Gilbert Arenas talks Raptors

[Slo]

Arenas for GM!

[tecumseh18]

You guys are making it about the Nick Young thing - I agree it's reactionary and not the player you want to bring up - but the general theme and probably 95% of it is right on. This seems to be Masai's biggest issue in Denver and now here. If Ibaka and Tucker were his final moves for this core, it was a wrong one as it didn't change the tier of the team at all but this is also a guy who finally just realized the way they played basketball was stupid after three years in the playoffs - cough when some people were saying it so long ago cough...

This still belongs to the "just go get player X" school of thought.

Every GM in the league is trying to get impact players. Seriously, who didn't want Paul George? Or Hayward? Or Durant? Just because you want a player doesn't mean you can realistically get them. This is not fantasy land where you can just trade players around like Yugioh cards. Durant ended up on Golden State, so does that mean the other 28 teams didn't even pick up the phone?

Clearly it is fantasy land though. Paul George just got traded for Sabonis and Oladipo. We could have easily beat that offer. That's not even a question.

For the nth (and probably not last) time, Indiana did not want to trade George to an Eastern team. And they clearly did not want J-Val.

[Squintz21]

I didn't demonize you or say you were being manipulative, but choosing a cutoff point to frame a narrative has a huge impact on the conclusions you reach.

No it doesn't. Add Poeltl, Powell and Wright, doesn't matter - conclusion remains the same just like I wrote in my reply.

As I said in my other post, we went from a team that hadn't made the playoffs in years...

I don't care, this is not how you evaluate this current time period. It doesn't provide insight. You have to let it go.

Addition by subtraction will be significant this year. Not having Carroll as our starting SF and opening up space for Norm and Miles will significantly change our team. You gloss over Norm like he's some throw away, but he will be a significant part of our future and is far more useful than are giving him credit for.

What provides insight? Limiting your analysis to the last year and ignoring the recent history of our team so you can throw a pitty party even though we re probably going to finish top 4 in our conference again? Maybe you need to let it go.

[Big Mac Biyombo]

This still belongs to the "just go get player X" school of thought.

Every GM in the league is trying to get impact players. Seriously, who didn't want Paul George? Or Hayward? Or Durant? Just because you want a player doesn't mean you can realistically get them. This is not fantasy land where you can just trade players around like Yugioh cards. Durant ended up on Golden State, so does that mean the other 28 teams didn't even pick up the phone?

Clearly it is fantasy land though. Paul George just got traded for Sabonis and Oladipo. We could have easily beat that offer. That's not even a question.

For the nth (and probably not last) time, Indiana did not want to trade George to an Eastern team. And they clearly did not want J-Val.

Then Pritchard should be fired. He was just making a trade for the sake of making a trade. If you're going to just trade your best player and you don't even intend to get value in return, you're completely failing at your job.

Even if it wasn't us, there were certainly other teams offering more than Oladipo's dreadful contract.

[Reg00]

Players don't tend to be the greatest GM's. Imagine Gilbert being a GM? Holy hell I would lose my poop.

I don't think there is some evil Owner in Toronto land saying to Masai in the boardroom, "No, I'm sorry, I don't want to have a winning team. We must be mediocre always. Why? Because I am evil." They want to win. There is financial incentive to be a top team.

Oh, also. I think the owners ARE evil. But not in this way.

[Mack11]

[XxIronChainzxX]

What was the alternative though? You draw an arbitrary start and end point it's easy to manipulate how this looks. Why not talk about us getting Poeltl for the flaming corpse of Bargnani, or Norm and Wright from another part of the Gay trade when you talk about us losing PPat? Who is to say what the future holds? Maybe instead of patting himself on the back, Masai is hedging his bets to avoid a huge repeater penalty if we go deep into the luxury tax next year or the last year of this window. There's a difference between being critical and cynical speculation.

Ugh, you can call it an arbitrary start and end point but you shouldn't demonize me, or say I'm being manipulative, because I created one. That's taking it too far.

Add those players to a list, who cares, it doesn't change the tier of the team - which is what Arenas was alluding too. Ibaka's cool, but so what? He's not a game changer and was pretty terrible versus Cleveland.

Repeater tax doesn't work like that. It's 3 of the last 4 years iirc - so if your window is 3 years, this is a unique situation where they shouldn't give a damn but MLSE would do anything to avoid the tax so far to the point they gave up assets on a team that needs assets to flip - if they are serious about this core right now.

Ask yourself tougher questions, especially if you have to buy a specialty channel just to watch half their games on TV...

There's no window. This team is not good enough to compete for a championship. We were humiliated twice in the playoffs by Cleveland. With an injured, off-his-game Curry and without Dray one game, the Cavs barely pulled off a close 4-3 series win that came down to the last few minutes. The next year the Dubs humiliated the Cavs, and we weren't even close.

DD and Lowry aren't good enough to win. Even if we add PG and lose no one, the team probably still isn't good enough to beat Cleveland.

[720]

This is why I keep dreaming about cousins getting traded here. We need a third legit star.

[MixxSRC]

bro that third might be OG

[BD006]

What provides insight? Limiting your analysis to the last year and ignoring the recent history of our team so you can throw a pitty party even though we re probably going to finish top 4 in our conference again? Maybe you need to let it go.

What does any of what you're saying about the team's regular season success the last 4 years have to do with Arenas' view of our current team? He's saying we're good, but not good enough. Teams like the Rockets, Spurs, Thunder are widely considered to be a tier above us, and no one is willing to give them any consideration at actually winning it all, at least not with the current GS squad.

No need to ignore the last 4 years: We're a team that lost in the first round twice with home court (once getting swept) and we got embarrassed 2 years in a row by a legitimate championship contender in the Cavs (yes, it was great we took it to 6 games in 2016, but the games we lost were ugly).

[Yallbecrazy]

Nick Young, bona fide starter in the NBA, was a team worst -10 for Golden State off the bench in their loss to Houston. They basically lost the game during his run in the 4th.

It's a testament to how bad Nick Young is that he went 8/9, 6/7 from 3 in 26 minutes and was somehow a team worst -10.

Or, you know... +/- is an easily skewed stat and a 1 game sample size means absolutely nothing

\Well duh... all I'm saying is it takes a special kind of player to be that bad while playing that good

[LJKO]

If you look at Golden State, they grabbed a player who nobody paid attention to, but he’s going to be a great piece for them. That’s Nick Young. He showed it Tuesday night. He’s a starter in this league, but they got a starter coming off the bench. When you got [Andre] Iguodala and now Nick Young coming off the bench, it makes them that much more difficult to beat.

[Wasp]

What was the alternative though? You draw an arbitrary start and end point it's easy to manipulate how this looks. Why not talk about us getting Poeltl for the flaming corpse of Bargnani, or Norm and Wright from another part of the Gay trade when you talk about us losing PPat? Who is to say what the future holds? Maybe instead of patting himself on the back, Masai is hedging his bets to avoid a huge repeater penalty if we go deep into the luxury tax next year or the last year of this window. There's a difference between being critical and cynical speculation.

Ugh, you can call it an arbitrary start and end point but you shouldn't demonize me, or say I'm being manipulative, because I created one. That's taking it too far.

Add those players to a list, who cares, it doesn't change the tier of the team - which is what Arenas was alluding too. Ibaka's cool, but so what? He's not a game changer and was pretty terrible versus Cleveland.

Repeater tax doesn't work like that. It's 3 of the last 4 years iirc - so if your window is 3 years, this is a unique situation where they shouldn't give a damn but MLSE would do anything to avoid the tax so far to the point they gave up assets on a team that needs assets to flip - if they are serious about this core right now.

Ask yourself tougher questions, especially if you have to buy a specialty channel just to watch half their games on TV...

There's no window. This team is not good enough to compete for a championship. We were humiliated twice in the playoffs by Cleveland. With an injured, off-his-game Curry and without Dray one game, the Cavs barely pulled off a close 4-3 series win that came down to the last few minutes. The next year the Dubs humiliated the Cavs, and we weren't even close.

DD and Lowry aren't good enough to win. Even if we add PG and lose no one, the team probably still isn't good enough to beat Cleveland.

Last year we were humiliated, sure, but how is losing in 6 to the Cavs two years ago being humiliated? The only other team to win more than one game against the LeBron Cavs 2.0 are the Golden State Warriors.

Also, if your measure of being a good team is the ability to beat the Warriors, there is precisely 1 team that fits your narrative - the Warriors themselves.

[Squintz21]

What provides insight? Limiting your analysis to the last year and ignoring the recent history of our team so you can throw a pitty party even though we re probably going to finish top 4 in our conference again? Maybe you need to let it go.

What does any of what you're saying about the team's regular season success the last 4 years have to do with Arenas' view of our current team? He's saying we're good, but not good enough. Teams like the Rockets, Spurs, Thunder are widely considered to be a tier above us, and no one is willing to give them any consideration at actually winning it all, at least not with the current GS squad.

No need to ignore the last 4 years: We're a team that lost in the first round twice with home court (once getting swept) and we got embarrassed 2 years in a row by a legitimate championship contender in the Cavs (yes, it was great we took it to 6 games in 2016, but the games we lost were ugly).

I'm saying get some perspective, what do these posters and Arenas want the Raptors to do? There is never any plan to fix this problem, but just a lot of dumping on a team that has completely turned themselves around in 4 seasons. There is no overnight secret to become a championship team, why do people always frame it as if Masai just had a different plan we could be successful.

Everyone has been embarrassed by the Cavs except the GSW, why do we never hear the same level of dumping on them?

[BD006]

I'm saying get some perspective, what do these posters and Arenas want the Raptors to do? There is never any plan to fix this problem, but just a lot of dumping on a team that has completely turned themselves around in 4 seasons. There is no overnight secret to become a championship team, why do people always frame it as if Masai just had a different plan we could be successful.

Arenas played the game, I'm pretty sure he's aware you don't build championship teams overnight. I'm not sure why you would insinuate that.

Everyone has been embarrassed by the Cavs except the GSW, why do we never hear the same level of dumping on them?

Who are you talking about? Our reporter asked Gilbert Arenas about the Toronto Raptors! If you're talking about our board, the Toronto Raptors board, then I don't know what else to say to you other than, some of us would like to see a championship banner raised in the ACC rafters in our lifetime.

[LLJ]

No matter how much truth Arenas drops, he's still a clown at this point. My lasting impression of him, aside from his gun gestures, is that story of him licking the top off all the doughnuts, putting them back in the box and giving them to his teammates.

[Squintz21]

I'm saying get some perspective, what do these posters and Arenas want the Raptors to do? There is never any plan to fix this problem, but just a lot of dumping on a team that has completely turned themselves around in 4 seasons. There is no overnight secret to become a championship team, why do people always frame it as if Masai just had a different plan we could be successful.

Arenas played the game, I'm pretty sure he's aware you don't build championship teams overnight. I'm not sure why you would insinuate that.

Everyone has been embarrassed by the Cavs except the GSW, why do we never hear the same level of dumping on them?

Who are you talking about? Our reporter asked Gilbert Arenas about the Toronto Raptors! If you're talking about our board, the Toronto Raptors board, then I don't know what else to say to you other than, some of us would like to see a championship banner raised in the ACC rafters in our lifetime.

And because I'm tired of hearing the same old useless they're good but not great broken record I don't? There is not much of value in any of this analysis in my opinion. We know the Raptors need something more to get over that hump but what were their options? There weren't any so saying that is worthless. We weren't getting Cousins, or Hayward, or Butler, or Melo or George and playing this what if game of if Masai just had of tried this or that and because he didn't pull off the impossible they're not trying is ridiculous.

And this false dichotomy of something needs to happen "blow it up or get a superstar" is also useless. This has been debated to death on this board and just because friggin Gilbert Arenas of all people said it doesn't mean it's some epiphany that everyone around the league hadn't realized. What does he even know about success? The guy only made it past the first round once and never came anywhere close to a conference final let alone a championship, does that mean him and his teams weren't trying?

[6ixSideSniper]

I actually agree with Arenas. We've been in this status-quo for 4 years, I'm sure Lowry and DeRozan would of welcomed even 1 year with Paul George.

How quickly people forget. Four years ago we were looking at another outside looking in season. Then we trade Gay and make the playoffs and now all of a sudden because we've been more successful but haven't been able to get over the hump we've been stuck in a status-quo? What kind of instant gratification are people expecting?

We turn around a trainwreck of a franchise in a few seasons and people aren't happy because we didn't get a Paul George? What kind of delusional logic is that?

When are the Raptors suppose to make a move then? OKC has cycled thru 5 HoFers in the time of this core, our best players aren't getting any younger, like you said, it's been 4 years, if you consider that "instant gratification" then I hate to see what you think is an acceptable window for capitalizing on an opportunity. Look at what happened to all the other top teams in the east this last 5 years. The Hawks didn't add anything to put them over the top, the Pacers never did anything to put em over the Heat, and it goes on. This is a go big or go home league, there's no second place trophies.

But yes, fans that want their GM to maximize their star players windows of contention are delusional.

[Squintz21]

I actually agree with Arenas. We've been in this status-quo for 4 years, I'm sure Lowry and DeRozan would of welcomed even 1 year with Paul George.

How quickly people forget. Four years ago we were looking at another outside looking in season. Then we trade Gay and make the playoffs and now all of a sudden because we've been more successful but haven't been able to get over the hump we've been stuck in a status-quo? What kind of instant gratification are people expecting?

We turn around a trainwreck of a franchise in a few seasons and people aren't happy because we didn't get a Paul George? What kind of delusional logic is that?

When are the Raptors suppose to make a move then? OKC has cycled thru 5 HoFers in the time of this core, our best players aren't getting any younger, like you said, it's been 4 years, if you consider that "instant gratification" then I hate to see what you think is an acceptable window for capitalizing on an opportunity. Look at what happened to all the other top teams in the east this last 5 years. The Hawks didn't add anything to put them over the top, the Pacers never did anything to put em over the Heat, and it goes on. This is a go big or go home league, there's no second place trophies.

But yes, fans that want their GM to maximize their star players windows of contention are delusional.

What moves were there to make that we didn't make? You don't think the addition of Cj Miles was anything? Or ditching Carrolls trash ass to open up time for Norm? The people who think we should have gotten the stars I listed are the delusional ones, there was no chance. Go big or go home blah blah blah, who were we supposed to get to go big there and what would we have given up. I ask this question all the time to people pushing this and never receive an answer.

You're right there is only one winner, but that doesn't mean the teams that are good but not winning chips are wasting their time. That's how sports work.

[agk47]

The only way for this team to add another star will be through trade.

The only way to trade for a star is to develop our young assets.

Carrol patpat and cojo were cap cloggers who got in the way of this.


There was no move available to put this team over the top.

Pray Val + a young asset or two can net us cousins (for example) in a couple of months. Otherwise stick to the process.

That's my two cents anyways