Jeremy Lin vs FVV: who would be better as a backup PG

[Johnny Bball]

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers? This season he's at or above 50% assist%.

Chris Pauls carreer assist% is near 50%, if were using career averages.

FVV doesn't get anywhere near those numbers, if were looking at models for what a pure point looks like. I was using this season numbers for FVV, career average is worse.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/sort/assistRatio

28th and 33rd and FVV TO rate is better.

Assist ratio =//= Assist%

From your link glossary:

"Assist Ratio - the percentage of a player's possessions that ends in an assist. Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]"

The value of that stat is dependent on FGA & FTA, whereas Assist% is about how many assists a player hands out while on the floor.

Two different stats.

https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=AST_RATIO&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*7

Different ranking, same numbers.

Look at your link, assist% is listed as a different criteria than assist ratio.

Then post it, if you don't think it's the same!

[Jcity08]

Ast% & Ast ratio on two different columns. Yet they are the same stat.

[Johnny Bball]

Ast% & Ast ratio on two different columns. Yet they are the same stat.

Got it. I guess assist ratio is useless.

[Jcity08]

Ast% & Ast ratio on two different columns. Yet they are the same stat.

Got it. I guess assist ratio is useless.

I tend to think forcing a conversation where it doesn't exist is useless.

Especially when the goalposts move as often as it does in less than 3 posts.

[Johnny Bball]

Ast% & Ast ratio on two different columns. Yet they are the same stat.

Got it. I guess assist ratio is useless.

I tend to think forcing a conversation where it doesn't exist is useless.

Especially when the goalposts move as often as it does in less than 3 posts.

I"m not sure what the problem is. I wasn't trying to move the posts, I really just wasn't getting it for whatever reason tonight.

One just shows Barea shoots more compared to FVV and passing is all, which is why I use it and probably thought that's what you meant.

[steady]

.....

[PT416]

Doesn't matter. Play them both. Hit em with the LinVleet Pow OG Surge

[steady]

They will be good together.

Lin is more well rounded and experienced but FVV brings his better 3 pt shot and experience with Raptors. they will help each other

In general Lin has been an average three point shooter but this year after starting well his percentage dipped a bit

.320 NYK
.339 HOU
.358 HOU
.369 LAL
.336 CHA
.372 BKN — on 4.3 attempts per game in the 35 games in 2016-2017
This year
.333 ATL
FT .845
2 pt .535

[vini_vidi_vici]

FVV plays more like a shooting guard than a point guard though, he can barely run a PnR offense and he looks for his shot more than creating offense for others. Calling him a pure point is a little much.

His ASTr is the same as Westbrook/Rubio.

His ASTr is 25th among 238 players who played >= 20 MPG.

Hes definitely a facilitator.

To your point, hes been average in the PnR, but he was very good last yr and hes always had high volume. Im not sure what disqualifies him as a pure point.

He averages 4 assist on 20% assist%, thats prime combo guard territory. For comparison, JJ Barea is 50% assist%, a pure point guard.

FVV is not a pass first guard which is a quality I consider a pure point to have.

Why are you using AST%??

[alienchild]

It's crazy how many threads you make

Average between 1 to 6 a week, I reflected on this matter and counted. if there is a problem with that and you would like to give me a feedback about it, please PM me instead of ruining a great topic. Thanks

Baloney. On a quick count, I saw 10 of your threads in the last week. No surprise that there's the amount of blowback that comes at you. You should reflect on why the blowback comes your way instead of pleading for the board to ignore your bad habit.

[Sakkreth]

They can be played together so ultimately you don't have strictly choose one over the other.

[ATLTimekeeper]

This thread doesn't need to exist. The Raptors under Nurse/Casey have gone with two PG line-ups in their entire existence off the bench. Whether one "handles the ball more" or not is irrelevant. Fred will catch and shoot a bit more, Lin will drive to score a bit more, but they'll take turns like Delon and Fred used to, like Cory and Kyle or GV and Kyle used to. They'll play together.

And whoever is using JJ Barea's numbers this year as the primary example of a pure point is being really disingenuous because those are outlier stats. No one really touches those.

Lin averages 9.4 drives in 19.8 minutes, 51.2 FG% on 3.1 attempts and passes 46.5% of the time.
Fred averages 8.7 drives in 26.8 minutes, 38.4 FG% on 2.5 attempts and passes 57.9% of the time.

So Fred passes off the drive more than most ballhandlers. Lin passes more than most as well, but not as much as Fred, probably because he's really good at finishing off the bounce and decent at drawing fouls. They'll compliment each other well.

[UnRealGM]

[sidsid]

FVV still needs some seasoning/improvement, I am confident it will come. His shooting is his major strength. The one thing he really needs to work on is his passing, he has problems with simple routine passes getting picked off, I swear I see at least 1 a game (either an entry pass or a simple pass to someone after bringing the ball past half court). Lin is something the Raptors need now from the bench in an experienced backup, and he just has a more complete offensive game right now then FVV. Lin can get in the paint better then FVV and also makes better passes during drives as well (just general better court vision), where FVV always seems to just B-line to the basket and throw up an awkward layup. Lin seems to move better off the ball then FVV and finish better (I guess its just his size), he does turn the ball over a lot though. Over all it is good to have both and utilize both their strengths.

I'd say a pretty good summary, with a few points I'd add:

His court vision isn't likely to improve much. It's definitely one of those skills you either have or you don't. You can implement systems where players are put into easier playmaking roles (think DeRozan in SA, Kyrie in Boston, FVV in last year's system), but those are just building on simple reads. For example, Fred has gotten better at hitting Ibaka on that simple, open pick and pop, but he is no closer to hitting the roll man in those tight windows.

His finishing ability is limited in the same sense that Lowry's is: physical limitations. Lowry has a few tools that FVV doesn't, like his strength on the drive, but that Superman layup he does is something that could help FVV. Besides that, FVV already has a bunch of skills that would help a bigger, more athletic guard finish - a hesitation dribble, change of direction, look-offs - but when the defense is keyed on him (as it is when he's in a simple two man game) those just don't create openings for him.

He needs things like last year's ball movement system, which kept defenders occupied on other action that didn't include him and kept it on it's heels. Or this year when he's in the off-ball role and no one is paying attention to him. He can exploit openings when they are there, he just can't create them for himself.

Which feeds into another one of his strengths: when he's not pressured he takes care of the ball well. Makes the correct, simple read to make a play.

Off-ball combo guard is his skillset, and he's useful when put in that role.

[vesku888]

This thread doesn't need to exist. The Raptors under Nurse/Casey have gone with two PG line-ups in their entire existence off the bench. Whether one "handles the ball more" or not is irrelevant. Fred will catch and shoot a bit more, Lin will drive to score a bit more, but they'll take turns like Delon and Fred used to, like Cory and Kyle or GV and Kyle used to. They'll play together.

And whoever is using JJ Barea's numbers this year as the primary example of a pure point is being really disingenuous because those are outlier stats. No one really touches those.

Lin averages 9.4 drives in 19.8 minutes, 51.2 FG% on 3.1 attempts and passes 46.5% of the time.
Fred averages 8.7 drives in 26.8 minutes, 38.4 FG% on 2.5 attempts and passes 57.9% of the time.

So Fred passes off the drive more than most ballhandlers. Lin passes more than most as well, but not as much as Fred, probably because he's really good at finishing off the bounce and decent at drawing fouls. They'll compliment each other well.

Along with every other thread gloryhole has made

[dukes_wild]

FVV is better

[hsb]

So Fred passes off the drive more than most ballhandlers. Lin passes more than most as well, but not as much as Fred, probably because he's really good at finishing off the bounce and decent at drawing fouls. They'll compliment each other well.

Fred does this thing where he drives, ends up on the other side, gets stuck and finds someone to pass the ball to because he has nowhere else to go. He does that more than most point guards, even on this team where Lowry, Cojo and Delon don't/didn't get stuck so much looking for bailout passes after drives.

If this scenario is also considered passing off a drive then I'll just throw away that data set because it's incorporating a lot of garbage.

[NeoDragonKnight]

FVV still needs some seasoning/improvement, I am confident it will come. His shooting is his major strength. The one thing he really needs to work on is his passing, he has problems with simple routine passes getting picked off, I swear I see at least 1 a game (either an entry pass or a simple pass to someone after bringing the ball past half court). Lin is something the Raptors need now from the bench in an experienced backup, and he just has a more complete offensive game right now then FVV. Lin can get in the paint better then FVV and also makes better passes during drives as well (just general better court vision), where FVV always seems to just B-line to the basket and throw up an awkward layup. Lin seems to move better off the ball then FVV and finish better (I guess its just his size), he does turn the ball over a lot though. Over all it is good to have both and utilize both their strengths.

I'd say a pretty good summary, with a few points I'd add:

His court vision isn't likely to improve much. It's definitely one of those skills you either have or you don't. You can implement systems where players are put into easier playmaking roles (think DeRozan in SA, Kyrie in Boston, FVV in last year's system), but those are just building on simple reads. For example, Fred has gotten better at hitting Ibaka on that simple, open pick and pop, but he is no closer to hitting the roll man in those tight windows.

His finishing ability is limited in the same sense that Lowry's is: physical limitations. Lowry has a few tools that FVV doesn't, like his strength on the drive, but that Superman layup he does is something that could help FVV. Besides that, FVV already has a bunch of skills that would help a bigger, more athletic guard finish - a hesitation dribble, change of direction, look-offs - but when the defense is keyed on him (as it is when he's in a simple two man game) those just don't create openings for him.

He needs things like last year's ball movement system, which kept defenders occupied on other action that didn't include him and kept it on it's heels. Or this year when he's in the off-ball role and no one is paying attention to him. He can exploit openings when they are there, he just can't create them for himself.

Which feeds into another one of his strengths: when he's not pressured he takes care of the ball well. Makes the correct, simple read to make a play.

Off-ball combo guard is his skillset, and he's useful when put in that role.

I am hoping he will improve with the PnR as you said. When Lowry first came to the Raptors he couldn't run the pick and roll for his life, I remember lamenting that and how Calderon was much better at it. Even when Amir was here, who was very good at the PnR. But he did slowly get better at it, though he did not become great at it until last year, and more evident this year after the Demar trade and he was force to feed JV.

[ATLTimekeeper]

So Fred passes off the drive more than most ballhandlers. Lin passes more than most as well, but not as much as Fred, probably because he's really good at finishing off the bounce and decent at drawing fouls. They'll compliment each other well.

Fred does this thing where he drives, ends up on the other side, gets stuck and finds someone to pass the ball to because he has nowhere else to go. He does that more than most point guards, even on this team where Lowry, Cojo and Delon don't/didn't get stuck so much looking for bailout passes after drives.

If this scenario is also considered passing off a drive then I'll just throw away that data set because it's incorporating a lot of garbage.

That doesn't happen that much. One man getting trapped is another man's throwing the ball off the top corner of the backboard, I guess.

[sidsid]

So Fred passes off the drive more than most ballhandlers. Lin passes more than most as well, but not as much as Fred, probably because he's really good at finishing off the bounce and decent at drawing fouls. They'll compliment each other well.

Fred does this thing where he drives, ends up on the other side, gets stuck and finds someone to pass the ball to because he has nowhere else to go. He does that more than most point guards, even on this team where Lowry, Cojo and Delon don't/didn't get stuck so much looking for bailout passes after drives.

If this scenario is also considered passing off a drive then I'll just throw away that data set because it's incorporating a lot of garbage.

I was going to say I don't know which stat would accurately depict a player's failure rate in the PnR (i.e. a bailout kickout), but that combo seems to be it in a nutshell. Supports what we can see as the issue on the court.

The full stat breakdowns I'd want for an FVV analysis is the stats where he's leading the bench vs. the stats where he's the fifth starter. I'd assume it would be night and day on positive impact across the board.