F SI #ProveEm

[Johnny Bball]

It's all about defense. Demar has to start playing defense if he wants to be ranked higher.

But It's really not about that for SI and their list shows it.

[Johnny Bball]

It's all about defense. Demar has to start playing defense if he wants to be ranked higher.

Zero defence and inefficient offence will get you disrespected.

If he just played average defence, he'd be a MUCH more valuable player.

The "inefficient offense" thing is starting to become so stupid.

Go to hollingers ESPN page and go back ten years to 2007. Sort it by usage and then tell me Demar Derozan was not efficient last year when compared to the top ten players in usage every single year. His TS% is pretty decent in that top ten group. imnot sure why people can't see these two correlate.

[tdot56]

It's all about defense. Demar has to start playing defense if he wants to be ranked higher.

This

[the_other_guy]

Ya like those other defensive soldiers that are ahead of him.

Harden
Westbrook
Kyrie
Thomas

Seriously. Those guys are DPOY candidates every year.
Pick it up Demar.

Is he as good offensively as those players?

Are they 30 ranking spots better than him?? Are they LIGHT YEARS better offensively??

He was the 5th leading scorer in the NBA last year and received MVP votes.
If he had put up those EXACT SAME numbers playing for the Lakers, he would be in the top 10.

Period.

If you're going to use defence as the justification, then be consistent. By that measure, i dont EVER want to see Thomas, Harden, Kyrie or Russ anywhere NEAR the top 25.

1 x 5th place vote.

[Lukeem]

ppg leaders

westbrook
harden
thomas - 40
davis
derozan -37
lillard -17
cousins -23
james
leonard
curry
irving -21
towns -14
durrant
butler -11
george -12
wiggins - 50
walker -29
wall -13
beal - 32
mccollum -39
antemkoupe
anthony -37
lowry -19
thompson -21
booker
hawyard -16
griffin -22
lopez - 45
bledsoe -38
conley -20

[Rapcity_11]

It's all about defense. Demar has to start playing defense if he wants to be ranked higher.

Zero defence and inefficient offence will get you disrespected.

If he just played average defence, he'd be a MUCH more valuable player.

The "inefficient offense" thing is starting to become so stupid.

Go to hollingers ESPN page and go back ten years to 2007. Sort it by usage and then tell me Demar Derozan was not efficient last year when compared to the top ten players in usage every single year. His TS% is pretty decent in that top ten group. imnot sure why people can't see these two correlate.

League wide efficiency was ~1% higher last year compared to those other 10 years, so doing that makes no sense.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

ppg leaders

westbrook
harden
thomas - 40
davis
derozan -37
lillard
cousins
james
leonard
curry
irving
towns
durrant
butler
george
wiggins - 50
walker
wall
beal - 32
mccollum -39
antemkoupe
anthony -37
lowry
thompson
booker
hawyard
griffin
lopez - 45
bledsoe -38
conley

Ok, so how accurate would it be to take that list and call it the top 30? Not very, eh? So why keep saying DD's in undervalued based on PPG like its more than just one of several factors? Fantasy doesn't even include defence much, yet how many of you arguing that his is out to lunch would take DD in the first two rounds of your fantasy draft? His ADP, is 34.5. Now that is BS and not legitamet rankins system, but so is PPG.

[Kevin Willis]

ppg leaders

westbrook
harden
thomas - 40
davis
derozan -37
lillard
cousins
james
leonard
curry
irving
towns
durrant
butler
george
wiggins - 50
walker
wall
beal - 32
mccollum -39
antemkoupe
anthony -37
lowry
thompson
booker
hawyard
griffin
lopez - 45
bledsoe -38
conley

Thanks. I put worse defenders in red. The ones that are arguable I didn't include in the list, ie. Beal, Irving. The ones that may be worse defenders but the system covers up their deficiency I didn't include, ie. Curry, Towns.

He should be higher but whatever, the main focus is going far in the playoffs.

[Johnny Bball]

Zero defence and inefficient offence will get you disrespected.

If he just played average defence, he'd be a MUCH more valuable player.

The "inefficient offense" thing is starting to become so stupid.

Go to hollingers ESPN page and go back ten years to 2007. Sort it by usage and then tell me Demar Derozan was not efficient last year when compared to the top ten players in usage every single year. His TS% is pretty decent in that top ten group. imnot sure why people can't see these two correlate.

League wide efficiency was ~1% higher last year compared to those other 10 years, so doing that makes no sense.

Lmao.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

If the league is moving towards more 3;s it's going to be more effeicient and players that don't do that, are thus, going to be less efficient than previously given that trend. Team defenses now, or the good ones, are designed to take away the 3''s. If you don't shoot them, and if you hold the ball and don't increase the pace of the ball movement, you are helping the defence, unless you put extreme pressure on in other ways. Maybe what DD does offsets some of what he doesn't do, but there are other players in the L, who can do a lot of what DD's does and the others stuff as well. DD is still though, in a situation where it's not even clear when you factor it all in how much he actually helps the team in the long run. There's lots that says over the course of several seasons, we've done better when he's off the court. And it's for those other reasons. and some say it because Lowry is like an MVP when he plays with the bench guys an without DD. And I'd then argue so why are we paying DD over 130 million dollars, so that Lowry can spend less time playing like an MVP. What matters is the team winning.

[Rapcity_11]

The "inefficient offense" thing is starting to become so stupid.

Go to hollingers ESPN page and go back ten years to 2007. Sort it by usage and then tell me Demar Derozan was not efficient last year when compared to the top ten players in usage every single year. His TS% is pretty decent in that top ten group. imnot sure why people can't see these two correlate.

League wide efficiency was ~1% higher last year compared to those other 10 years, so doing that makes no sense.

Lmao.

Yes, I thought your idea was funny as well.

[Moose23]

and on a side note, if that really is a tweet directly from DD himself....why is he worked up about arbitrary rankings in the first place?

No one else complains about them it seems, just shut up and go to work.

IT is definitely going to comment about his

perhaps...it also appears that CJ has as well. or at least CJ made a comment about even ranking in the first place, so not so much about where he falls but more about doing it in the first place.

[Lukeem]

ppg leaders

westbrook
harden
thomas - 40
davis
derozan -37
lillard
cousins
james
leonard
curry
irving
towns
durrant
butler
george
wiggins - 50
walker
wall
beal - 32
mccollum -39
antemkoupe
anthony -37
lowry
thompson
booker
hawyard
griffin
lopez - 45
bledsoe -38
conley

Ok, so how accurate would it be to take that list and call it the top 30? Not very, eh? So why keep saying DD's in undervalued based on PPG like its more than just one of several factors? Fantasy doesn't even include defence much, yet how many of you arguing that his is out to lunch would take DD in the first two rounds of your fantasy draft? His ADP, is 34.5. Now that is BS and not legitamet rankins system, but so is PPG.

i didnt say anything

ppg is a factor and when the list is out i want to see how it all stacks up... if anything though me putting that list out with a much younger wiggins also being a top 25 scorer but only ranking at 50 goes the other way than what you assumed i was saying

[Rapcity_11]

I have never read that, can you link me something?? Granted I rarely visit APBR anymore, and frquent more closed forums, but ive never heard anyone infer that.

The PC board here and a few random times on twitter.

A quick look on google led me to this:

https://squared2020.com/2017/07/10/analyzing-nba-possession-models/

I can't remember if nbawowy uses the counting method, but I think they might.

Ive always thought it was BBREF adjusts for REBs, in a macro sense. There has always been conflicting reports to NBA.com formula though. See this article and NBA.coms formula for instance vs the other article.

I post on a forum with DFS guys who code the PbP data they cull from NBA.com and they say its the best of the bunch for their programs, the same guy estimates they tweaked their formulas based on what hes culled and contrasting their results, but im not privy to all that data/etc.. to explore and confirm.

To your point I guess youre right, the issue being again how Evans site counts, in the same vein that Synergy is a counting stat site too.

That's the same nba.com formula man. The only difference is one uses both teams instead of just one team.

It's weird how secretive the NBA is about what formula they use though. There's no need for that.

There’s no issue with the PbP data from nba.com, so I’m not sure what the relevance of your comment is there? The issue is with the nba.com possession estimate in their Ortg/Drtg etc. calculations.

[ontnut]

James Harden could be the worst defender in the history of the NBA and he will be ranked too 5. Not saying they're the same talent but can't say DD isn't too 20 because of defence.

Sent from my LG-H812 using RealGM mobile app

They didn't. We didn't.
There are multiple issues they highlighted, including lack of 3pt shot, on ball awareness, AND defence.

Harden is also one of the best scorers and all around offensive players in NBA history, and would've been MVP last year if not for triple double fever (and some would say, he deserved it above Westbrook, as his team finished higher in the standings, and Harden put up close to a triple double too).

[ontnut]

Ya like those other defensive soldiers that are ahead of him.

Harden
Westbrook
Kyrie
Thomas

Seriously. Those guys are DPOY candidates every year.
Pick it up Demar.

Is he as good offensively as those players?

Are they 30 ranking spots better than him?? Are they LIGHT YEARS better offensively??

He was the 5th leading scorer in the NBA last year and received MVP votes.
If he had put up those EXACT SAME numbers playing for the Lakers, he would be in the top 10.

Period.

If you're going to use defence as the justification, then be consistent. By that measure, i dont EVER want to see Thomas, Harden, Kyrie or Russ anywhere NEAR the top 25.

It's not just defence. It's hitting 3's, play making, play off the ball, clutch scoring, these sort of things that some/all do better than Demar.

[Duffman100]

Is he as good offensively as those players?

Are they 30 ranking spots better than him?? Are they LIGHT YEARS better offensively??

He was the 5th leading scorer in the NBA last year and received MVP votes.
If he had put up those EXACT SAME numbers playing for the Lakers, he would be in the top 10.

Period.

If you're going to use defence as the justification, then be consistent. By that measure, i dont EVER want to see Thomas, Harden, Kyrie or Russ anywhere NEAR the top 25.

It's not just defence. It's hitting 3's, play making, play off the ball, clutch scoring, these sort of things that some/all do better than Demar.

Yes exactly. I said Demar could increase by his defense. But of course, if he becomes a top 5 offensive player in the league, yes that would boost him up the rankings as well.

It's not JUST defense. But seeing how I believe Demar is a terrible defender, I feel like on a player level that's his biggest room for improvement.

[ontnut]

and on a side note, if that really is a tweet directly from DD himself....why is he worked up about arbitrary rankings in the first place?

No one else complains about them it seems, just shut up and go to work.

Dude, plenty of players complain about their 2k ratings, several players this offseason alone, and that's for a VIDEO GAME. You don't think they get upset privately or publicly about SI rankings, which at one time were considered to be the most important rankings?

[ontnut]

Are they 30 ranking spots better than him?? Are they LIGHT YEARS better offensively??

He was the 5th leading scorer in the NBA last year and received MVP votes.
If he had put up those EXACT SAME numbers playing for the Lakers, he would be in the top 10.

Period.

If you're going to use defence as the justification, then be consistent. By that measure, i dont EVER want to see Thomas, Harden, Kyrie or Russ anywhere NEAR the top 25.

It's not just defence. It's hitting 3's, play making, play off the ball, clutch scoring, these sort of things that some/all do better than Demar.

Yes exactly. I said Demar could increase by his defense. But of course, if he becomes a top 5 offensive player in the league, yes that would boost him up the rankings as well.

It's not JUST defense. But seeing how I believe Demar is a terrible defender, I feel like on a player level that's his biggest room for improvement.

Agreed. That or hitting the 3's at a league average rate. Both of those are huge weaknesses, with which a slight improvement would propel him up the standings. The playmaking has improved over the years, so it's not as big of a weakness as it used to be (we will see about that this year, given that he's going to get more playmaking responsibilities sans Joseph).

[Moose23]

and on a side note, if that really is a tweet directly from DD himself....why is he worked up about arbitrary rankings in the first place?

No one else complains about them it seems, just shut up and go to work.

Dude, plenty of players complain about their 2k ratings, several players this offseason alone, and that's for a VIDEO GAME. You don't think they get upset privately or publicly about SI rankings, which at one time were considered to be the most important rankings?

well, obviously some players do get upset about it.

I fall into the category or people that just would not give a ****.

Dont like your video game character's ranking from a children's game? then modify the character to be a 99 rated player...stop bitching, put in work, get paid crazy amounts of money.