The spacing in our bench units is going to be horrendous

[CoachD]

You can literally find video of teams doing the exact same thing to Jimmy Butler. Despite being better from outside than Demar, nobody views him as a true shooter.

[kj_]

agreed miles definitely needs to come off of the bench

My concern would be that Miles is a spot up shooter and I think he'd have trouble getting open looks with the second unit. Playing with Demar, Kyle and Ibaka would get him looks as the D would need to focus on those guys so much.

The second unit will need to get out and run to score. Defence will need to be aggressive and solid at creating turnovers. They'll need to get out and run off all misses. And hopefully Siakam and Delon have improved enough from 3 to dissuade defences from encouraging them to shoot that shot. If they can force defences to guard them out to 3, then Norm will have some lanes to attack, otherwise scoring lulls will be a regular thing.


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[hsb]

You can literally find video of teams doing the exact same thing to Jimmy Butler. Despite being better from outside than Demar, nobody views him as a true shooter.

That's fine but my examples stems through consistency from what I see on the court, if you disagree please let me know. I also still very much disagree that DD's and-1 frequency from dribbling in open space is enough of a buffer on team performance in comparison to the negative floor spacing by having him stand around the three point line.

He'll need to improve as a shooter from 15 feet beyond the rim or else these threads will continue to exist and some of the problems we see in the playoffs will continue as well.

[CoachD]

You can literally find video of teams doing the exact same thing to Jimmy Butler. Despite being better from outside than Demar, nobody views him as a true shooter.

That's fine but my examples stems through consistency from what I see on the court, if you disagree please let me know. I also still very much disagree that DD's and-1 frequency from dribbling in open space is enough of a buffer on team performance in comparison to the negative floor spacing by having him stand around the three point line.

He'll need to improve as a shooter from 15 feet beyond the rim or else these threads will continue to exist and some of the problems we see in the playoffs will continue as well.

Was DD not amongst the top 2 or 3 in the NBA the last 2 years in FTA and and one plays?
I concede he is far from a perfect player ... but my point is, everyone is trying so hard to turn players into the ideal roster that the Warrors have, when history suggests, the best way to beat a strong team is to focus on your own strengths and not to try and play their style

[DreamTeam09]

agreed miles definitely needs to come off of the bench

My concern would be that Miles is a spot up shooter and I think he'd have trouble getting open looks with the second unit. Playing with Demar, Kyle and Ibaka would get him looks as the D would need to focus on those guys so much.

The second unit will need to get out and run to score. Defence will need to be aggressive and solid at creating turnovers. They'll need to get out and run off all misses. And hopefully Siakam and Delon have improved enough from 3 to dissuade defences from encouraging them to shoot that shot. If they can force defences to guard them out to 3, then Norm will have some lanes to attack, otherwise scoring lulls will be a regular thing.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Most of Miles minutes this year will come in lines up of

Delon
Lowry
Miles
Siakam
Jakob

or

Lowry
Demar
Powell
CJ
Ibaka

rarely are we gonna see all 5 bench players out there at 1nce,

[hsb]

You can literally find video of teams doing the exact same thing to Jimmy Butler. Despite being better from outside than Demar, nobody views him as a true shooter.

That's fine but my examples stems through consistency from what I see on the court, if you disagree please let me know. I also still very much disagree that DD's and-1 frequency from dribbling in open space is enough of a buffer on team performance in comparison to the negative floor spacing by having him stand around the three point line.

He'll need to improve as a shooter from 15 feet beyond the rim or else these threads will continue to exist and some of the problems we see in the playoffs will continue as well.

Was DD not amongst the top 2 or 3 in the NBA the last 2 years in FTA and and one plays?
I concede he is far from a perfect player ... but my point is, everyone is trying so hard to turn players into the ideal roster that the Warrors have, when history suggests, the best way to beat a strong team is to focus on your own strengths and not to try and play their style

I don't think those FTA numbers are all attribute to driving in open space caused by his inability to create spacing for himself and others lol and whatever percentage is because of that wont be enough in a game where many more possessions occur.

A point this thread kind of makes is because of DD's spacing issue as a main backcourt option there is a limit to the number of effective lineup variations you can have around him. So a few possible bench lineups with DD would be horrendous from a spacing perspective.

If it's about playing to your strengths, one benefit would be to have more things you're stronger at than weak (mid-2000s Spurs are an example of that - could take on D'Antoni and Nash as well as Detroit and the Wallace duo because of it), and here we have an issue that will limit it.

[Johnny Bball]

Ibaka/Kyle soak up a lot of above the break 3's so really we need corner 3's. Even Demar is respectable from out there.

DD shot 18% above the break in the regular season and 10% in the playoffs. He shot under 40% over the last 4 years from 15-19 feet as well. He also likes to operate at the top when he gets the ball - where he can call a pick or not and make his move - so he hangs out there so much the corner threat will be fairly minimal.

Teams know this and it's why when he doesn't have the ball players drop back to the free throw line and rather chase after someone else. For example, watch JR Smith here:

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

There is no other way around it - he's the team's main guard lol. He needs to be better above the break and from long twos or teams will continue to ignore him on the court without the ball and cheat off of him - ruining spacing for everyone else.

Terrible example. JR drops back because Lowry is ISO'ed against Love and Love is dead in the water. It doesn't matter who JR was guarding there he has to help. JR steps up the the line when DD touches the ball. Our team defends the very same way and collapses in quite often, just for another reason.

Your new narrative that our spacing problems are because of Derozan, and therefore nothing to do with JV, and that he doesn't get guarded at the 3 point line is weak.

[Johnny Bball]

I disagree fundamentally.

#1 there's nothing wrong with Demar getting more post ups against guards and putting guards in quick foul trouble.

JV is conservatively among the top 10 of NBA centers when it comes to sealing their man and scoring with their back to the basket.
They almost never play him off the block and give him traditional post ups. Whatever he gets comes from rolling off the dunker spot, rolling off screens or when he's left wide open with his jumper.

The only reason Zaza only plays 18 MPG is because he doesn't have an inside skill set like JV. If JV was on GSW he would be averaging 14+ FGA and playing 26+ mpg

Ok but that works only against some teams. DD will post up weaker defenders but he shouldn't be posting up Butler for example. JV the same. But we still have him post up no matter who he's defending often. I would be willing to concede there are certain matchups either way that this works for both players. The problem on this forum is that everyone thinks it should happen every game when its JV, and that's just not good.

Derozan has become a better passer. JV really has not. If the goal is to postup with the intention of eventually demanding a double team and find a wide open 3, I think its a better goal than the primary goal of posting up to score. The quick recognition to find that guy is just not there yet, and I'm not sure that is going to much change. I guess we will see. I do think being in better shape allows better decision making when you aren't gassed from having to defend every play.

Jv would not be averaging that on GSW. No way. The Zaza argument... 18 mpg is not typical starter minutes and its because they space the floor and defend far better with him out. And that's similar no matter who their C is, which is why they can swap almost any centre in and out. And 3s come off long on misses, so Zaza doesn't have a rebounding edge on the glass like quicker players do. With is why when you can play 5 out, if both teams shoot more 3's going small, the Centre's rebounding directly under the glass becomes less important. Same for us if we play 5 out.

[hsb]

Terrible example. JR drops back because Lowry is ISO'ed against Love and Love is dead in the water. It doesn't matter who JR was guarding there he has to help. JR steps up the the line when DD touches the ball. Our team defends the very same way and collapses in quite often, just for another reason.

Your new narrative that our spacing problems are because of Derozan, and therefore nothing to do with JV, and that he doesn't get guarded at the 3 point line is weak.

Lets not pretend that is the only example out there, so please don't waste your data writing that all out.

Yes, creating spacing on the perimeter should be about the team's center who averages 6 FGA per game when you takeaway putbacks and plays half the game and not one of the highest usage player in the league who the team's offense is created around. What a more important aspect on how the team functions

At least LeBron sticks by and doesn't want to leave JV under the rim unlike JR on the perimeter who stays near the free throw line and runs away for 90% of the possession LOL.

[pkiskool]

The spacing on our team OVERALL is pretty terrible. We have only 4 "shooters" you could say, Lowry, norm, serge, and miles. And one of those guys, norm is still inconsistent with his shot.

Don't worry, Demar spent hours at biosteel center putting up close to thousand threes.
JV was practicing threes at FIBA.
OG shot well in college.

/All green font

[Johnny Bball]

Terrible example. JR drops back because Lowry is ISO'ed against Love and Love is dead in the water. It doesn't matter who JR was guarding there he has to help. JR steps up the the line when DD touches the ball. Our team defends the very same way and collapses in quite often, just for another reason.

Your new narrative that our spacing problems are because of Derozan, and therefore nothing to do with JV, and that he doesn't get guarded at the 3 point line is weak.

Lets not pretend that is the only example out there, so please don't waste your data writing that all out.

Yes, creating spacing on the perimeter should be about the team's center who averages 6 FGA per game when you takeaway putbacks and plays half the game and not one of the highest usage player in the league who the team's offense is created around. What a more important aspect on how the team functions

At least LeBron sticks by and doesn't want to leave JV under the rim unlike JR on the perimeter who stays near the free throw line and runs away for 90% of the possession LOL.

Except its part of why why he doesn't play more minutes and its why Zaza plays 18, with the other being his defense. Lol all you like, its fact. I'm still uncertain to the resistance to admitting the game has changed. I'm happy with JV playing 20-25 minutes the way he plays. You're his fan. You should be the one that truly wants to see him to change his game. Or ...is everyone else is wrong?

As for the defense part...I don't know what to say besides thinking you're not paying attention to defense. All teams, all defenders collapse in closer to the paint when the ball is not on their side of the floor or in that players hands. I can show thousands of examples for all defenses doing what you just posted. I'm pretty done already with this concept that Derozan doesn't command a defender and doesn't space the floor, because it isn't true. Defenders can go under screens which helps them, and that's one thing, but they aren't leaving him any more open and he's not killing our spacing. As opposed to a defending big always being in the paint because JV is, or they don't have to play up on him when he's not because he's no threat. So yes, it does matter more and has nothing to do with how much JV shoots.

Wait... did LBJ need to leave him to quadruple team Lowry? JR shouldn't have helped? No that's just any team's help defense.

[CoachD]

I disagree fundamentally.

#1 there's nothing wrong with Demar getting more post ups against guards and putting guards in quick foul trouble.

JV is conservatively among the top 10 of NBA centers when it comes to sealing their man and scoring with their back to the basket.
They almost never play him off the block and give him traditional post ups. Whatever he gets comes from rolling off the dunker spot, rolling off screens or when he's left wide open with his jumper.

The only reason Zaza only plays 18 MPG is because he doesn't have an inside skill set like JV. If JV was on GSW he would be averaging 14+ FGA and playing 26+ mpg

Ok but that works only against some teams. DD will post up weaker defenders but he shouldn't be posting up Butler for example. JV the same. But we still have him post up no matter who he's defending often. I would be willing to concede there are certain matchups either way that this works for both players. The problem on this forum is that everyone thinks it should happen every game when its JV, and that's just not good.

Derozan has become a better passer. JV really has not. If the goal is to postup with the intention of eventually demanding a double team and find a wide open 3, I think its a better goal than the primary goal of posting up to score. The quick recognition to find that guy is just not there yet, and I'm not sure that is going to much change. I guess we will see. I do think being in better shape allows better decision making when you aren't gassed from having to defend every play.

Jv would not be averaging that on GSW. No way. The Zaza argument... 18 mpg is not typical starter minutes and its because they space the floor and defend far better with him out. And that's similar no matter who their C is, which is why they can swap almost any centre in and out. And 3s come off long on misses, so Zaza doesn't have a rebounding edge on the glass like quicker players do. With is why when you can play 5 out, if both teams shoot more 3's going small, the Centre's rebounding directly under the glass becomes less important. Same for us if we play 5 out.

I prefer a 4 out offence where either you have 1 dedicated post player (any position) or you send cutters into the post like in a Read and React system.

As far as Demar only posting up weaker defenders ....how many 2s in the NBA would you consider outstanding defenders? 5 or 6? How many in the east? 2 or 3? And to be honest, Demar's footwork has gotten so good, i put him on the block against anyone at his position and believe that most possessions will result in buckets or FTA

[dukes_wild]

Honestly, a lot of teams have benches that don't have ideal spacing, part of the reason why they are bench players.

If you're a lights out shooter, you're usually a starting caliber player unless you can't do anything else like Jodie Meeks, Anthony Morrow, Troy Daniels etc.

But yeah, our bench's spacing is even worse than the majority of opposing team's benches.

[Pooh_Jeter]

No I'm VERY AWARE of what the modern NBA looks like.

FYI... The GSW team that broke the RS record....

Bogut was nowhere near as effective in the post as JV... And while he was a very good post defender, he couldn't guard anyone beyond 15 feet.

If Bogut could have scored more consistently inside, he would have finished more games.

Pachulia.

Is a great 3 pt defender? No.
Is he a great post player? No.

But somehow they find a spot for him in the starting line up

Bogut is an outstanding passer and he would initiate offensive sets for the Warriors. Pachulia isn't quite in Bogut's league, but he is a solid and willing passer as well. As noted above, his minutes are very limited as well. A guy like Pachulia starts because it would make no sense to play the Death line-up heavy minutes over the course of the regular season.

JV can score in the post, but he is extremely one dimensional and can struggle at times establishing deep post position. He is also awful at reading doubles and passing it out. He would get exposed badly if he was any sort of focal point to the offense.

The reason why teams have leveraged 7 footers like Bogut and Noah in the high post as a passer more than anything else is because they lacked any sort of inside game. There has been a generation of bigs wanting to be more like KG than like Shaq - which is why that skill set isn't being developed. For that reason, teams are acting like they have to hide their 7 footers

If their skill set allows them to operate effectively in the high post and complement the guard play why does it matter?

You have a league right now that isn't just about spacing and 3 point shooting, it's about ball and player movement. A big holding the ball for 14 seconds in the post is not an efficient use of possessions. Sure, if prime Shaq walked through the door you would tailor your offense towards him, but we are talking about JV. Even in this hypothetical scenario I would guess his passing ability and screen and roll usage would be more useful than just dumping it to him 15-20 times a game.

[Johnny Bball]

I prefer a 4 out offence where either you have 1 dedicated post player (any position) or you send cutters into the post like in a Read and React system.

As far as Demar only posting up weaker defenders ....how many 2s in the NBA would you consider outstanding defenders? 5 or 6? How many in the east? 2 or 3? And to be honest, Demar's footwork has gotten so good, i put him on the block against anyone at his position and believe that most possessions will result in buckets or FTA

Fair enough. I just think that remaining one player has to be able to be able to be a threat from farther out as well. He doesn't have to play there solely, no. That's not what I'm saying.

Derozan has a a better advantage posting up SGs, than JV would have with centres, but DD commands the best wing defenders, so its SG and SFs usually. If you do that with DD though, he doesn't play at the top of the break, plays off the ball, and then you have both players on the blocks with JV and DD, which isn''t ideal. I would say it gets done when he plays with the bench or in the 4th quarter mostly, but that's just a guess.

[CoachD]

I prefer a 4 out offence where either you have 1 dedicated post player (any position) or you send cutters into the post like in a Read and React system.

As far as Demar only posting up weaker defenders ....how many 2s in the NBA would you consider outstanding defenders? 5 or 6? How many in the east? 2 or 3? And to be honest, Demar's footwork has gotten so good, i put him on the block against anyone at his position and believe that most possessions will result in buckets or FTA

Fair enough. I just think that remaining one player has to be able to be able to be a threat from farther out as well. He doesn't have to play there solely, no. That's not what I'm saying.

Derozan has a a better advantage posting up SGs, than JV would have with centres, but DD commands the best wing defenders, so its SG and SFs usually. If you do that with DD though, he doesn't play at the top of the break, plays off the ball, and then you have both players on the blocks with JV and DD, which isn''t ideal. I would say it gets done when he plays with the bench or in the 4th quarter mostly, but that's just a guess.

I'll use the same logic with JV I did with Demar.

How many elite defensive 5s are there in the NBA? And how many in the east?
Many people seem to think Drummond is one of them, but JV regularly has his way with Drummond. He seems to play well against any traditional center he just doesn't get minutes with the opposition goes small

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Just put our thin 3 point shooting lithuanian big with our bench unit.

Outside scoring problem solved.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

You can literally find video of teams doing the exact same thing to Jimmy Butler. Despite being better from outside than Demar, nobody views him as a true shooter.

I doubt they simply leave a guy who's almost a superstar and can hit the three open all the time, because they don't expect him to do anything if he gets the ball out there. That is a ridiculous take. Demar OTOH...

[CoachD]

You can literally find video of teams doing the exact same thing to Jimmy Butler. Despite being better from outside than Demar, nobody views him as a true shooter.

I doubt they simply leave a guy who's almost a superstar and can hit the three open all the time, because they don't expect him to do anything if he gets the ball out there. That is a ridiculous take. Demar OTOH...

Sweet take.
wrong.
But sweet.

[CoachD]

Bogut is an outstanding passer and he would initiate offensive sets for the Warriors. Pachulia isn't quite in Bogut's league, but he is a solid and willing passer as well. As noted above, his minutes are very limited as well. A guy like Pachulia starts because it would make no sense to play the Death line-up heavy minutes over the course of the regular season.

JV can score in the post, but he is extremely one dimensional and can struggle at times establishing deep post position. He is also awful at reading doubles and passing it out. He would get exposed badly if he was any sort of focal point to the offense.

The reason why teams have leveraged 7 footers like Bogut and Noah in the high post as a passer more than anything else is because they lacked any sort of inside game. There has been a generation of bigs wanting to be more like KG than like Shaq - which is why that skill set isn't being developed. For that reason, teams are acting like they have to hide their 7 footers

If their skill set allows them to operate effectively in the high post and complement the guard play why does it matter?

You have a league right now that isn't just about spacing and 3 point shooting, it's about ball and player movement. A big holding the ball for 14 seconds in the post is not an efficient use of possessions. Sure, if prime Shaq walked through the door you would tailor your offense towards him, but we are talking about JV. Even in this hypothetical scenario I would guess his passing ability and screen and roll usage would be more useful than just dumping it to him 15-20 times a game.

I don't think you understand how long 14 seconds is.
Please provide a clip of Shaq holding the ball down low for 14 seconds and I will post a video of me eating my own hat.