Realistic Expectations for Jakob Poeltl, Pascal Siakam, and Delon Wright heading into 17-18

[I_Like_Dirt]

Yeah, Ross is better than Miles, honestly. That said, while he has different strengths and weaknesses which don't quite fit as well with Demar and Lowry, I feel that Powell is better than both Ross and Miles overall and playing him more should help. I also think that Wright is going to prove to be an upgrade over Joseph, which is saying something because Joseph is very good. Where I'm a little concerned is at the forward spots, which is where Miles is going to play most (all?) of his minutes. I'm not sure what Siakam and OG are going to be able to do this season, and I'm not convinced Bruno is ready to provide anything of significance (I'd love for him to prove me wrong, though). If Siakam and OG both step up, though, the bench could be really, really good.

[rapcity10]

Delon Wright could be Shawn Livingston defensively with MCW's first step. I won't be surprised if his impact in he league ends up being pretty close to Marcus Smart's. Despite the fact Smart was picked way earlier.

Think his impact could have been better than Smart, if he got more minutes and next year he will definitely he's more impactful that Marcus Smart.

You guys are out to lunch. Last year he was the backup point guard for 20+ games and he looked invisible in a handful of those games. For a 24 year old supposedly NBA ready point guard. Marcus smart is also exactly 2 years younger than him. Some of the homers on this board kill me. Marcus Smart is on another LEVEL compared to Delon Wright, you ask all 30 NBA general managers who would they rather have all 30 of them will laugh at you that your even asking that question. Delon Wright is going to struggle in some games so bad next year that Fred Van Vleet is going to be the backup for a period of time. Wrights a mediocore prospect until proven otherwise.

[Johnny Bball]

How in the world is miles way better than Ross?? Are people actually expecting this guy to change the outcome of this team for us? Look at his numbers in the playoffs, miles I'm talking about it, especially against us when he was with the pacers, he was terrible. He will not be shooting 41 percent from three next year that's first, he'll come back down to his norm average. Second he is purely a catch and shoot shooter, that is an adequate defender. He can't curl off screens, and create his own shot like Ross can. He can't get his shot off whenever he wants like he can, and he doesn't have the floor game he has. Stop this nonsense.

You have no idea what you're taking about here.

[bluerap23]

No one talking about FVV. I think he has real potential. he will be on the court with Delon when Kyle is resting.

[rapcity10]

How in the world is miles way better than Ross?? Are people actually expecting this guy to change the outcome of this team for us? Look at his numbers in the playoffs, miles I'm talking about it, especially against us when he was with the pacers, he was terrible. He will not be shooting 41 percent from three next year that's first, he'll come back down to his norm average. Second he is purely a catch and shoot shooter, that is an adequate defender. He can't curl off screens, and create his own shot like Ross can. He can't get his shot off whenever he wants like he can, and he doesn't have the floor game he has. Stop this nonsense.

You have no idea what you're taking about here.

Care to explain. Am I wrong in saying that miles is strictly a catch and shoot shooter that is a decent defender. While ross has way more creativity in his game, has a growing floor game, and can create his own whenever he wants and get it off whenever he wants compared to miles because he is a considerably better ball handler, and has more creativity in his game with his crossovers and go to moves. Not saying Ross is some go to player btw.

[ill-Will03]

How in the world is miles way better than Ross?? Are people actually expecting this guy to change the outcome of this team for us? Look at his numbers in the playoffs, miles I'm talking about it, especially against us when he was with the pacers, he was terrible. He will not be shooting 41 percent from three next year that's first, he'll come back down to his norm average. Second he is purely a catch and shoot shooter, that is an adequate defender. He can't curl off screens, and create his own shot like Ross can. He can't get his shot off whenever he wants like he can, and he doesn't have the floor game he has. Stop this nonsense.

You have no idea what you're taking about here.

Care to explain. Am I wrong in saying that miles is strictly a catch and shoot shooter that is a decent defender. While ross has way more creativity in his game, has a growing floor game, and can create his own whenever he wants and get it off whenever he wants compared to miles because he is a considerably better ball handler, and has more creativity in his game with his crossovers and go to moves. Not saying Ross is some go to player btw.

I don't think you can even mention floor game and Ross is the same sentence. All Ross ever did was shy away from contact and shoot the 3 ball, with some occasional dunks thrown in there. You cannot be more wrong about Miles not being able to come off screen to shoot. Watch some of his youtube highlights, there's many screen actions they run for him, curling off screens, off ball screen and curling for a short pull up or floater.

[TerryTate]

Delon Wright could be Shawn Livingston defensively with MCW's first step. I won't be surprised if his impact in he league ends up being pretty close to Marcus Smart's. Despite the fact Smart was picked way earlier.

Think his impact could have been better than Smart, if he got more minutes and next year he will definitely he's more impactful that Marcus Smart.

You guys are out to lunch. Last year he was the backup point guard for 20+ games and he looked invisible in a handful of those games. For a 24 year old supposedly NBA ready point guard. Marcus smart is also exactly 2 years younger than him. Some of the homers on this board kill me. Marcus Smart is on another LEVEL compared to Delon Wright, you ask all 30 NBA general managers who would they rather have all 30 of them will laugh at you that your even asking that question. Delon Wright is going to struggle in some games so bad next year that Fred Van Vleet is going to be the backup for a period of time. Wrights a mediocore prospect until proven otherwise.

Just watch.... Wright will be a huge impact for this team, especially on Defence. It doesn't matter much for his offence, he can grow into that role. He has a great eye for reading the offence. He will likely lead the team in steals next year, book it.

[whysoserious]

How in the world is miles way better than Ross?? Are people actually expecting this guy to change the outcome of this team for us? Look at his numbers in the playoffs, miles I'm talking about it, especially against us when he was with the pacers, he was terrible. He will not be shooting 41 percent from three next year that's first, he'll come back down to his norm average. Second he is purely a catch and shoot shooter, that is an adequate defender. He can't curl off screens, and create his own shot like Ross can. He can't get his shot off whenever he wants like he can, and he doesn't have the floor game he has. Stop this nonsense.

Ross was inconsistent for years, his play and production could never be relied upon and his effort was always lacking. Ross has skills, it's just that he never provided what his skills should allow him to provide on a consistent enough basis and that's where Miles will be an improvement for this teams bench.

[rapcity10]

Think his impact could have been better than Smart, if he got more minutes and next year he will definitely he's more impactful that Marcus Smart.

You guys are out to lunch. Last year he was the backup point guard for 20+ games and he looked invisible in a handful of those games. For a 24 year old supposedly NBA ready point guard. Marcus smart is also exactly 2 years younger than him. Some of the homers on this board kill me. Marcus Smart is on another LEVEL compared to Delon Wright, you ask all 30 NBA general managers who would they rather have all 30 of them will laugh at you that your even asking that question. Delon Wright is going to struggle in some games so bad next year that Fred Van Vleet is going to be the backup for a period of time. Wrights a mediocore prospect until proven otherwise.

Just watch.... Wright will be a huge impact for this team, especially on Defence. It doesn't matter much for his offence, he can grow into that role. He has a great eye for reading the offence. He will likely lead the team in steals next year, book it.

Not saying he won't, he is a good defender and can grow to become to a very good defender. But comparing him to Marcus smart????? Marcus smart is one of the most multidimensional defenders in the game. He's the guard version of PJ tucker on defence, and even then Brad Stevens has asked him to guard Kristap prozingis, Anthony Davis, even some big men for periods of stretches and he's held his own. That's a horrible comparison, I like the Livingston comparison with Delon wright.

[Double Helix]

Delon Wright could be Shawn Livingston defensively with MCW's first step. I won't be surprised if his impact in he league ends up being pretty close to Marcus Smart's. Despite the fact Smart was picked way earlier.

Think his impact could have been better than Smart, if he got more minutes and next year he will definitely he's more impactful that Marcus Smart.

You guys are out to lunch. Last year he was the backup point guard for 20+ games and he looked invisible in a handful of those games. For a 24 year old supposedly NBA ready point guard. Marcus smart is also exactly 2 years younger than him. Some of the homers on this board kill me. Marcus Smart is on another LEVEL compared to Delon Wright, you ask all 30 NBA general managers who would they rather have all 30 of them will laugh at you that your even asking that question. Delon Wright is going to struggle in some games so bad next year that Fred Van Vleet is going to be the backup for a period of time. Wrights a mediocore prospect until proven otherwise.

Marcus Smart has had nearly 6000 NBA minutes. He's also 23. Based on that age and those minutes some conclusions can be drawn. His career FG% over that span? A pathetic .358. His 3 point percentage over that span? 29%. He has a true shooting percentage of .480 through 3 seasons and a massive sample size of opportunity. That's downright horrible in a league where starting caliber PGs are expected to not only make their teammates better but also become volume scorers themselves on elite efficiency.

Both are shaping up to be big defensive backup PGs at this point in time. Note the comparison here over 36 minutes and you'll quickly see why the comparison isn't anywhere near as crazy as you suggest. They're also separated by only 9 spots in RPM.

Smart has been handed the reigns more because of where he was drafted but the growth hasn't been there to really indicate that it's actually going to come. For as often as you criticize Raptors for failing to develop you should have a look at where Smart has plateaued. This could very well be who he is and if he doesn't have significant growth left in him then his per minute contributions are going to seem close enough to what Delon Wright brings long-term.

Smart's rookie year coincided with the arrival of I.T. who is among the worst defensive players in all of basketball. As one might expect, these 2 variables being introduced at once made it harder to determine mathematically if Smart was truly a defensive game-changer, or merely a very solid big PG who just looked elite defensively because Isaiah Thomas is that poor a defender on/off. As more data became available between both within Boston over the next 2 seasons the math has more and more pointed to Smart simply being among the best defensive PGs in the sport to being pretty solid. He's slid as more data has become available on him, not climbed up. In fact, Delon Wright last year ranked higher on the defensive side in RPM than Smart last year and that's with him coming on when Lowry or Cory are off. So, even Smart's calling card... and the thing that's supposed to make him special might not be notably better than Wright's. Remember, Delon Wright was lauded for defensive upside as a prospect too. Draft steals happen in basketball and the difference in quality between Wright and Smart may be remote despite the gap in where they were taken.

So, unless Smart actually makes use of the 2 year gap in a substantial way... they're both shaping up like big defensive backup PGs. Only Delon Wright has shown more promise offensively.

[rapcity10]

You have no idea what you're taking about here.

Care to explain. Am I wrong in saying that miles is strictly a catch and shoot shooter that is a decent defender. While ross has way more creativity in his game, has a growing floor game, and can create his own whenever he wants and get it off whenever he wants compared to miles because he is a considerably better ball handler, and has more creativity in his game with his crossovers and go to moves. Not saying Ross is some go to player btw.

I don't think you can even mention floor game and Ross is the same sentence. All Ross ever did was shy away from contact and shoot the 3 ball, with some occasional dunks thrown in there. You cannot be more wrong about Miles not being able to come off screen to shoot. Watch some of his youtube highlights, there's many screen actions they run for him, curling off screens, off ball screen and curling for a short pull up or floater.

Well he was developing that aspect of his game every year, he made some good reads and passes, especially to the big men when curling off screens for us, especially the drop off passes to the big men when driving hard to the paint. So your already wrong there. Ross has more creativity on offence, has a considerably better handle, better shooter coming off screens, better shooter off the dribble, and developed a nice floater game to his arsenal off the screens AND Off the dribble. Your saying shy away from contact like Cj Miles is going to be driving it to the paint and looking for contact with us, lmfao stop this.

[whysoserious]

Making a good pass or dump off once every 10-15 games is not developing a floor game. Obviously an over exaggeration but the point is Ross would do some good and then follow up with nothing for games and his effort could never be relied upon. This is not a good NBA bench player and was given every opportunity to prove himself and didn't.

[rapcity10]

Think his impact could have been better than Smart, if he got more minutes and next year he will definitely he's more impactful that Marcus Smart.

You guys are out to lunch. Last year he was the backup point guard for 20+ games and he looked invisible in a handful of those games. For a 24 year old supposedly NBA ready point guard. Marcus smart is also exactly 2 years younger than him. Some of the homers on this board kill me. Marcus Smart is on another LEVEL compared to Delon Wright, you ask all 30 NBA general managers who would they rather have all 30 of them will laugh at you that your even asking that question. Delon Wright is going to struggle in some games so bad next year that Fred Van Vleet is going to be the backup for a period of time. Wrights a mediocore prospect until proven otherwise.

Marcus Smart has had nearly 6000 NBA minutes. He's also 23. Based on that age and those minutes some conclusions can be drawn. His career FG% over that span? A pathetic .358. His 3 point percentage over that span? 29%. He has a true shooting percentage of .480 through 3 seasons and a massive sample size of opportunity. That's downright horrible in a league where starting caliber PGs are expected to not only make their teammates better but also become volume scorers themselves on elite efficiency.

Both are shaping up to be big defensive backup PGs at this point in time. Note the comparison here over 36 minutes and you'll quickly see why the comparison isn't anywhere near as crazy as you suggest. They're also separated by only 9 spots in RPM.

Smart has been handed the reigns more because of where he was drafted but the growth hasn't been there to really indicate that it's actually going to come. For as often as you criticize Raptors for failing to develop you should have a look at where Smart has plateaued. This could very well be who he is and if he doesn't have significant growth left in him then his per minute contributions are going to seem close enough to what Delon Wright brings long-term.

Smart's rookie year coincided with the arrival of I.T. who is among the worst defensive players in all of basketball. As one might expect, these 2 variables being introduced at once made it harder to determine mathematically if Smart was truly a defensive game-changer, or merely a very solid big PG who just looked elite defensively because Isaiah Thomas is that poor a defender on/off. As more data became available between both within Boston over the next 2 seasons the math has more and more pointed to Smart simply being among the best defensive PGs in the sport to being pretty solid. He's slid as more data has become available on him, not climbed up. In fact, Delon Wright last year ranked higher on the defensive side in RPM than Smart last year and that's with him coming on when Lowry or Cory are off. So, even Smart's calling card... and the thing that's supposed to make him special might not be notably better than Wright's. Remember, Delon Wright was lauded for defensive upside as a prospect too. Draft steals happen in basketball and the difference in quality between Wright and Smart may be remote despite the gap in where they were taken.

So, unless Smart actually makes use of the 2 year gap in a substantial way... they're both shaping up like big defensive backup PGs. Only Delon Wright has shown more promise offensively.

You could show me the RPM's, TTMs, CBC's, AbC's, different models all you want, the point of the matter is that Marcus smart makes his presence known whenever he is on the court. He makes winning plays, that don't show up in your models, and the different ABC's. He is already at his age one of the of most vertisile guard defenders, and defenders in general, PERIOD. He just shot 40 percent from three last year in the playoffs, he shot 33 percent his first year in the league. Is he a great offensive player? No. But he's got way more potential on that side of the court than Delon and it's not even funny, and is already 10 times more of a dynamic and influential defender than Delon Wright is, and that he will ever be. There's a reason why one of the brightest minds and best coaches In the game in Brad Stevens raves about him, and is one of Danny Ainges favourite players. And second I never say anything bad about our development system, I think our development system and Casey, especially Casey are good at developing players. It's got to do more with our prospects, and how 80 percent of them are mediocore to worth nothing prospects.

[rapcity10]

Making a good pass or dump off once every 10-15 games is not developing a floor game. Obviously an over exaggeration but the point is Ross would do some good and then follow up with nothing for games and his effort could never be relied upon. This is not a good NBA bench player and was given every opportunity to prove himself and didn't.

What has CJ miles done in his career that makes him better than Ross then???!! Tell me. Your saying it like CJ miles is some consistent professional that shows up to every game, every year, and in the playoffs. Have you looked at CJ miles playoff numbers? Are you kidding me right now. Are you kidding me??? Hahahaha. Look at his percentages the last two years. He shot 10 percent I repeat 10 PERCENT from 3 point land against us in the playoffs! 25 percent from the field!!!! Shot 31 percent from three in the playoffs last year! Look at his career stats, are you kidding me? Jeezus Christ.

[Basketball_Jones]

I don't know what to expect, haven't seen them play all that much. Were they any good in summer league? I think I saw some Pascal highlights he looked pretty good.

[whysoserious]

Making a good pass or dump off once every 10-15 games is not developing a floor game. Obviously an over exaggeration but the point is Ross would do some good and then follow up with nothing for games and his effort could never be relied upon. This is not a good NBA bench player and was given every opportunity to prove himself and didn't.

What has CJ miles done in his career that makes him better than Ross then???!! Tell me. Your saying it like CJ miles is some consistent professional that shows up to every game, every year, and in the playoffs. Have you looked at CJ miles playoff numbers? Are you kidding me right now. Are you kidding me??? Hahahaha. Look at his percentages the last two years. He shot 10 percent I repeat 10 PERCENT from 3 point land against us in the playoffs! 25 percent from the field!!!! Shot 31 percent from three in the playoffs last year! Look at his career stats, are you kidding me? Jeezus Christ.

Ross shot 30%, 38% and 39% from the field in three playoff seasons, shot less than 33% from three in all three seasons, not really some great contributor that can't be improved on? Miles has some bad numbers but also had his best year last year during the RS. What are Ross great career stats that suggest he could be relied on? He's the same player he's been since he came in to the league with the same issues.

[Jadoogar]

I honestly can't see Wright becoming much. If he becomes Shaun Livingston, that's a hell of a win.

I can't see our bum coach giving the kids a long enough leash. Because he has no foresight. Because he ain't a head coach.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Shaun Livingston out of a 20ish pick is incredible. I actually like Wright a lot, he has potential to be a great defender and passer, like a Rubio-lite. Rubio in a backup role is fantastic.

[rapcity10]

Making a good pass or dump off once every 10-15 games is not developing a floor game. Obviously an over exaggeration but the point is Ross would do some good and then follow up with nothing for games and his effort could never be relied upon. This is not a good NBA bench player and was given every opportunity to prove himself and didn't.

What has CJ miles done in his career that makes him better than Ross then???!! Tell me. Your saying it like CJ miles is some consistent professional that shows up to every game, every year, and in the playoffs. Have you looked at CJ miles playoff numbers? Are you kidding me right now. Are you kidding me??? Hahahaha. Look at his percentages the last two years. He shot 10 percent I repeat 10 PERCENT from 3 point land against us in the playoffs! 25 percent from the field!!!! Shot 31 percent from three in the playoffs last year! Look at his career stats, are you kidding me? Jeezus Christ.

Ross shot 30%, 38% and 39% from the field in three playoff seasons, shot less than 33% from three in all three seasons, not really some great contributor that can't be improved on? Miles has some bad numbers but also had his best year last year during the RS. What are Ross great career stats that suggest he could be relied on? He's the same player he's been since he came in to the league with the same issues.

This thread isn't meant to be about Ross. It's the fact that someone said that Miles is way better than Ross, which is completely false. I'm not making this a Ross vs miles debate thread, the fact of the matter is this, if Masai was offered the chance of Ross or Miles who would he pick? Who would the rest of the league pick? Miles had his best 3 point shooting percentage year last year, but what about the norm? Truth of the matter is both are inconsistent, both have struggled in the playoffs to this point in their careers, but one is a more dynamic scorer, and one is considerably younger.

[Tokey41]

Poetl and Wright seem like serviceable backups we can feel good about giving minutes to. I don't know what else to say about them... I really wouldn't want either one to be starters.

As for Ross vs Miles, I think more apt comparison would be Ross vs. Ibaka since that was the trade. Miles will also be a serviceable backup (just like Ross was), but Ibaka? I think of all the Raptors, both my hopes and worries are the highest for him. If he learns his place in the offense (and if Lowry and Derozan trust him enough to provide touches) this team will succeed.

[Johnny Bball]

How in the world is miles way better than Ross?? Are people actually expecting this guy to change the outcome of this team for us? Look at his numbers in the playoffs, miles I'm talking about it, especially against us when he was with the pacers, he was terrible. He will not be shooting 41 percent from three next year that's first, he'll come back down to his norm average. Second he is purely a catch and shoot shooter, that is an adequate defender. He can't curl off screens, and create his own shot like Ross can. He can't get his shot off whenever he wants like he can, and he doesn't have the floor game he has. Stop this nonsense.

You have no idea what you're taking about here.

Care to explain. Am I wrong in saying that miles is strictly a catch and shoot shooter that is a decent defender. While ross has way more creativity in his game, has a growing floor game, and can create his own whenever he wants and get it off whenever he wants compared to miles because he is a considerably better ball handler, and has more creativity in his game with his crossovers and go to moves. Not saying Ross is some go to player btw.

About a third of Miles shots are spot ups. The rest are off screens etc. Yes he get shis shot off very quick and is good at it. But a big part of his game IS shots after coming off screens. Calling him just a catch and shoot player is wrong. You don't have to be a ballhandler in the way Ross was to be something other than a catch and shoot player. Seems to me there's more than being a pure shooter or a player that creates his own shot and there's definately a middle ground.

Literally the first two videos I saw I can use as examples.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Lowry and Miles in the PNR with Lowry as the ballhandler is going to be something no team can defend well without two very solid man on man and PNR defenders. And if you do that while playing smallball with Miles at the 4, its harder to stop.

He's not going to be the leading scorer or option 1, 2 and maybe 3, but saying he's just a shooter is just bad.

I have no idea how we ended up talking about Miles in a thread that isn't about him, but it deserved a response.