Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry

[The_Toro]

Last 2 games: 39.5 mins, 35.5 pts, 48.9 FG%, 66.7 3PT%, 81.0 FT%
Last 3 games: 40.0 mins, 32.0 pts, 44.4 FG%, 57.1 3PT%, 80.0 FT%

Yikes

that is scary good

[sca]

Westbrook over AI? That's pretty laughable.

I'd also like to remind you that AI won his MVP in an era when Shaq, Duncan etc. were in their respective primes. If you think Westbrook could have achieved that than a) he'd have a damn MVP already and b) you're telling me prime Curry > prime Shaq/Duncan. I can't take you seriously.

AI may be the most overrated player of his generation, with his low % shooting, lack of 3 point shot, terrible defense and high turnovers.

T-Mac is out of touch. Players today would clown those guys collectively. The talent level in the league is so much higher now. Westbrook would be a god in that league physically and that's just the start.

Every generation is faster, stronger and more skilled than the last. I could only take a handful from the guys I grew up watching (Larry, Magic, Doc, Kareem, Dream) who could hang with the one that followed (Jordan's era) and only a handful of those guys that could hang with the guys now.

On point, Carter may have shone the brightest but Lowry is easily the best in terms of the impact he's had on team success.

As I said above, he has a 48 TS%. He is in no away carrying the team like 2000-2001 Carter did in the playoffs. Its not even close. He was thoroughly outplayed by Paul George in the first round and outplayed by Wade this series.

Let's not kid ourselves, we wouldn't be in the ECF if not for our huge advantage at the centre position. Our centres have been bailing out the brick bros all playoffs long. JV and Biyombo vs Mahini and rookie Turner? JV + biyomob vs Whiteside + Amare? Then, BIyombo vs. rookie SF Winslow? We've been living on the offense glass. The Heat's bigs have been so bad it makes 2pat look like Moses Malone out there.

And since you like chirping about eras, the Eastern conference big men are watered down. JV/Biyomobo would not be having their way with Camby and Mutombo like they did in these first 2 rounds.

raptors w/ lowry in the p/o's: +70-something
raptors w/o lowry in the p/o's: -60-something

case closed

[LLJ]

raptors w/ lowry in the p/o's: +70-something
raptors w/o lowry in the p/o's: -60-something

case closed

I'm sure if you took VC off the 2001 team, it might be similar.

Carter in 2001 was amazing in the playoffs. Just needed more help. It was a 47 win team. And, if you look at his advanced stats, it was his best playoff year EVER. That really was his peak. He never reached the same level after that, and in fact his impact as a player and VORP rating after 2001 was far below the numbers he put up that year.

I think Carter at his best is the more talented and better player, but he never was able to sustain the hunger that Lowry has had. That's why while VC at his peak was definitely the better player, Lowry is the better Raptor. Lowry is less talented, with some far worse performances at times over the past 3 years, but gave more of himself to us and kept "pounding the rock" year after year until he made a breakthrough for the team and himself.

[Anatomize]

Westbrook is to Allen Iverson, what Lebron James is to Rudy Gay. I say this as a fan of Iverson's heart and willingness to take a hit to make a play. He fit perfectly on that team but his MVP is one of the black stains on NBA history.

You're crazy.. Larry Brown was a defense first coach/the team didn't give Iverson any offensive talent in his prime and he carried that team all the way to the NBA finals..

Iverson was a generational talent, he was one of the first tweener combo scoring guards, and completely unstoppable in his prime. He would play with fractures/broken bones/major injuries, he would take the biggest hits, and he would just bounce back and go at it again. It wasn't just heart, he was just a pure money scorer, and he always carried his team in clutch moments. IMO most people just remember Iverson for his last few years in Denver/Philly where he was a ball hog and didn't have the same explosive scoring ability. This guy used to regularly rain 50 points in the playoffs while being completely undersized/wiry built with a very crappy offensive system and his secondary scorers barely being able to take any pressure off him (the likes of Mckie - the only decent offensive player, Snow, Tyrone Hill, and whatever other defense first scrubs they had at that time).

Comparing Rudy Gay and Allen Iverson is one of the biggest insults I've ever seen..

Iverson was my favorite player growing up. He was a generational talent, but he also pissed it all away. The man could have went down as the greatest point guard of all time, but his lack of work ethic and hubris impeded him from his true potential. Pound for pound he might be the most athletic basketball player of all time. This guy was capable of beating double and triple teams on a routinely basis, though that's the problem, Iverson was so full of himself and made it his mission to beat these double and triple teams while abandoning all regard of team play. If you think DeRozan is a ballhog, Iverson is in a class of his own.

Truth be told, Iverson scaled his balhogging down when he was traded to Denver, but he was still a huge ballhog. I wouldn't make the argument but there are some that think Iverson's best days are with the Nuggets, just because he was a little more open minded about being a team player.

Russell Westbrook was at one point the second coming of Allen Iverson, but his playmaking and team play has improved significantly. Put Iverson on the Thunder and they're not getting past the Spurs.

Westbrook is superior to AI and I would much rather have him myself, but I don't care for that comparison personally, they're different types of players, I take issue with anyone comparing Rudy Gay and Iverson.

[ATLTimekeeper]

As I said above, he has a 48 TS%. He is in no away carrying the team like 2000-2001 Carter did in the playoffs. Its not even close. He was thoroughly outplayed by Paul George in the first round and outplayed by Wade this series.
.

It's funny that he probably did get outplayed by Wade overall, but all I remember are those daggers Lowry hit on Miami all series long. I mean we could probably make a collection of Riley reactions right now to all of Lowry's daggers this series. Wade didn't really have the same number of moments.

In retrospect, Game 3 was the game that stole the series for us. Wade was unstoppable that game all around, but Lowry just got super hot at the right time.
At the same time, if we had won Game 4, we probably win the series earlier.

Only foul trouble slowed Lowry down. Even when he was sucking, he was making big plays when it mattered. I don't think it's even questionable that Lowry is the greatest Raptor ever. Best combination of leadership, offense, defense, toughness. The only thing he lacks is fanboys because he doesn't have sick dribbling skills and doesn't dunk and wasn't a high pick. Does he have a single fanboy on this site? We all just take him for granted.

[yodamaster]

Lowry is the Best Raptor ever.

Carter is the most talented to date.

[sca]

raptors w/ lowry in the p/o's: +70-something
raptors w/o lowry in the p/o's: -60-something

case closed

I'm sure if you took VC off the 2001 team, it might be similar.

Carter in 2001 was amazing in the playoffs. Just needed more help. It was a 47 win team. And, if you look at his advanced stats, it was his best playoff year EVER. That really was his peak. He never reached the same level after that, and in fact his impact as a player and VORP rating after 2001 was far below the numbers he put up that year.

I think Carter at his best is the more talented and better player, but he never was able to sustain the hunger that Lowry has had. That's why while VC at his peak was definitely the better player, Lowry is the better Raptor. Lowry is less talented, with some far worse performances at times over the past 3 years, but gave more of himself to us and kept "pounding the rock" year after year until he made a breakthrough for the team and himself.

Oh, I've seen prime Vince play. But when you factor in leadership, rebounding, defense, motor, hustle etc. into play, I think Lowry is just a better basketball player, despite how dominant VC appeared to be at times.

Lowry is just a brilliant basketball mind. I'd say he's the most cerebral Raptor ever, through the millions of years of raptors' history.

[GP2]

Kyle is what, 6'1? And probably not the craziest wingspan either. Yet he's able to be a juggernaut on BOTH sides of the court. Most players his size are relegated to offense only and have to be hidden on defense. The impact he has is mind boggling.

[LLJ]

Kyle is what, 6'1? And probably not the craziest wingspan either. Yet he's able to be a juggernaut on BOTH sides of the court. Most players his size are relegated to offense only and have to be hidden on defense. The impact he has is mind boggling.

I believe Lowry actually has very good wingspan measurements for his size. I remember when he was Houston people compared him to an even shorter Barkley. A round ball with long arms.

[vdhawan17]

Really?

2000-01 year of Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KG, AI, Carter, J-Kidd etc. easily kills and destroys 2015-16 Curry, LeBron, Westbrook, Durant, CP3 and its not even close. I'm not going to even mention how the 90's talent of MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone etc. also put the current pool of watered down talent to shame as well. T-Mac may be a douche, but he's damn right on this point and how today's generation have lowered the bar on what "greatness" is.

lol no, just no. Iverson and Kidd wouldn't be top 5 players today. You can make the argument the top 5 of those eras are better than the top 5 of this years (wouldn't agree with it though), but from 6-20, this is the most talented I've ever seen the league.

Westbrook over AI? That's pretty laughable.

I'd also like to remind you that AI won his MVP in an era when Shaq, Duncan etc. were in their respective primes. If you think Westbrook could have achieved that than a) he'd have a damn MVP already and b) you're telling me prime Curry > prime Shaq/Duncan. I can't take you seriously.

Westbrook over AI all day.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[vdhawan17]

Lowry is the Best Raptor ever.

Carter is the most talented to date.

Fair assessment. Lowry has 10x the heart of carter. And that's what makes him the best raptor ever.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[smallgains]

As great as Lowry has been, don't discredit what VC did.

He had much tougher competition than Lowry does in the current NBA.

Like T-Mac said, the NBA is watered down now.

Lowry plays point in the modern NBA. The point guards of today are the one position of the game that has progressed unbelievably. Playing the point nowadays is like being in a shark tank. You never really get a night off.

No one would question Vinces athletic ability or his talent, but he didn't affect all aspects of the game for his team and he had zero heart.

[Hog]

As great as Lowry has been, don't discredit what VC did.

He had much tougher competition than Lowry does in the current NBA.

Like T-Mac said, the NBA is watered down now.

Please, let's not glorify the past.
The best player on the 2001 Knicks was Latrell Sprewell, who was so inefficient he had a TS% of .497.
Iverson wasn't much better, at .518% TS.

Vince played in an era where DeMar DeRozan and his .550 would be considered elite level of efficiency. Defensively you could get away with crappy man defense because the team behind you could get away with overhelping because barely anybody could truly punish you from range other than stars like Peja, Reggie, and RayRay. You think the East is bad now? This brick bros Raps team would have swept the 2001 Sixers. Swept.

Vince was a very good player relative to his era. But the talent pool in the NBA was at an all time low in that post-expansation, pre-Euro era. Vince did not play against much tougher competition.

Brilliantly said.

[UnRealGM]

Keon Clark respectfully disagrees.

[NeoDragonKnight]

Different eras, you can't compare stats between Lowry and Carter. As many many stars have said (and I think Reggie Miller said it), you as a Franchise player, are judged by the success in the playoffs. Lowry has now passed Carter in that, so I think Kyle can be crowned greatest. That isn't to say Carter wasn't great in his own right, both are the truest Franchise players we have ever had that could carry a team to some success, they had "It", Bosh was close to a true Franchise player, but lacked "It".

[Chad_Warden]

These kids today are funny

[LLJ]

Different eras, you can't compare stats between Lowry and Carter. As many many stars have said (and I think Reggie Miller said it), you as a Franchise player, are judged by the success in the playoffs. Lowry has now passed Carter in that, so I think Kyle can be crowned greatest. That isn't to say Carter wasn't great in his own right, both are the truest Franchise players we have ever had that could carry a team to some success, they had "It", Bosh was close to a true Franchise player, but lacked "It".

It's not fair, but playoff success defines so much. McGrady at his best was probably a better player than ALL of Lowry, VC and Bosh yet he never made it out of round 1 as a "franchise" player. Chris Paul is still the Conference Virgin despite putting up HOF calibre numbers. I mean, you look at Lowry's season stats this year and are impressed? Chris Paul has been doing the same (and more) year after year since his rookie year. And he's had better playoff performances and better consistency than Lowry too. And yet, casual viewers still see him as can't make it out of round 2.

It's so important for teams to maximize the team around a great player. Masai (and BC to some extent) laid a great foundation around Lowry that helped him maximize his career far beyond anyone could have thought possible out of him. In a different scenario, Lowry would never have been "the guy" on any NBA team, or maybe never would have had a team help him get far enough into the playoffs to give him the chance at having that Game 7 performance.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

[Geddy]

Vince never had a well rounded roster during his playoff runs. If you look at the 2001 roster its just Vince, Alvin, Antonio Davis and a handful of guys in their 30s who were on the tail ends of their careers. You also have to consider that even though Lenny Wilkins is an acclaimed coach, and as much as people hate Casey, those teams weren't as well coached on both ends of the floor as this current team.

[Tacoma]

As great as Lowry has been, don't discredit what VC did.

He had much tougher competition than Lowry does in the current NBA.

Like T-Mac said, the NBA is watered down now.

T-Mac is wrong. I've been watching the NBA for a long time and this is the most talent the league has ever seen in one year since probably the 80's. In any other year Russell Westbrook is the best player in the league. In any other year Kevin Durant is the best player in the league. Neither are the best player in the league right now. DeMarcus Cousins and Anthony Davis, two incredible big men talents, aren't even top 5 players. Damien Lillard, an incredible point guard, is at best only a top 3 point guard. Kawhi Leonard is the best perimeter defender of all time and he's still growing. Karl Anthony Towns is the best rookie we've seen in a while and he's bound to become a superstar. John Wall, Blake Griffin, Jimmy Butler, we have so many stars in this league that are being overlooked.

I'm not convinced the players you quoted disproves T-Mac's point.

As good as Westbrook is today, he's not as good as where MVP Iverson was then. Kevin Garnett was better than today's Kevin Durant. And Cousins is no better than Chris Webber or Karl Malone back those days. Damien Lillard? Sorry but Gary Payton was much better especially if you consider both sides of the floor. Kawhi Leanard? Well his current teammate, Tim Duncan, was better back in those days.

True, Curry is generational talent, but so was prime Shaq back in those days. Today's Lebron vs. then Kobe? Close. Towns as best rookie? He doesn't beat LeBron or Wade who came on as rookies in 2003. Not mentioned were Dirk, prime Vince, T-Mac himself, Grant Hill, Pierce, Ray Allen, etc... It's hard to compare different time periods and I hate to agree with T-Mac but he's not wrong.

On topic of this thread, IMO, Vince remains the best Raptors player ever. Lowry is the better leader and his team today is better than Vince's team. That 2001 team was all Vince, without whom they'd be a lottery team.

[SuigintouEV]

You're crazy.. Larry Brown was a defense first coach/the team didn't give Iverson any offensive talent in his prime and he carried that team all the way to the NBA finals..

Okay, stop there. That's what perception is, but let's put away the feelings and think for a second.

1) The 2001 Sixers surrounded AI with players who could simply co-exist at all with AI. Theo Ratliff, Aaron McKie, Dikembe Mutombo, Eric Snow. What was AI? He was a 5'11" inefficient shooting guard who could create his own shot, and got to play on a team of guys who did literally everything at a high level except for creating their own shot (defending, rebounding, PG who defended SGs exceptionally, and bigs who shut down the paint. Who really carried that team all the way to the NBA Finals, AI and his 32.9 points on 30.0 FGA per game, or exceptional team defense? Did that team need AI to create shots? Yes, because that team was built around AI alone - it was not a team built to win a championship, it was a team built to get as close as possible around their star player. AI could not have functioned with a high usage teammate, which is a basic requirement of an NBA championship. AI could do one thing at an elite level, and that was create shots for himself. The problem is that he didn't actually put those shots into the bucket. That 2001 Playoff run? AI shot .389 from the field. That's carrying his team? That's barely better than DeMar DeRozan. You're watching our Raptors' playoff run, do you think DeMar DeRozan is "carrying" us?

Being able to create shots for yourself does not mean you are carrying your team. It does not even mean you deserve to be a first option.

Iverson was a generational talent,

How so? Creating a lot of shots while being a high usage player does not make you generational. Iverson was an exceptionally poor defender who got away with playing passing lanes because his team covered for him> Iverson was a terrible point guard who couldn't involve teammates into an offense with any flow. He couldn't run a pick and roll very well. He was too undersized to be a SG. He Iverson was not an efficient scorer even by his era's standard. It's insulting to generational talents to put AI in the mix with them. He was a volume scorer who could create his own shot. And even his best skill, his handles and cross over dribble, have been improved upon and refined by modern guards. The only reason he's in the Hall of Fame is because he had the green light to ISO and chuck for an entire career, and once, everything fell perfectly into place in a weak conference with a team built as perfectly around him (though imperfectly on a whole) as possible.

he was one of the first tweener combo scoring guards,

Not really, no. There were Combo Guards decades before Iverson. Heck, Pete Maravich was basically a tall Iverson, and no one is running around calling him a generational basketball player.

and completely unstoppable in his prime.

It was tough to stop AI from getting a shot off.
It was easy to stop AI from scoring, because he missed on more possessions than he made.

He would play with fractures/broken bones/major injuries, he would take the biggest hits, and he would just bounce back and go at it again.

I agree, this is true and I loved that about AI. BUt I can separate that from his actual quality as a player.

It wasn't just heart, he was just a pure money scorer, and he always carried his team in clutch moments. IMO most people just remember Iverson for his last few years in Denver/Philly where he was a ball hog and didn't have the same explosive scoring ability.

Funny you say that. Those handful of final prime years were the three most efficient years of AI's career and he was willing to share the ball with Webber, Iguodala, and Melo. He just wasn't very good at it.

This guy used to regularly rain 50 points in the playoffs while being completely undersized/wiry built with a very crappy offensive system and his secondary scorers barely being able to take any pressure off him (the likes of Mckie - the
only decent offensive player, Snow, Tyrone Hill, and whatever other defense first scrubs they had at that time).

Cherry-picking history much? From that SAME playoff run, Iverson had:

a game where he had 16 points on 26 shots
a game where he had 15 points on 27 shots
a game where he had 21 points on 27 shots
a game where he had 20 points on 24 shots
a game where he had 23 points on 29 shots

Yes, AI was a threat to go off for 50+ on any night. As any star player taking 30, 40 shots a night is a threat to do. That doesn't make him #generational, it makes him a very good shot-creator who sometimes even made his shots. His scoring titles are simply put the least efficient in basketball history, which means he shot too much compared to other scoring title winners.

Seriously, you wanna compare generational vs non-generational?

This season, MVP Curry scored 30.1 PPG on 20.2 FGA
In 2001 "MVP" Iverson scored 31.1 on 25.5 FGA


Okay, so what's the difference? 1.0 points on 5.3 more shots?

Well a generic bench scoring shot creator, let's call him Lou Williams, can score 1.287671232876712 points per shot.

So on those 5.3 more shots, take them out of Steph's hands and you have 6.8 points.

So
Steph + Lou Williams on 25.5 FGA = 36.9 points
AI on 25.5 FGA - 31.1 points.

Value-added of an actual generational player plus a generic bench scorer = 5.8 points on the same number of shots over Iverson. That is GENERATIONAL. It's the difference between a team averaging a 103 and 97 points on the same number of shots. No, shots aren't possessions, and AI's bricks did lead to rebounds for his teammates. But you can't assume Lou William's bricks didn't lead to rebounds for his teammates, either.

None of this analysis even begins to account for the difference between a true Point Guard (Curry) and an undersized SG who can't run plays and read the defense for the best option.

In truth, Iverson's era did have some generational players. Tim Duncan and Shaq are the two that immediately come to mind, and maybe Garnett. But despite winning an MVP Iverson was a tier below peers like McGrady, Kidd, Kobe, Webber, and Carter, all of whom were easily a tier below generational.

Comparing Rudy Gay and Allen Iverson is one of the biggest insults I've ever seen..

AI is better than Rudy Gay, just as Lebron is better than Russell Westbrook. But AI is to Westbrook what Rudy Gay is to Lebron. Completely different tiers of players.