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10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series

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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#81 » by JaysRule15 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:09 am

Raps in 4 wrote:It's way easier to change the coach than to blow up the core.

Sure re-signing Lowry and Ibaka carries some risk (what if a new coach doesn't actually fix things?). But they should still be tradable assets on their new contracts as they are talented individual players.


Would Lowry really be a tradeable asset if we give him a max contract though? 32 years old going into next season, with a history of injuries and a poor playoff performance record. And it's not like his reputation as a teammate/leader is great either. Given the depth at the PG position across the NBA, I'm not sure teams would be lining up to take Lowry and his contract off our hands if we want to blow it up next year or even in 2019 (when Lowry is 33).
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#82 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:31 am

JaysRule15 wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:It's way easier to change the coach than to blow up the core.

Sure re-signing Lowry and Ibaka carries some risk (what if a new coach doesn't actually fix things?). But they should still be tradable assets on their new contracts as they are talented individual players.


Would Lowry really be a tradeable asset if we give him a max contract though? 32 years old going into next season, with a history of injuries and a poor playoff performance record. And it's not like his reputation as a teammate/leader is great either. Given the depth at the PG position across the NBA, I'm not sure teams would be lining up to take Lowry and his contract off our hands if we want to blow it up next year or even in 2019 (when Lowry is 33).

He was a top-10 player this season. He'd push a lot of teams over the top (Houston, SAS, NOP).

Sure he's 32, but teams that want to win now don't care about the tail end of his contract.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#83 » by LJKO » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:50 am

CDN Uprising wrote:All in for keeping this core and hiring a new coach

I understand people being sick of Lowry and Demar core and even with a New coach it wont change how they choke the playoffs but people gotta think this through without Lowry and Demar we're going back to the Dark Era or even worst; Forget about getting a franchise player to become a Superstar we won't even have a All-Stars. Our Raptors team won't be good enough to make it to the playoff or even too sh!!!!!t to tank for a top 10 lotto hovering that 9th-11th seed. People keep complaining they are sick of this Lowry and Demar core they can't carry this team in the playoffs; tell me this what is this Lowry and Demar core you all referring to? Do we even have a core to begin with because I actually really don't see it :roll:
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#84 » by mattkobe1984 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:53 am

Stackhouse era should begin, I trust Masai they trade can tweak us to be good. Losing every game like the nets sucks ass
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#85 » by Skeezo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:08 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
JaysRule15 wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:It's way easier to change the coach than to blow up the core.

Sure re-signing Lowry and Ibaka carries some risk (what if a new coach doesn't actually fix things?). But they should still be tradable assets on their new contracts as they are talented individual players.


Would Lowry really be a tradeable asset if we give him a max contract though? 32 years old going into next season, with a history of injuries and a poor playoff performance record. And it's not like his reputation as a teammate/leader is great either. Given the depth at the PG position across the NBA, I'm not sure teams would be lining up to take Lowry and his contract off our hands if we want to blow it up next year or even in 2019 (when Lowry is 33).

He was a top-10 player this season. He'd push a lot of teams over the top (Houston, SAS, NOP).

Sure he's 32, but teams that want to win now don't care about the tail end of his contract.


Lowry is not a Top 10 player, he's barely a Top 10 point guard... See the guy on the Bucks that we can't stop, that's a Top 10 player... Anything over 25m at more than fours years for Lowry is negative value before the ink even dries.
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#86 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:12 am

Skeezo wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
JaysRule15 wrote:
Would Lowry really be a tradeable asset if we give him a max contract though? 32 years old going into next season, with a history of injuries and a poor playoff performance record. And it's not like his reputation as a teammate/leader is great either. Given the depth at the PG position across the NBA, I'm not sure teams would be lining up to take Lowry and his contract off our hands if we want to blow it up next year or even in 2019 (when Lowry is 33).

He was a top-10 player this season. He'd push a lot of teams over the top (Houston, SAS, NOP).

Sure he's 32, but teams that want to win now don't care about the tail end of his contract.


Lowry is not a Top 10 player, he's barely a Top 10 point guard... See the guy on the Bucks that we can't stop, that's a Top 10 player... Anything over 25m at more than fours years for Lowry is negative value before the ink even dries.


Whether you want to admit it or not doesn't matter. The fact remains that he is one of the best players in the NBA.

Yes, he routinely **** the bed in the playoffs, but that's largely irrelevant when talking trade value. Plenty of teams would take him on in the hopes that they can turn his playoff performance around with a different system.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#87 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:15 am

LJKO wrote:
CDN Uprising wrote:All in for keeping this core and hiring a new coach

I understand people being sick of Lowry and Demar core and even with a New coach it wont change how they choke the playoffs


Plenty of teams have transformed their fortunes with a coaching change (GSW and Houston are the two most recent examples).
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#88 » by RaptorsLife » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:18 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
LJKO wrote:
CDN Uprising wrote:All in for keeping this core and hiring a new coach

I understand people being sick of Lowry and Demar core and even with a New coach it wont change how they choke the playoffs


Plenty of teams have transformed their fortunes with a coaching change (GSW and Houston are the two most recent examples).

But Steph curry and klay Thompson and James harden proved they can be productive even with a bad coach in the playoffs

Lowry and derozan still haven't shot over 40% in the playoffs let alone play good lol
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#89 » by Skeezo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:32 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Skeezo wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:He was a top-10 player this season. He'd push a lot of teams over the top (Houston, SAS, NOP).

Sure he's 32, but teams that want to win now don't care about the tail end of his contract.


Lowry is not a Top 10 player, he's barely a Top 10 point guard... See the guy on the Bucks that we can't stop, that's a Top 10 player... Anything over 25m at more than fours years for Lowry is negative value before the ink even dries.


Whether you want to admit it or not doesn't matter. The fact remains that he is one of the best players in the NBA.

Yes, he routinely **** the bed in the playoffs, but that's largely irrelevant when talking trade value. Plenty of teams would take him on in the hopes that they can turn his playoff woes around in a different system.


I'll admit Lowry is a Top 30 player that is on the wrong side of his thirties who as you said cannot perform in the playoffs... In four years he has never been considered the best player on the floor in the post season. In the history of the NBA only 15 players have ever received a 35% max. Whether you want to believe it or not, the facts suggest there would not be any teams that would be willing to give anything of value for a 35m dollar Lowry... Please start naming some teams...

You said Houston and SAS already... First, neither team has 35m in cap space to sign him... In other words a trade where salary matching needs to take place. So who on Hou/SAS roster totalling 30m-35m can they give up to get Lowry without creating huge holes in other areas? Not to mention, HOU/SAS already have Harden and Parker/Mills... NOP is in same boat with no space or decent assets other than core pieces they won't trade. Moreover, they already control Holiday's bird rights at PG ...

Who's next the Sixers, Sacramento? Sixers are either going to play Simmons at the point or draft their PG with one of the top guys in this draft... Same can be said for the Kings and what assets would we want from them anyways... There is zero market for Lowry at 35% max when has proven time and again he can't put a team on his back in the playoffs.

Westbrook
Curry
Paul
Harden
Wall
Lillard
Thomas
Walker
Conley
Irving

All PG who had better Win-Share/Per numbers than Lowry, and outside of I.Thomas I would gladly take in front of.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#90 » by LJKO » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:39 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
LJKO wrote:
CDN Uprising wrote:All in for keeping this core and hiring a new coach

I understand people being sick of Lowry and Demar core and even with a New coach it wont change how they choke the playoffs


Plenty of teams have transformed their fortunes with a coaching change (GSW and Houston are the two most recent examples).

Lowry and Demar doesn't need to change nor should they change how they play under a new coach; we have the culture but what need is a style of basketball built to complement Lowry and Demar and to build that we need new coach to implement a system. Brainless f@ks that likes to only complain and whine about our core doesn't understand jack and no matter how much time we explain it to them they won't listen because they are stubborn just like that clown coach of ours
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#91 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:42 am

Skeezo wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Skeezo wrote:
Lowry is not a Top 10 player, he's barely a Top 10 point guard... See the guy on the Bucks that we can't stop, that's a Top 10 player... Anything over 25m at more than fours years for Lowry is negative value before the ink even dries.


Whether you want to admit it or not doesn't matter. The fact remains that he is one of the best players in the NBA.

Yes, he routinely **** the bed in the playoffs, but that's largely irrelevant when talking trade value. Plenty of teams would take him on in the hopes that they can turn his playoff woes around in a different system.


I'll admit Lowry is a Top 30 player that is on the wrong side of his thirties who as you said cannot perform in the playoffs... In four years he has never been considered the best player on the floor in the post season. In the history of the NBA only 15 players have ever received a 35% max. Whether you want to believe it or not, the facts suggest there would not be any teams that would be willing to give anything of value for a 35m dollar Lowry... Please start naming some teams...

You said Houston and SAS already... First, neither team has 35m in cap space to sign him... In other words a trade where salary matching needs to take place. So who on Hou/SAS roster totalling 30m-35m can they give up to get Lowry without creating huge holes in other areas? Not to mention, HOU/SAS already have Harden and Parker/Mills... NOP is in same boat with no space or decent assets other core pieces they won't trade and they already have Holiday in the fold...

Who's next the Sixers, Sacramento? Sixers are either going to play Simmons at the point or draft their PG with one of the top guys in this draft... Same can be said for the Kings and what assets would we want from them anyways... There is zero market for Lowry at 35% max when has proven time and again he can't put a team on his back in the playoffs.


He was a top-10 player in TS% and a top-15 player in VORP (this is a cumulative stat which would also likely be in the top-10 if not for his missed games) this season. These are facts, whether you like them or not.

There is a huge market for players that can give you that kind of production.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#92 » by yodude » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:46 am

LJKO wrote:
CDN Uprising wrote:All in for keeping this core and hiring a new coach

I understand people being sick of Lowry and Demar core and even with a New coach it wont change how they choke the playoffs but people gotta think this through without Lowry and Demar we're going back to the Dark Era or even worst; Forget about getting a franchise player to become a Superstar we won't even have a All-Stars. Our Raptors team won't be good enough to make it to the playoff or even too sh!!!!!t to tank for a top 10 lotto hovering that 9th-11th seed. People keep complaining they are sick of this Lowry and Demar core they can't carry this team in the playoffs; tell me this what is this Lowry and Demar core you all referring to? Do we even have a core to begin with because I actually really don't see it :roll:


I agree with your post to some extent. I agree with the fact that watching a tank will kill our souls, but that's not entirely true. The way I see it, as of right now, I rather watch a team of young players that are playing well within a good offensive system, knowing that one day, these guys can become great NBA players for our team. On the other hand, I do not want to watch a team where I know they are potentially a maxed out roster where we are stuck in a playoff treadmill hell, where we are good enough to make the playoffs, but we can barely pass the first round .Honestly, the only reason I believe the first option is better for the team and the fans is cause of Masai. I know he hasn't done much as the GM, but from looking at the moves he made for the past 3-4 years, we can all agree he is an asset collector. The only reason the 'Dark Era' existed was cause BC always wanted to win now, and his asset management was terrible. The only Ray of Hope we had was hoping guys like DeMar and JV would pan out to be some sort of star or fringe all star at least. After getting JV and Ross, BC was immediately in win now mode, getting Lowry and Rudy, and that disrupted our asset Management cause we lost a pick (where we most likely would've gotten Giannis) cause of the Lowry trade. Not saying the trade wasn't good, because it benefitted us for 4 years, but I just to get out the fact that this 'new' dark era isn't going to be the same we are used to before because Masai is such a gold digger for assets. I'm sure it's going to be rough to watch for the first year or two, but it will also be satisfying to see our young ones improve as each day moves forward. Especially with the right coach, who is a mastermind of the X&Os, aka, Brad Stevens 2.0. Look at teams like Minny and Philly. As much as they are losing right now, they are some of the most exciting teams to watch just cause the amount of young talent and promise they have. With Masai, maybe that can happen to us one day once we are all passed the Casey/DeMar/Lowry era.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#93 » by RaptorsLife » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:47 am

The
2014 and 2015 rosters compared to the 2016 and 2017 rosters are crazy

The only players who constant are

Derozan
Lowry
Val
Patterson
Bruno

We already retooled in 2015 off-season.


You keep building a modern roster team in 2017 around a player who can't shoot 3s, doesn't play defense and holds the ball too long. Your gonna keep going in circles.

Demar is basically the new Carmelo without the 3 ball

Lowry is 31 year old. It's time to get some fresh faces.

I don't care about tanking. If our young guys lead us to the playoffs in the first year then awesome. I love the playoffs. But I seen enough of these "stars"
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#94 » by Skeezo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:52 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
LJKO wrote:
CDN Uprising wrote:All in for keeping this core and hiring a new coach

I understand people being sick of Lowry and Demar core and even with a New coach it wont change how they choke the playoffs


Plenty of teams have transformed their fortunes with a coaching change (GSW and Houston are the two most recent examples).


Houston also removed Psuedo-Superstar D.Howard and replaced him with no-one... GSW is an unfair example, Mark Jackson took the team from 23 wins to 51 wins in two years and they cut him loose. Jackson firing was more about his relationship with Myers rather than performance coaching.
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#95 » by Skeezo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:58 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Skeezo wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Whether you want to admit it or not doesn't matter. The fact remains that he is one of the best players in the NBA.

Yes, he routinely **** the bed in the playoffs, but that's largely irrelevant when talking trade value. Plenty of teams would take him on in the hopes that they can turn his playoff woes around in a different system.


I'll admit Lowry is a Top 30 player that is on the wrong side of his thirties who as you said cannot perform in the playoffs... In four years he has never been considered the best player on the floor in the post season. In the history of the NBA only 15 players have ever received a 35% max. Whether you want to believe it or not, the facts suggest there would not be any teams that would be willing to give anything of value for a 35m dollar Lowry... Please start naming some teams...

You said Houston and SAS already... First, neither team has 35m in cap space to sign him... In other words a trade where salary matching needs to take place. So who on Hou/SAS roster totalling 30m-35m can they give up to get Lowry without creating huge holes in other areas? Not to mention, HOU/SAS already have Harden and Parker/Mills... NOP is in same boat with no space or decent assets other core pieces they won't trade and they already have Holiday in the fold...

Who's next the Sixers, Sacramento? Sixers are either going to play Simmons at the point or draft their PG with one of the top guys in this draft... Same can be said for the Kings and what assets would we want from them anyways... There is zero market for Lowry at 35% max when has proven time and again he can't put a team on his back in the playoffs.


He was a top-10 player in TS% and a top-15 player in VORP (this is a cumulative stat which would also likely be in the top-10 if not for his missed games) this season. These are facts, whether you like them or not.

There is a huge market for players that can give you that kind of production.


At 20m-25m sure, but not at 30m+ there isn't... As I said, start naming teams and I'll gladly start explaining why they are not an option. Just saying there is a huge market doesn't make it so... How's the market for a 32 year old Melo who has proven he can't win either, and he only has two years at 27m a piece left?

We can play statistical confirmation bias games all we want, at the end of the day, playoff performances count and Lowry is one of the worst of All-Time (something your Vorp stat doesn't take into consideration)... Every player in the world knows you make your money in the playoffs, ask Biz... Still, telling me a player would have been Top 15 in a category if hadn't broke down yet again, doesn't really help your argument for rationalizing why he is worth an elite salary in the league.
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#96 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:14 am

Skeezo wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Skeezo wrote:
I'll admit Lowry is a Top 30 player that is on the wrong side of his thirties who as you said cannot perform in the playoffs... In four years he has never been considered the best player on the floor in the post season. In the history of the NBA only 15 players have ever received a 35% max. Whether you want to believe it or not, the facts suggest there would not be any teams that would be willing to give anything of value for a 35m dollar Lowry... Please start naming some teams...

You said Houston and SAS already... First, neither team has 35m in cap space to sign him... In other words a trade where salary matching needs to take place. So who on Hou/SAS roster totalling 30m-35m can they give up to get Lowry without creating huge holes in other areas? Not to mention, HOU/SAS already have Harden and Parker/Mills... NOP is in same boat with no space or decent assets other core pieces they won't trade and they already have Holiday in the fold...

Who's next the Sixers, Sacramento? Sixers are either going to play Simmons at the point or draft their PG with one of the top guys in this draft... Same can be said for the Kings and what assets would we want from them anyways... There is zero market for Lowry at 35% max when has proven time and again he can't put a team on his back in the playoffs.


He was a top-10 player in TS% and a top-15 player in VORP (this is a cumulative stat which would also likely be in the top-10 if not for his missed games) this season. These are facts, whether you like them or not.

There is a huge market for players that can give you that kind of production.


At 20m-25m sure, but not at 30m+ there isn't... As I said, start naming teams and I'll gladly start explaining why they are not an option. Just saying there is a huge market doesn't make it so... How's the market for a 32 year old Melo who has proven he can't win either, and he only has two years at 27m a piece left?

We can play statistical confirmation bias games all we want, at the end of the day, playoff performances count and Lowry is one of the worst of All-Time (something your Vorp stat doesn't take into consideration)... Every player in the world knows you make your money in the playoffs, ask Biz... Still, telling me a player would have been Top 15 in a category if hadn't broke down yet again, doesn't really help your argument for rationalizing why he is worth an elite salary in the league.


He was top-15 despite his injury. Would have likely been top-10 if healthy the entire way through. That's a testament to his ridiculous production this year (this was arguably the best season of his career; he's actually been getting better with age).
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#97 » by JaysRule15 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:35 am

Lowry had a great regular season and I agree with Raps In 4 that he was a Top 15 player in the league this season (if not Top 10). However, I still think his negative aspects (age, injury history, playoff performance, chemistry issue with coaches) would make a lot of teams think twice before taking on a $175+ million contract where Lowry is getting $35+ million per season.

And another thing that concerns me, wrist injuries are the most serious type of injuries that a player whose bread and butter move is his three point shot could have. Lowry is coming off surgery and we still haven't seen him recover that pre-injury shot. The hope is that with enough games played, he'll get back to that level. But what if he doesn't? We likely won't find out the answer until Lowry plays a bunch of games next season. So we'll have to pay him this offseason without knowing if his elite three-point shooting is still there.
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#98 » by Skeezo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:04 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Skeezo wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
He was a top-10 player in TS% and a top-15 player in VORP (this is a cumulative stat which would also likely be in the top-10 if not for his missed games) this season. These are facts, whether you like them or not.

There is a huge market for players that can give you that kind of production.


At 20m-25m sure, but not at 30m+ there isn't... As I said, start naming teams and I'll gladly start explaining why they are not an option. Just saying there is a huge market doesn't make it so... How's the market for a 32 year old Melo who has proven he can't win either, and he only has two years at 27m a piece left?

We can play statistical confirmation bias games all we want, at the end of the day, playoff performances count and Lowry is one of the worst of All-Time (something your Vorp stat doesn't take into consideration)... Every player in the world knows you make your money in the playoffs, ask Biz... Still, telling me a player would have been Top 15 in a category if hadn't broke down yet again, doesn't really help your argument for rationalizing why he is worth an elite salary in the league.


He was top-15 despite his injury. Would have likely been top-10 if healthy the entire way through. That's a testament to his ridiculous production this year (this was arguably the best season of his career; he's actually been getting better with age).


Clearly, your argument hinges on this one REGULAR SEASON statistic... Fine... No, he would not have climbed any higher... C.Paul and K.Durant both missed 20 games a piece just like Lowry... Jokic missed 10 games (and is only 22 yrs old), and Cousins missed 10 games as well while also being traded...

Just some reference material on your VORP stat... You want to know who was Top 5 in VORP a mere 3yrs ago? J.Noah... How would you like to trade for his 18m per year for the next 3 years... Al Horford was Top 15 in VORP last year, not this year... How much do you think Boston could get for his 28m per year?

Here's another way at looking at your Top 20 VORP list... Name me more than 3 players you wouldn't rather have than Lowry on that list... Also please note that outside of James, Curry, Paul, and Durant every player on that list is younger than Kyle and will make less money than the type of salary that you are advocating will still hold trade value in the league... As I have been saying Lowry at 4 years or less and under 25m, absolutely still holds value... But no way in hell does Lowry at 30m+ have any value.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#99 » by Zhilvis » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:37 am

Lets say to keep Lowry will cost around 30 M/y for another 4 years (keep in mind he is 31), to keep Ibaka will cost 20+ M/y. My thought is if the coach remains the same, keeping 3 players averaging 25 M/y is waste of money, because this team couldn't do anything more with its current playing stile and system. This team is coached to fail in playoff.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#100 » by OAKLEY_2 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:27 pm

Zhilvis wrote:Lets say to keep Lowry will cost around 30 M/y for another 4 years (keep in mind he is 31), to keep Ibaka will cost 20+ M/y. My thought is if the coach remains the same, keeping 3 players averaging 25 M/y is waste of money, because this team couldn't do anything more with its current playing stile and system. This team is coached to fail in playoff.


The only reason we didn't blow round one last year is because we adjusted to George with Norm and adjusted to Demar's game being taken away. JV played a big role in that once Vogel had to worry about him. JV this year has hugely regressed in the mopey head case department. He really is not an option for adjustments and the only way he survives as a Raptor is if and when Casey gets fired. I think this offseason if we bow out against Giannis we delete Casey and then it is anyone's guess who goes after that. If KL stays Joseph is history. If Ibaka signs JV is gone. If Tucker is signed then Carroll s/be playing mop up at power forward going small to burn another year off that contract.

Cannot see maxing KL if we lose this series even if we badly underestimate the Bucks success in the process. Hot teams beat teams that do not play as a unit but... you have to know did we hit a wall physically, reach a ceiling talent wise, confront a super hot team or just any combination of those realities as they continue to plan long term. It takes a riverboat gambler to go all in with so many issues and question marks.

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