10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series

[LastNameEver]

He was a top-10 player in TS% and a top-15 player in VORP (this is a cumulative stat which would also likely be in the top-10 if not for his missed games) this season. These are facts, whether you like them or not.

There is a huge market for players that can give you that kind of production.

At 20m-25m sure, but not at 30m+ there isn't... As I said, start naming teams and I'll gladly start explaining why they are not an option. Just saying there is a huge market doesn't make it so... How's the market for a 32 year old Melo who has proven he can't win either, and he only has two years at 27m a piece left?

We can play statistical confirmation bias games all we want, at the end of the day, playoff performances count and Lowry is one of the worst of All-Time (something your Vorp stat doesn't take into consideration)... Every player in the world knows you make your money in the playoffs, ask Biz... Still, telling me a player would have been Top 15 in a category if hadn't broke down yet again, doesn't really help your argument for rationalizing why he is worth an elite salary in the league.

He was top-15 despite his injury. Would have likely been top-10 if healthy the entire way through. That's a testament to his ridiculous production this year (this was arguably the best season of his career; he's actually been getting better with age).

A lot of wishful thinking, as your username suggests (classic meme)

But the playoff caliber teams that will need him down the road will not have the room to bring him on without disrupting what they got going. Nor will they want to do it in the first place. They also can't trade scraps/spare parts for a supermax player.

There will be 2 very short windows to trade Lowry.

1)Early into his contract, while hes producing.

2)When his contract is expiring.

[XxIronChainzxX]

It's way easier to change the coach than to blow up the core.

Sure re-signing Lowry and Ibaka carries some risk (what if a new coach doesn't actually fix things?). But they should still be tradable assets on their new contracts as they are talented individual players.

Would Lowry really be a tradeable asset if we give him a max contract though? 32 years old going into next season, with a history of injuries and a poor playoff performance record. And it's not like his reputation as a teammate/leader is great either. Given the depth at the PG position across the NBA, I'm not sure teams would be lining up to take Lowry and his contract off our hands if we want to blow it up next year or even in 2019 (when Lowry is 33).

He was a top-10 player this season. He'd push a lot of teams over the top (Houston, SAS, NOP).

Sure he's 32, but teams that want to win now don't care about the tail end of his contract.

I think you're underrating how much damage Lowry has done to his career through persistent playoff woes. The awful shooting from him and DD - which is now all-time worst for non-scrubs with real postseason minutes - is really damaging to a brand. Look at Sac trying to trade Cousins. Divac is an idiot who got fleeced, but real value apparently wasn't really there because of reputation.

[LonZoBallin]

Would Lowry really be a tradeable asset if we give him a max contract though? 32 years old going into next season, with a history of injuries and a poor playoff performance record. And it's not like his reputation as a teammate/leader is great either. Given the depth at the PG position across the NBA, I'm not sure teams would be lining up to take Lowry and his contract off our hands if we want to blow it up next year or even in 2019 (when Lowry is 33).

He was a top-10 player this season. He'd push a lot of teams over the top (Houston, SAS, NOP).

Sure he's 32, but teams that want to win now don't care about the tail end of his contract.

I think you're underrating how much damage Lowry has done to his career through persistent playoff woes. The awful shooting from him and DD - which is now all-time worst for non-scrubs with real postseason minutes - is really damaging to a brand. Look at Sac trying to trade Cousins. Divac is an idiot who got fleeced, but real value apparently wasn't really there because of reputation.

def not a tradeable asset. Because you're only going to trade him if you're losing. no one will want an old PG past his prime with 5 years left making over 30 million on a bad team. And you're gonna have to take back 30 million in contracts. They will be horrible contracts if you want your picks and prospects u get back to be any good.

[Too Late Crew]

I'm fine with getting rid of Casey. I do not think he is the devil who causes us to lose playoff games like his haters do. He's just like 95% of other NBA coaches who gets abiut the result the talent dictates (give or take). Chances are changing him for another coach won't make things better or worse in the big scheme of things. But it's an easy fix for fans who want change, won't hurt anything and will give fans a new scapegoat.
Lowry needs to go. Giving him the super max would be crippling.
I see a lot of argument that his playoff performance isn't representative of who he is because he's coming off an injury. Well Wes been coming off or in the midst of an injury every year for the last 3. See a pattern yet? He's a 31 year old PG who is proven to be injury prone,get out of shape and has **** the bed in 3 straight playoffs. Is it logical to think that at 32 he will become less injury prone and become a clutch playoff performer? Of course not. Supermax deals can also have big luxury tax consequences. Anyone who thinks we can just trade him for assets if it doesn't work out is kidding themselves.

You simply can't win a championship with this core. It's already at or past its peak. There is no upcoming star on this team that will suddenly improve and put them over the top. It's all downhill from here if the Lowry Demar eara continues.

[Boogie!]

only way you want to keep this core together is if you're an irrational fanboy or if you care about regular season wins and continuous first round exits year after year. if that's your goal and you dont actually want to see the raptors become a legitimate contender then keep the core together.

as a fan, i dont see the logic in this... what do YOU get out of it? all youre doing is making MLSE money, because theyre gonna keep selling out, selling tickets every year, just by putting out a passable product... toronto is so starved for "playoffs" that they're so blinded by the delusion of this false hope.

don't get me wrong, i love playoff basketball... in 2014 when they made it after all those years, it was exciting because we havent been there in a while... even when we knew they werent contenders...

but this cant keep happening year after year... at some point, they need to take that next step... this core just isnt doing it... the system will never change with these guys here, and every year the same core and the same system shows why it will never be a championship contender... it would be stupid to keep it together for the sake of 1st round exits... any rational gm that gave a **** about winning a championship would understand that at this point, its time for a change... lowry is 30, and has been the reason why weve been so successful these past few years... once he declines, demar is not ever gonna be good enough to lead this team anywhere... this has been his best season to date and look at how terribly he gets shut down in the playoffs still... theres no where else this core can do. its been fun watching them play, but theyre not ever gonna get better than this... this is possibly the best raptors team assembled in terms of overall talent... we have a lot of depth and talent and somehow we still cant execute... that falls ALL on the core players and the coaching and the system... thats their fault... its over. something has to change starting next season.

[Borgov]

People thinking removing Casey is the solution are naive. Getting rid of one problem might sprout another because getting the players to get used to a new coach and his schemes takes time. Masai better get an established coach with years of experience and a winning background or else why bother?

[GeordieRaptor]

i want to see what this team can do with a coach who plays team basketball.

[RIP Kobe]

players play the game, therefore they're partially at fault.

but casey doesn't play the players that may have an impact on the game, and doesn't bench players for playing like crap.

therefore this is on casey. players are gonna have good/bad games and it's up to the coach to make those adjustments in game/before the game (with starters) etc.

also, stop tinkering with rotations in the playoffs when they worked FINE in the regular season.

[team edward]

i want to see what this team can do with a coach who plays team basketball.

Player coaches aren't the answer, it's hard to whiteboard a play when you're all sweaty.

[JYD]

Some players gotta go, like Carroll, JV and likely Joseph.

But you don't need to blow it all up. Get Ettore Messina in here, a guy who can gameplan to break a trap and have a defensive system where we don't double scrubs.

[GeordieRaptor]

i want to see what this team can do with a coach who plays team basketball.

Player coaches aren't the answer, it's hard to whiteboard a play when you're all sweaty.

Cant be any worse than the coach we have atm. Im up for Tucker being player coach.

[Raps in 4]

At 20m-25m sure, but not at 30m+ there isn't... As I said, start naming teams and I'll gladly start explaining why they are not an option. Just saying there is a huge market doesn't make it so... How's the market for a 32 year old Melo who has proven he can't win either, and he only has two years at 27m a piece left?

We can play statistical confirmation bias games all we want, at the end of the day, playoff performances count and Lowry is one of the worst of All-Time (something your Vorp stat doesn't take into consideration)... Every player in the world knows you make your money in the playoffs, ask Biz... Still, telling me a player would have been Top 15 in a category if hadn't broke down yet again, doesn't really help your argument for rationalizing why he is worth an elite salary in the league.

He was top-15 despite his injury. Would have likely been top-10 if healthy the entire way through. That's a testament to his ridiculous production this year (this was arguably the best season of his career; he's actually been getting better with age).

Clearly, your argument hinges on this one REGULAR SEASON statistic... Fine... No, he would not have climbed any higher... C.Paul and K.Durant both missed 20 games a piece just like Lowry... Jokic missed 10 games (and is only 22 yrs old), and Cousins missed 10 games as well while also being traded...

Just some reference material on your VORP stat... You want to know who was Top 5 in VORP a mere 3yrs ago? J.Noah... How would you like to trade for his 18m per year for the next 3 years... Al Horford was Top 15 in VORP last year, not this year... How much do you think Boston could get for his 28m per year?

Here's another way at looking at your Top 20 VORP list... Name me more than 3 players you wouldn't rather have than Lowry on that list... Also please note that outside of James, Curry, Paul, and Durant every player on that list is younger than Kyle and will make less money than the type of salary that you are advocating will still hold trade value in the league... As I have been saying Lowry at 4 years or less and under 25m, absolutely still holds value... But no way in hell does Lowry at 30m+ have any value.

He was also top-10 in TS% (arguably the most important offensive stat) among high usage players.

If he's top-10 in shooting and top-15 in win shares (even with a prolonged injury), then he is an elite player. I don't get what you are arguing. His production is elite. Age doesn't matter. If he can produce at this level for the next 2-3 years, he will be worth the money he is going to get, even if he starts declining at the tail end of the contract (a player declining from an elite level of production is still going to be a "good" player).

[Skeezo]

He was top-15 despite his injury. Would have likely been top-10 if healthy the entire way through. That's a testament to his ridiculous production this year (this was arguably the best season of his career; he's actually been getting better with age).

Clearly, your argument hinges on this one REGULAR SEASON statistic... Fine... No, he would not have climbed any higher... C.Paul and K.Durant both missed 20 games a piece just like Lowry... Jokic missed 10 games (and is only 22 yrs old), and Cousins missed 10 games as well while also being traded...

Just some reference material on your VORP stat... You want to know who was Top 5 in VORP a mere 3yrs ago? J.Noah... How would you like to trade for his 18m per year for the next 3 years... Al Horford was Top 15 in VORP last year, not this year... How much do you think Boston could get for his 28m per year?

Here's another way at looking at your Top 20 VORP list... Name me more than 3 players you wouldn't rather have than Lowry on that list... Also please note that outside of James, Curry, Paul, and Durant every player on that list is younger than Kyle and will make less money than the type of salary that you are advocating will still hold trade value in the league... As I have been saying Lowry at 4 years or less and under 25m, absolutely still holds value... But no way in hell does Lowry at 30m+ have any value.

He was also top-10 in TS% (arguably the most important offensive stat) among high usage players.

If he's top-10 in shooting and top-15 in win shares (even with a prolonged injury), then he is an elite player. I don't get what you are arguing. His production is elite. Age doesn't matter. If he can produce at this level for the next 2-3 years, he will be worth his contract, even if he starts declining on the tail end (he will still be effective).

It's not that you don't get what that I'm arguing, it's that you ignore anything that doesn't confirm what your stats are telling you... The fact that that you think age, playoff performance, health history or attitude does not come into the equation on someone's decision to invest/trade for someone making 150m dollars or more over multiple seasons illustrates non-sensical thinking...

How many questions have I asked to which you have answered ZERO... I asked what teams would be willing to trade for a 30m-35m Kyle Lowry and what would they be willing to give up... Nothing... I asked you what the value of J.Noah is who was 5th on VORP only three years ago... Crickets... I asked how much could the Celtics get for A.Horford's 28m per who was in the Top 15 in VORP last year... I asked you to name more than 3 players on your Top 20 in VORP list that you wouldn't rather have other than Lowry, because it forces you to look at how much those guys get paid and their age in comparison... Instead, you swing it over to different stats like TS% and Win-Shares... Cool, you know who was top-10 in true-shooting last year? J.Valanciunas ... Kyle Lowry didn't even make Top 20 in TS% last year, so does that mean that JV was more elite than Kyle and should therefore, be paid more? I can play confirmation bias stat games too... In addition, please recognize all your stats are offensively subjective. There are two-ends to the basketball floor and Lowry is by no means a defensive-stopper.

I don't understand why you have such a hard-on to pay Lowry 30m+ or more... I haven't said to not make an offer to Lowry, I'm merely pointing out in a supply/demand market where the league is flush with PG talent, it's horrible decision to allocate so much money to a player that is not elite... We have played in 6 playoff series now and each time Lowry was not considered the best player on the floor. You don't pay elite-level salary when that is happening over and over again.... Again, Lowry between 20m-25m is reasonable and will remain tradeable, more than that.... Forgetaboutit!

[Randle McMurphy]

Why are some so woefully attached to being a treadmill team?

Legend...

The age old RealGM debate never really ends, it just evolves.

[KrazyP]

Why are some so woefully attached to being a treadmill team?

Legend...

The age old RealGM debate never really ends, it just evolves.

TWO is getting ready to start World War II on this board.

[Double Helix]

Legend...

The age old RealGM debate never really ends, it just evolves.

TWO is getting ready to start World War II on this board.

Imagine how close we'd be to contending right now if we had blown this core up prior to last year's run, finished with a high lotto pick, and picked up 1 of these future hall of fame talents from these generational drafts:

Anthony Bennett - Bust
Cody Zeller - Role player
Alex Len - Role player
Dante Exum - Bust
Marcus Smart - Role player
Jahil Okafor - Nobody wants him
Jabari Parker - Multiple knee injuries - All offence and no D tweener. A rich man's Thobias Harris
Julius Randle - Poor man's Zbo
Aaron Gordon - More athletic Faried
D'Angelo Russell - .518 TS%
Mario Hezonja - Bust
Emmanuel Mudiay - .483 TS%

3 tank years and you could have potentially had 3 of those studs to rise up with and win titles.

/green

It's not always the very best of the lotto that teams end up with.

Even good draft evaluators take some of these guys after brutal tank years and then some other teams who retooled end up picking later and end up with Devin Booker, Giannis, Myles Turner, etc



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[KrazyP]

The age old RealGM debate never really ends, it just evolves.

TWO is getting ready to start World War II on this board.

Imagine how close we'd be to contending right now if we had blown this core up prior to last year's run, finished with a high lotto pick, and picked up 1 of these future hall of fame talents from these generational drafts:

Anthony Bennett - Bust
Cody Zeller - Role player
Alex Len - Role player
Dante Exum - Bust
Marcus Smart - Role player
Jahil Okafor - Nobody wants him
Jabari Parker - Multiple knee injuries - All offence and no D tweener. A rich man's Thobias Harris
Julius Randle - Poor man's Zbo
Aaron Gordon - More athletic Faried
D'Angelo Russell - .518 TS%
Mario Hezonja - Bust
Emmanuel Mudiay - .483 TS%

3 tank years and you could have potentially had 3 of those studs to rise up with and win titles.

/green

It's not always the very best of the lotto that teams end up with.

Even good draft evaluators take some of these guys after brutal tank years and then some other teams who retooled end up picking later and end up with Devin Booker, Giannis, Myles Turner, etc



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Its unfortunate that the point you make often goes over the heads of many people on this board. Food for thought.....the Bucks are considered a young upcoming team. Their foundation consists of 2 guys (Giannis/Middleton) picked in the middle of the first round.

There is a time and place to rebuild. I dont think the Raptors are there yet. That said, if the Raps are going to take another step, Ujiri will have to hit a homerun or two with his draft picks.

[Double Helix]

The Ibaka, Lowry and Derozan trio is starting to click now that they've had more time together.


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[Randle McMurphy]

The Ibaka, Lowry and Derozan trio is starting to click now that they've had more time together.


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Clicking so well that they're struggling against a bad Milwaukee Bucks team before getting run over by LeBron James for the second year in a row. Future is bright, though.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

The Ibaka, Lowry and Derozan trio is starting to click now that they've had more time together.


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Clicking so well that they're struggling against a bad Milwaukee Bucks team before getting run over by LeBron James for the second year in a row. Future is bright, though.

Clicking in only playing 9 total games together......

Within those 9 games (5 of them being playoff games) it's become apparent that there are certain role players that need to go and different skillset role players that need to come in to better compliment the core and strengthen the weaknesses of the team.

IMO, this summer will be the time where Masai will not have time to evaluate any further with a locked in core in their prime. It will be time to make the final moves of his all in. If it turns into more of the same as what we see now, then I'll agree with you that it will be time to move on, however I think the core of Lowry/DD/Ibaka with a strong supporting cast that compliments their skillset can compete at the highest level and does give the Raps as good of a chance as they've ever had by a wide margin.