Basketball Country.


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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#151 » by DrCoach » Tue May 17, 2016 2:36 am

SuigintouEV wrote:
DrCoach wrote:VC is the Jordan of Canada, he put Canada on the map and made Canada a Basketball Country.


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Sorry, VC was blowing up years before Nash's MVP's
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Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#152 » by basketball royalty » Tue May 17, 2016 2:40 am

basketball royalty wrote:After the Final buzzer of yesterday's game 7 I turned to my brother and said "Its official, Kyle Lowry is the greatest Raptor of All Time".


Guys, you seemed to have missed my post. This was basically an
/thread post.

Kyle Lowry is no. 1. It was going to happen anyways whether the Guys hanging on to VC like it or not. The time is now.

Yes, Vince was popular, best dunker of all time, allstar, most talented but he also left on bad terms, was a poor leader and at times made a mockery of the game with his lassie fare attitude. Kids in Canada like bball because of him but hey, we finally had a bball team, good chance 20 + years in,these kids would like bball anyway.

It's time substance over style takes it's proper place on the mantle.



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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#153 » by bballsparkin » Tue May 17, 2016 3:45 am

I still feel like VC is the greatest Raptor. To me, it seems some of you sell him short due to personal biases. There is no doubt that Lowry is the heart of this team though. And if he comes out and has a monster series against the Cavs helping us win a couple games I'd be willing to consider him the greatest.
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Re: Re: Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#154 » by Danny1616 » Tue May 17, 2016 4:10 am

Chad_Warden wrote:
smallgains wrote:Vince is a true one way player with the heart of the Tinman.


Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.


Hey buddy, am I the guy that brought up heart first? This is the message I responded to. You explicitly stated Carter showed more heart in that 50 point game then Lowry showed his entire career.

Case closed.
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Re: Re: Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#155 » by Rasho is god » Tue May 17, 2016 5:54 am

Danny1616 wrote:
Chad_Warden wrote:
smallgains wrote:Vince is a true one way player with the heart of the Tinman.


Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.


Hey buddy, am I the guy that brought up heart first? This is the message I responded to. You explicitly stated Carter showed more heart in that 50 point game then Lowry showed his entire career.

Case closed.


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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#156 » by Kabookalu » Tue May 17, 2016 6:04 am

Vince Carter's work ethic actually wasn't the problem, kind of. He worked hard on his game, improving his handles, shot, and playmaking throughout the course of his career. The problem was that he didn't exhibit the kind of fire and passion you'd expect from a franchise player, especially towards the end of his tenure with us.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#157 » by TOStateofMind » Tue May 17, 2016 6:23 am

Its close, Klow pretty much put himself right there again thanks to his last few performances and leading the team to the ecf.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#158 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Tue May 17, 2016 1:02 pm

Comparing the VC from the rimmed out shot away from the ECF to the Lowry that just got the Raps to the ECF?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=cartevi01&y1=2001&p2=lowryky01&y2=2016&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Eerily similar impact during the regular season, but Carter (compared to Lowry's to-date playoff performance) played far superior in the playoffs. Carter was an offensive juggernaut of the league back then (top 3 offensive player in the league) but the knocks on him was his average defense and his lack of leadership. Lowry really plays the game backwards as compared to Carter where he embraces leadership, a gritty tough style of play, and he is a two way player.

The funniest argument I have had in the past few days with regards to this is the hypothetical of the team results of "swapping them". Ie: 00-01 Carter on this Raps team without Lowry, 15-16 Lowry on the 00-01 Raps team without Carter. It would change the identity of both teams completely.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#159 » by Reg00 » Tue May 17, 2016 1:27 pm

At this point Vince had absolutely left the team, while actually still wearing a Raps jersey. I don't hate Vince but you have to look at his Raps history in its entirety rather than the "highs", which not that high in the first place.

I'm not too interested in the hypothetical theories people are throwing out, but the actualities. The fake injuries, the mom issues, the losing interest in playing the game(and admitting after the fact). Vince was a fragile guy with a lot of talent. He could have been part of the solution in Raps land but decided to be part of the problem. Also, I always found it annoying he couldn't keep the McGrady thing together; they were related and they could have been great, but he couldn't find a way to share the team with him.

There can be no other than Lowry right now.
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Re: Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry 

Post#160 » by Reg00 » Tue May 17, 2016 1:34 pm

DrCoach wrote:Lawd have mercy

Lowry is a good player

No way on earth he is the best Raptor Ever

Vince Carter is, and I'm not a VC Lover.

VC is the Jordan of Canada, he put Canada on the map and made Canada a Basketball Country.

Millions of boys wanted to be VC, like Wiggins etc..

VC represented world wide in the Olympics

He was the leading vote getter in multiple all star games

He is considered the greatest Dunker ever by many

He gave birth to a nation of fans

Statistically, Lowry doesn't touch him either.

Just stop the hyperbole , I like Lowry, he is tough and clutch but two weeks ago many here wanted him gone.


There isn't a lot of Raptors related successes in that list I would like to point out. He shined very brightly, but as a Raptor (ignoring all the "soft power" reasons) he did not have a lot of team sucess. You say that's not on him, but I disagree: the guy quit on a team, there isn't' much debate to that.
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