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Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0

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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#621 » by SHFT » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:33 pm

Senbonzakura wrote:
SHFT wrote:
Senbonzakura wrote:
What the **** are you talking about?

Lowry is averaging 20-7-5 on 58 TS% with a 116 oRTG and playing great defense. He's not a clear-cut 2nd guy? He's a better player than Aldridge.


lol chill out. Lowry is killing it but, historically, his game is not putting up 20+ ppg. I love that he recognizes that we need the scoring punch and is able to switch it up so quickly but unlike LMA, its not the primary part of his game. Lowry is a superstud on his own because he does everything else. When Lowry is scoring like this, he gets into another gear all together.

Never said he was worse than LMA lol.

Finally, the main point I was making is it does not surprise me at all that Demar (a polished and seasoned offensive player) is having a more efficient year than Pascal (whose story we all know by heart right now).


Lowry has averaged over 20ppg twice during his time with the Raptors prior to this year, and about 18ppg for his entire time here. So again, you're chatting absolute ****. His scoring dipped last year because he was relegated to being the 3rd option and Kawhi took on a huge portion of the offensive load.


lol.

First of all, Lowry's numbers this year are 20ppg shooting 41/34/85. He is scoring 20ppg because he is being forced to because other than Pascal, we dont have a guy. He is shooting 41% from the feild and 34% so if you want to talk legit scoring options, you can plainly see its not very efficient.

The % from the feild is just plain bad, the 3% is passable due to the volume and timing of some his shots. ANNNNNYBODY else that doesnt contribute in ALL the OTHER aspects Lowry crushes it in, would absolutely get crucified by this board when that player is making 30M$.

Second of all, Lowry averaging 20ppg 2 other times in his career as a secondary scorer has gotten us exactly where? Please tell me. On top of that, those 2 years you are referring to are 2014-2015 and 2015-2016. Almost 5 years ago. When he was 28 and 29 and not when he is 33 as he is right now.

Lowry, by his nature, is not a guy you want as a secondary scorer precisely because he is so elite at everything else, you would rather he stick to the "everything else" and dial back his scoring while upping his efficiency. We dont have that luxury atm hench Kyle shooting way more.

His scoring dipped last year because he was relegated to being the 3rd option and Kawhi took on a huge portion of the offensive load.


I dont understand if you are arguing with me or yourself lol because this is my point. Last year Kyle is the elite Kyle. He doesnt have to worry about putting up 20ppg and can facilitate an established # 1 option like Kawhi and a blossoming option in Pascal all while driving the car and directing the troops. For what feels like the 10th time, we dont have that luxury right now, hence Kyle being forced to shoot more.

And AGAIN, my main point was its not surprising Demar is having a more efficient year than Pascal. You made it about Lowry and are trying to put words into my mouth, and then arguing those words. So you are basically arguing with yourself and while I cant lie, its fascinating, it doesnt mean much to my point.
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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#622 » by Senbonzakura » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:55 pm

SHFT wrote:
Senbonzakura wrote:
SHFT wrote:
lol chill out. Lowry is killing it but, historically, his game is not putting up 20+ ppg. I love that he recognizes that we need the scoring punch and is able to switch it up so quickly but unlike LMA, its not the primary part of his game. Lowry is a superstud on his own because he does everything else. When Lowry is scoring like this, he gets into another gear all together.

Never said he was worse than LMA lol.

Finally, the main point I was making is it does not surprise me at all that Demar (a polished and seasoned offensive player) is having a more efficient year than Pascal (whose story we all know by heart right now).


Lowry has averaged over 20ppg twice during his time with the Raptors prior to this year, and about 18ppg for his entire time here. So again, you're chatting absolute ****. His scoring dipped last year because he was relegated to being the 3rd option and Kawhi took on a huge portion of the offensive load.


lol.

First of all, Lowry's numbers this year are 20ppg shooting 41/34/85. He is scoring 20ppg because he is being forced to because other than Pascal, we dont have a guy. He is shooting 41% from the feild and 34% so if you want to talk legit scoring options, you can plainly see its not very efficient.

The % from the feild is just plain bad, the 3% is passable due to the volume and timing of some his shots. ANNNNNYBODY else that doesnt contribute in ALL the OTHER aspects Lowry crushes it in, would absolutely get crucified by this board when that player is making 30M$.

Second of all, Lowry averaging 20ppg 2 other times in his career as a secondary scorer has gotten us exactly where? Please tell me. On top of that, those 2 years you are referring to are 2014-2015 and 2015-2016. Almost 5 years ago. When he was 28 and 29 and not when he is 33 as he is right now.

Lowry, by his nature, is not a guy you want as a secondary scorer precisely because he is so elite at everything else, you would rather he stick to the "everything else" and dial back his scoring while upping his efficiency. We dont have that luxury atm hench Kyle shooting way more.

His scoring dipped last year because he was relegated to being the 3rd option and Kawhi took on a huge portion of the offensive load.


I dont understand if you are arguing with me or yourself lol because this is my point. Last year Kyle is the elite Kyle. He doesnt have to worry about putting up 20ppg and can facilitate an established # 1 option like Kawhi and a blossoming option in Pascal all while driving the car and directing the troops. For what feels like the 10th time, we dont have that luxury right now, hence Kyle being forced to shoot more.

And AGAIN, my main point was its not surprising Demar is having a more efficient year than Pascal. You made it about Lowry and are trying to put words into my mouth, and then arguing those words. So you are basically arguing with yourself and while I cant lie, its fascinating, it doesnt mean much to my point.


You've rendered your entire point useless from jump. His TS% is 58%. I don't care what the individual breakdown is in counting percentages, he's scoring the ball efficiently (more efficiently than Siakam I might add) and scoring 20ppg. Only a **** idiot would think that's not a viable #2 option yet somehow Aldridge (19ppg on 59 TS%) is.
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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#623 » by SHFT » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:09 pm

Senbonzakura wrote:
SHFT wrote:
Senbonzakura wrote:
Lowry has averaged over 20ppg twice during his time with the Raptors prior to this year, and about 18ppg for his entire time here. So again, you're chatting absolute ****. His scoring dipped last year because he was relegated to being the 3rd option and Kawhi took on a huge portion of the offensive load.


lol.

First of all, Lowry's numbers this year are 20ppg shooting 41/34/85. He is scoring 20ppg because he is being forced to because other than Pascal, we dont have a guy. He is shooting 41% from the feild and 34% so if you want to talk legit scoring options, you can plainly see its not very efficient.

The % from the feild is just plain bad, the 3% is passable due to the volume and timing of some his shots. ANNNNNYBODY else that doesnt contribute in ALL the OTHER aspects Lowry crushes it in, would absolutely get crucified by this board when that player is making 30M$.

Second of all, Lowry averaging 20ppg 2 other times in his career as a secondary scorer has gotten us exactly where? Please tell me. On top of that, those 2 years you are referring to are 2014-2015 and 2015-2016. Almost 5 years ago. When he was 28 and 29 and not when he is 33 as he is right now.

Lowry, by his nature, is not a guy you want as a secondary scorer precisely because he is so elite at everything else, you would rather he stick to the "everything else" and dial back his scoring while upping his efficiency. We dont have that luxury atm hench Kyle shooting way more.

His scoring dipped last year because he was relegated to being the 3rd option and Kawhi took on a huge portion of the offensive load.


I dont understand if you are arguing with me or yourself lol because this is my point. Last year Kyle is the elite Kyle. He doesnt have to worry about putting up 20ppg and can facilitate an established # 1 option like Kawhi and a blossoming option in Pascal all while driving the car and directing the troops. For what feels like the 10th time, we dont have that luxury right now, hence Kyle being forced to shoot more.

And AGAIN, my main point was its not surprising Demar is having a more efficient year than Pascal. You made it about Lowry and are trying to put words into my mouth, and then arguing those words. So you are basically arguing with yourself and while I cant lie, its fascinating, it doesnt mean much to my point.


You've rendered your entire point useless from jump. His TS% is 58%. I don't care what the individual breakdown is in counting percentages, he's scoring the ball efficiently (more efficiently than Siakam I might add) and scoring 20ppg. Only a **** idiot would think that's not a viable #2 option yet somehow Aldridge (19ppg on 59 TS%) is.


no dude I didnt. My only point was I get Demar is having a more efficient season than Pascal.

I provided a few reasons why and you only took one and ran with it like it was the only thing I said (for whatever reason, maybe you need a hug).

If you knew how to read, you will have read I have no idea how Aldridge is doing this year. I will say LMA has had like 7 years of putting up 20+ ppg, some of those years as a number 1 option. In 4 totally different years, he put up 18+. He has like a whole decade of averaging 20ppg. So, history tells us that LMA's game is more of a scorer than Lowry's is. Did I saw LMA is better? Can you quote me saying that? Of course you cant because I never did. See how that works?

No response to our recent struggles with Kyle as a # 2 option? As in basically every single year except last year? As in 3 sweeps, 1 at the hands of an objectively inferior Wizards team? I didnt think so. Now before you put more words into my mouth, none of those fall solely on Kyle's shoulders BUT they did happen while he was the # 2 option which AGAIN, tells us he is better as a 3rd scoring option. Scoring, as in putting ball in bucket, not as in it is the only thing that matters when evaluating a player.

Children usually just scream at the top of their lungs and refuse to listen. Maybe work on that?
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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#624 » by Courtside » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:35 pm

SHFT wrote:
Senbonzakura wrote:
SHFT wrote:
lol.

First of all, Lowry's numbers this year are 20ppg shooting 41/34/85. He is scoring 20ppg because he is being forced to because other than Pascal, we dont have a guy. He is shooting 41% from the feild and 34% so if you want to talk legit scoring options, you can plainly see its not very efficient.

The % from the feild is just plain bad, the 3% is passable due to the volume and timing of some his shots. ANNNNNYBODY else that doesnt contribute in ALL the OTHER aspects Lowry crushes it in, would absolutely get crucified by this board when that player is making 30M$.

Second of all, Lowry averaging 20ppg 2 other times in his career as a secondary scorer has gotten us exactly where? Please tell me. On top of that, those 2 years you are referring to are 2014-2015 and 2015-2016. Almost 5 years ago. When he was 28 and 29 and not when he is 33 as he is right now.

Lowry, by his nature, is not a guy you want as a secondary scorer precisely because he is so elite at everything else, you would rather he stick to the "everything else" and dial back his scoring while upping his efficiency. We dont have that luxury atm hench Kyle shooting way more.



I dont understand if you are arguing with me or yourself lol because this is my point. Last year Kyle is the elite Kyle. He doesnt have to worry about putting up 20ppg and can facilitate an established # 1 option like Kawhi and a blossoming option in Pascal all while driving the car and directing the troops. For what feels like the 10th time, we dont have that luxury right now, hence Kyle being forced to shoot more.

And AGAIN, my main point was its not surprising Demar is having a more efficient year than Pascal. You made it about Lowry and are trying to put words into my mouth, and then arguing those words. So you are basically arguing with yourself and while I cant lie, its fascinating, it doesnt mean much to my point.


You've rendered your entire point useless from jump. His TS% is 58%. I don't care what the individual breakdown is in counting percentages, he's scoring the ball efficiently (more efficiently than Siakam I might add) and scoring 20ppg. Only a **** idiot would think that's not a viable #2 option yet somehow Aldridge (19ppg on 59 TS%) is.


no dude I didnt. My only point was I get Demar is having a more efficient season than Pascal.

I provided a few reasons why and you only took one and ran with it like it was the only thing I said (for whatever reason, maybe you need a hug).

If you knew how to read, you will have read I have no idea how Aldridge is doing this year. I will say LMA has had like 7 years of putting up 20+ ppg, some of those years as a number 1 option. In 4 totally different years, he put up 18+. He has like a whole decade of averaging 20ppg. So, history tells us that LMA's game is more of a scorer than Lowry's is. Did I saw LMA is better? Can you quote me saying that? Of course you cant because I never did. See how that works?

No response to our recent struggles with Kyle as a # 2 option? As in basically every single year except last year? As in 3 sweeps, 1 at the hands of an objectively inferior Wizards team? I didnt think so. Now before you put more words into my mouth, none of those fall solely on Kyle's shoulders BUT they did happen while he was the # 2 option which AGAIN, tells us he is better as a 3rd scoring option. Scoring, as in putting ball in bucket, not as in it is the only thing that matters when evaluating a player.

Children usually just scream at the top of their lungs and refuse to listen. Maybe work on that?


You're right with almost everything about Senbonzakura, but the last paragraph is where things fall apart.

Kyle was and is a fine #2/3 option and was throughout his time here. Our failures in the 5 seasons pre Kawhi weren't because Kyle wasn't an adequate #2, they were because our #1 guy through the entire 82 game season performed like an 11th man in most of the playoff games he played, making it difficult to win in every early series we were ever in, and ultimately impossible for Kyle and the rest of the team to carry us through the later rounds. Replace Demar with a Spurs era Danny Green playing good 3+D in those series and we would have done better as a team.

It cannot be understated how badly our #1 guy sandbagged our chances once the playoffs began, so it's not fair to use those failures as proof that Kyle is not an adequate #2.
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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#625 » by Kabookalu » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:01 pm

Courtside wrote:
SHFT wrote:
Senbonzakura wrote:
You've rendered your entire point useless from jump. His TS% is 58%. I don't care what the individual breakdown is in counting percentages, he's scoring the ball efficiently (more efficiently than Siakam I might add) and scoring 20ppg. Only a **** idiot would think that's not a viable #2 option yet somehow Aldridge (19ppg on 59 TS%) is.


no dude I didnt. My only point was I get Demar is having a more efficient season than Pascal.

I provided a few reasons why and you only took one and ran with it like it was the only thing I said (for whatever reason, maybe you need a hug).

If you knew how to read, you will have read I have no idea how Aldridge is doing this year. I will say LMA has had like 7 years of putting up 20+ ppg, some of those years as a number 1 option. In 4 totally different years, he put up 18+. He has like a whole decade of averaging 20ppg. So, history tells us that LMA's game is more of a scorer than Lowry's is. Did I saw LMA is better? Can you quote me saying that? Of course you cant because I never did. See how that works?

No response to our recent struggles with Kyle as a # 2 option? As in basically every single year except last year? As in 3 sweeps, 1 at the hands of an objectively inferior Wizards team? I didnt think so. Now before you put more words into my mouth, none of those fall solely on Kyle's shoulders BUT they did happen while he was the # 2 option which AGAIN, tells us he is better as a 3rd scoring option. Scoring, as in putting ball in bucket, not as in it is the only thing that matters when evaluating a player.

Children usually just scream at the top of their lungs and refuse to listen. Maybe work on that?


You're right with almost everything about Senbonzakura, but the last paragraph is where things fall apart.

Kyle was and is a fine #2/3 option and was throughout his time here. Our failures in the 5 seasons pre Kawhi weren't because Kyle wasn't an adequate #2, they were because our #1 guy through the entire 82 game season performed like an 11th man in most of the playoff games he played, making it difficult to win in every early series we were ever in, and ultimately impossible for Kyle and the rest of the team to carry us through the later rounds. Replace Demar with a Spurs era Danny Green playing good 3+D in those series and we would have done better as a team.

It cannot be understated how badly our #1 guy sandbagged our chances once the playoffs began, so it's not fair to use those failures as proof that Kyle is not an adequate #2.


This has always been overstated here. There's this stigma around here that DeMar only performs well in the regular season, yet I remember when we'd go toe to toe with the best teams in the league while DeMar is shooting 1-12. DeMar's poor shooting nights never explained why Lowry would be so passive and our roster was so frightened to even touch the ball against the lower seeds in the postseason. We didn't have DeRozan in the past playoffs, yet what I saw in that Sixers series was the same typical scared lethargic Raptors I'm used to seeing in the playoffs. Kawhi dragged that team to a series victory, and barely at that. Lowry had a poor series despite Kawhi playing like Michael Jordan.

People always understate Casey's role in those playoff failures. Fred even said that Casey has his set plans, and doesn't deviate from that. His solution is to practice those sets even harder. Yet when the playoffs roll around Casey panics and goes against his own principles, forming lineups together that literally have never played together. I know Coach Nick hammered Casey on this in his breakdowns of the Raptors. The staple of those Casey coached teams was its synergy and hustle. Casey destroyed the best aspect of it with his knee jerk moves.

We're now seeing what DeMar could do under a real coach. And we got a brief glimpse of what Rudy Gay was capable of too. He's washed up now but Gay last year looked like a great rotation player that any winning team would love to have. The key is that Gay and DeMar aren't settling for braindead jumpers anymore, they're operating closer to the bucket. Casey gave them free reign to hoist up shots they were incapable of making consistently.
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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#626 » by Courtside » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:18 pm

Kabookalu wrote:
Courtside wrote:
SHFT wrote:
no dude I didnt. My only point was I get Demar is having a more efficient season than Pascal.

I provided a few reasons why and you only took one and ran with it like it was the only thing I said (for whatever reason, maybe you need a hug).

If you knew how to read, you will have read I have no idea how Aldridge is doing this year. I will say LMA has had like 7 years of putting up 20+ ppg, some of those years as a number 1 option. In 4 totally different years, he put up 18+. He has like a whole decade of averaging 20ppg. So, history tells us that LMA's game is more of a scorer than Lowry's is. Did I saw LMA is better? Can you quote me saying that? Of course you cant because I never did. See how that works?

No response to our recent struggles with Kyle as a # 2 option? As in basically every single year except last year? As in 3 sweeps, 1 at the hands of an objectively inferior Wizards team? I didnt think so. Now before you put more words into my mouth, none of those fall solely on Kyle's shoulders BUT they did happen while he was the # 2 option which AGAIN, tells us he is better as a 3rd scoring option. Scoring, as in putting ball in bucket, not as in it is the only thing that matters when evaluating a player.

Children usually just scream at the top of their lungs and refuse to listen. Maybe work on that?


You're right with almost everything about Senbonzakura, but the last paragraph is where things fall apart.

Kyle was and is a fine #2/3 option and was throughout his time here. Our failures in the 5 seasons pre Kawhi weren't because Kyle wasn't an adequate #2, they were because our #1 guy through the entire 82 game season performed like an 11th man in most of the playoff games he played, making it difficult to win in every early series we were ever in, and ultimately impossible for Kyle and the rest of the team to carry us through the later rounds. Replace Demar with a Spurs era Danny Green playing good 3+D in those series and we would have done better as a team.

It cannot be understated how badly our #1 guy sandbagged our chances once the playoffs began, so it's not fair to use those failures as proof that Kyle is not an adequate #2.


This has always been overstated here. There's this stigma around here that DeMar only performs well in the regular season, yet I remember when we'd go toe to toe with the best teams in the league while DeMar is shooting 1-12. DeMar's poor shooting nights never explained why Lowry would be so passive and our roster was so frightened to even touch the ball against the lower seeds in the postseason. We didn't have DeRozan in the past playoffs, yet what I saw in that Sixers series was the same typical scared lethargic Raptors I'm used to seeing in the playoffs. Kawhi dragged that team to a series victory, and barely at that. Lowry had a poor series despite Kawhi playing like Michael Jordan.

People always understate Casey's role in those playoff failures. Fred even said that Casey has his set plans, and doesn't deviate from that. His solution is to practice those sets even harder. Yet when the playoffs roll around Casey panics and goes against his own principles, forming lineups together that literally have never played together. I know Coach Nick hammered Casey on this in his breakdowns of the Raptors. The staple of those Casey coached teams was its synergy and hustle. Casey destroyed the best aspect of it with his knee jerk moves.

We're now seeing what DeMar could do under a real coach. And we got a brief glimpse of what Rudy Gay was capable of too. He's washed up now but Gay last year looked like a great rotation player that any winning team would love to have. The key is that Gay and DeMar aren't settling for braindead jumpers anymore, they're operating closer to the bucket. Casey gave them free reign to hoist up shots they were incapable of making consistently.


You're right. I failed to include Casey in the discussion about our failures, and he was at least as responsible for them as Demar was. Casey's hands were tied somewhat as he was a loyal (stubborn) dude who stuck to what worked during the regular season expecting it to continue working in the playoffs, and it never worked. This is what undid Budenholzer and the Bucks last year, while Nurse adjusted and we ultimately overcame.

Making Demar such a dominant part of our scoring and excusing the defensive side was a really bad plan by Casey. Demar has changed for the better under Pop, and was far more consistent in the playoffs last year than he ever was with us. Can that be solely attributed to the coaching change, though, or was a lot of it a response by Demar to the feeling (reality) that his former team was making him "pay the price" (his words) for their playoff failures? If he was traded to the Lakers or Clippers or Magic or whoever, and was determined to be better in the playoffs, it's possible he could have been.

Casey and Demar *both* were in over their heads, but in Casey's defense, what coach can ever overcome that much of a performance drop by their #1 scoring option, who not only craters in terms of scoring, but basically becomes unplayable in every other aspect once that goes? What team has ever gone for 50+ wins in successive seasons and then benched their "star" as the best adjustment to get the most out of the team?
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#627 » by hsb » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:10 pm

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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#628 » by SHFT » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:17 pm

Courtside wrote:
SHFT wrote:
Senbonzakura wrote:
You've rendered your entire point useless from jump. His TS% is 58%. I don't care what the individual breakdown is in counting percentages, he's scoring the ball efficiently (more efficiently than Siakam I might add) and scoring 20ppg. Only a **** idiot would think that's not a viable #2 option yet somehow Aldridge (19ppg on 59 TS%) is.


no dude I didnt. My only point was I get Demar is having a more efficient season than Pascal.

I provided a few reasons why and you only took one and ran with it like it was the only thing I said (for whatever reason, maybe you need a hug).

If you knew how to read, you will have read I have no idea how Aldridge is doing this year. I will say LMA has had like 7 years of putting up 20+ ppg, some of those years as a number 1 option. In 4 totally different years, he put up 18+. He has like a whole decade of averaging 20ppg. So, history tells us that LMA's game is more of a scorer than Lowry's is. Did I saw LMA is better? Can you quote me saying that? Of course you cant because I never did. See how that works?

No response to our recent struggles with Kyle as a # 2 option? As in basically every single year except last year? As in 3 sweeps, 1 at the hands of an objectively inferior Wizards team? I didnt think so. Now before you put more words into my mouth, none of those fall solely on Kyle's shoulders BUT they did happen while he was the # 2 option which AGAIN, tells us he is better as a 3rd scoring option. Scoring, as in putting ball in bucket, not as in it is the only thing that matters when evaluating a player.

Children usually just scream at the top of their lungs and refuse to listen. Maybe work on that?


You're right with almost everything about Senbonzakura, but the last paragraph is where things fall apart.

Kyle was and is a fine #2/3 option and was throughout his time here. Our failures in the 5 seasons pre Kawhi weren't because Kyle wasn't an adequate #2, they were because our #1 guy through the entire 82 game season performed like an 11th man in most of the playoff games he played, making it difficult to win in every early series we were ever in, and ultimately impossible for Kyle and the rest of the team to carry us through the later rounds. Replace Demar with a Spurs era Danny Green playing good 3+D in those series and we would have done better as a team.

It cannot be understated how badly our #1 guy sandbagged our chances once the playoffs began, so it's not fair to use those failures as proof that Kyle is not an adequate #2.


Replace Demar with a Spurs era Danny Green playing good 3+D in those series and we would have done better as a team.

It cannot be understated how badly our #1 guy sandbagged our chances once the playoffs began,


Im not saying kyle cannot be relied on to score, its just not his primary game but yeah citing those playoffs was a reach and I do know it fell way more on Demar (and Casey) than it did Kyle but they were considered our holy trinity so to speak so its all I had with respect to Kyle's sample size as a #2 option.

Fair enough.
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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#629 » by Kabookalu » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Courtside wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
Courtside wrote:
You're right with almost everything about Senbonzakura, but the last paragraph is where things fall apart.

Kyle was and is a fine #2/3 option and was throughout his time here. Our failures in the 5 seasons pre Kawhi weren't because Kyle wasn't an adequate #2, they were because our #1 guy through the entire 82 game season performed like an 11th man in most of the playoff games he played, making it difficult to win in every early series we were ever in, and ultimately impossible for Kyle and the rest of the team to carry us through the later rounds. Replace Demar with a Spurs era Danny Green playing good 3+D in those series and we would have done better as a team.

It cannot be understated how badly our #1 guy sandbagged our chances once the playoffs began, so it's not fair to use those failures as proof that Kyle is not an adequate #2.


This has always been overstated here. There's this stigma around here that DeMar only performs well in the regular season, yet I remember when we'd go toe to toe with the best teams in the league while DeMar is shooting 1-12. DeMar's poor shooting nights never explained why Lowry would be so passive and our roster was so frightened to even touch the ball against the lower seeds in the postseason. We didn't have DeRozan in the past playoffs, yet what I saw in that Sixers series was the same typical scared lethargic Raptors I'm used to seeing in the playoffs. Kawhi dragged that team to a series victory, and barely at that. Lowry had a poor series despite Kawhi playing like Michael Jordan.

People always understate Casey's role in those playoff failures. Fred even said that Casey has his set plans, and doesn't deviate from that. His solution is to practice those sets even harder. Yet when the playoffs roll around Casey panics and goes against his own principles, forming lineups together that literally have never played together. I know Coach Nick hammered Casey on this in his breakdowns of the Raptors. The staple of those Casey coached teams was its synergy and hustle. Casey destroyed the best aspect of it with his knee jerk moves.

We're now seeing what DeMar could do under a real coach. And we got a brief glimpse of what Rudy Gay was capable of too. He's washed up now but Gay last year looked like a great rotation player that any winning team would love to have. The key is that Gay and DeMar aren't settling for braindead jumpers anymore, they're operating closer to the bucket. Casey gave them free reign to hoist up shots they were incapable of making consistently.


You're right. I failed to include Casey in the discussion about our failures, and he was at least as responsible for them as Demar was. Casey's hands were tied somewhat as he was a loyal (stubborn) dude who stuck to what worked during the regular season expecting it to continue working in the playoffs, and it never worked. This is what undid Budenholzer and the Bucks last year, while Nurse adjusted and we ultimately overcame.

Making Demar such a dominant part of our scoring and excusing the defensive side was a really bad plan by Casey. Demar has changed for the better under Pop, and was far more consistent in the playoffs last year than he ever was with us. Can that be solely attributed to the coaching change, though, or was a lot of it a response by Demar to the feeling (reality) that his former team was making him "pay the price" (his words) for their playoff failures? If he was traded to the Lakers or Clippers or Magic or whoever, and was determined to be better in the playoffs, it's possible he could have been.

Casey and Demar *both* were in over their heads, but in Casey's defense, what coach can ever overcome that much of a performance drop by their #1 scoring option, who not only craters in terms of scoring, but basically becomes unplayable in every other aspect once that goes? What team has ever gone for 50+ wins in successive seasons and then benched their "star" as the best adjustment to get the most out of the team?


That's the thing about Casey, he's stubborn and sticks with his same rotations and plans...during the regular season. However in the playoffs he's all of a sudden experimenting with plays and lineups. And to his credit, the adjustments he's made were actually pretty good in isolation. But, the team was never ready for it since they weren't ever conditioned to change up their routine. They stuck with the same patterns game in game out, and all of a sudden Casey pulls the rug out on them when it actually matters most. Whatever chemistry that he spent the regular season developing, gets wiped out in an instant.

And this is why I've always identified Casey as the biggest culprit for those playoff failures. He panics and sequence breaks his team and has them doing things they're ill prepared for. Some of those games felt like the team was playing with each other for the first time. Everyone either plays timid or too aggressive. That 2015 season was the most painful I've ever experienced as a fan, just because it was obvious 1/3rd through the season whatever Casey was running no longer worked. Yet he stuck with his gameplan, and we freefalled in the second half of the season, and got swept in horrifying fashion.

And to be clear, DeMar isn't blameless. Unfair or not as the first option he's tasked with carrying the load whenever his teammates are wavering long enough until they can get back on their feet. Lowry was bad against the Sixers, but was fantastic against Milwaukee. Kawhi sponged whatever responsibilities Siakam and Lowry slacked on. DeMar was about the worst player for this task. Though as I said, the team was able to stomach his poor performances against the elites in the regular season with their synergy, hustle, and Kyle Lowry's superstar impact. Then in the playoffs Casey's panicking evaporated all that was good about the team.

I've actually defended Casey's coaching here plenty of times too. I much prefer Nick Nurse's approach of preparing his team for changing circumstances, however I get the idea behind Casey's philosophy of taking one thing, and becoming a master at it. Though during the playoffs he stopped believing in his own principles.




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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#630 » by BillyGM » Tue Feb 4, 2020 3:13 am

JV 26 pts 17 rebs 2 ast 4 blk

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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#631 » by Johnny Bball » Tue Feb 4, 2020 3:59 am

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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#632 » by lobosloboslobos » Tue Feb 4, 2020 4:03 am

Courtside wrote:
Casey and Demar *both* were in over their heads, but in Casey's defense, what coach can ever overcome that much of a performance drop by their #1 scoring option, who not only craters in terms of scoring, but basically becomes unplayable in every other aspect once that goes? What team has ever gone for 50+ wins in successive seasons and then benched their "star" as the best adjustment to get the most out of the team?


Nope. Casey essentially created Demar's game by never making him develop his 3 ball, by never making him be a distributor, by force feeding him 25-30 shots a game, by stagnating our entire offence so DD could iso endlessly, by never holding him publicly accountable for even his worst performances, by never developing a more balanced scoring strategy to relieve some of the pressure and defensive focus on DD, and by never ever strategizing effectively in the playoffs. and that list is just off the top of my head. there is no way you put this more on DD than Casey. the proof is in the pudding now with how much better a player he has become under Pop.
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Re: DeRozan is Shooting over 60 TS% 

Post#633 » by hsb » Tue Feb 4, 2020 4:24 am

lobosloboslobos wrote:
Courtside wrote:
Casey and Demar *both* were in over their heads, but in Casey's defense, what coach can ever overcome that much of a performance drop by their #1 scoring option, who not only craters in terms of scoring, but basically becomes unplayable in every other aspect once that goes? What team has ever gone for 50+ wins in successive seasons and then benched their "star" as the best adjustment to get the most out of the team?


Nope. Casey essentially created Demar's game by never making him develop his 3 ball, by never making him be a distributor, by force feeding him 25-30 shots a game, by stagnating our entire offence so DD could iso endlessly, by never holding him publicly accountable for even his worst performances, by never developing a more balanced scoring strategy to relieve some of the pressure and defensive focus on DD, and by never ever strategizing effectively in the playoffs. and that list is just off the top of my head. there is no way you put this more on DD than Casey. the proof is in the pudding now with how much better a player he has become under Pop.


It's kind of amazing to see DD as a passer this season. He knows where the players are and can make the right pass to the corner at will.

Forget a second that Lowry's body couldn't handle being a primary scorer for an entire season and Casey just kept hammering that hierarchy for some dumb reason, but he used to be a player before culture reset where he would regularly pass to players' feet or off the mark (most noticeable when he's on the move). Look at him after a few years after culture reset as a passer - he's now making perfect passes from anywhere on the floor.

DD and Lowry were never players that should be at the top of a rigid scoring hierarchy, but the annoying thing was that they clearly had the skill to grow their game in a more team-oriented way offensively.

Casey deserves so much blame for limiting that growth, but you know who else deserves blame for this point? Masai.

I was listening to the Zach Lowe podcast and Windhorst mentioned something along the line that Masai acknowledged he had unrealistic expectations for past teams. It took him way too long to realize the obvious problems of Casey's system/ways and the culture reset discussion evidently happened way too late. Masai clearly redeemed himself afterwards, but those years were excruciating and Lowry/DD had the skill to play a better style of basketball.
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#634 » by mtcan » Tue Feb 4, 2020 4:29 am

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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#635 » by Alfred » Tue Feb 4, 2020 4:35 am

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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#636 » by Alfred » Tue Feb 4, 2020 4:55 am



JV loves playing against Drummond.
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#637 » by VanWest82 » Tue Feb 4, 2020 5:21 am

JV still got the best of Drummond tonight...some things never change
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#638 » by Kingsway_fan » Tue Feb 4, 2020 5:30 am

Jv with another monster game.... would love to see them take on the lakers round one.. playoff JV will be a monster....

Guy deserves the biggest ovation from rap fans when they play in toronto... all class.
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#639 » by cruwinas » Tue Feb 4, 2020 4:37 pm

Kingsway_fan wrote:Jv with another monster game.... would love to see them take on the lakers round one.. playoff JV will be a monster....

Guy deserves the biggest ovation from rap fans when they play in toronto... all class.


Since JV was drafted in 2011, some guys here with clear biased agenda labeled JV as a bad pick, worthless against NBA's bigs and so on. Especially in his last seasons in Toronto, plenty of posters here went berserk trying to prove hoh a bad player JV was. Play Poeltl over him, trade JV to (name any C in the league). "JV is unplayable and unwatchable, turtle and etc..."
Meanwhile in Memphis, I haven't heard anyone yet complaining about JV.

JV showed what he can do after the trade last season. Memphis was happy. Here - "meaningless stats on a sh***ttty teaam".
This year - different head coach, completely different style of play. Grizzlies average 27.6 assists per game - good for #1in the NBA. I thought that JV will struggle in this system. But nope, he is balling. Remember those years under Casey and with DD, when Raptors were in top of the League in scoring and in the bottom in assists? Yep, sometimes head coach and players on the floor matter.

JV is slow, defensive liability? Yes, JV is not very quick on his feet. But JV is very quick with his hands. Nobody in Memphis yapping non-stop about "how terrible a defender JV is". Because he is not. His PnR defense is still a problem for JV, but not for Memphis. Memphis other defenders are tall, long, quick, flying all over the court. While JV protects the rim, blocks shots and collects rebounds.
Before the season Vegas was 26.5 for the Grizz wins this season. Right now they are 25-25, at the #8 spot in the West. Ahead of Spurs with DD. And how Detroit is doing so far under former Raptors coach, and coach of the year Dwayne Casey? Pistons right now are 18-34, playing ugly. After Pistons will fire Casey, he is not getting another head coach job in the NBA. Unless a good team decides to tank.

Simply, JV was a bad fit with Casey and DD. Or the other way around. Could Raptors won last season without trading JV for Marc? We will never know.

But I know one thing: Casey and DD didn't achieve anything in NBA. They just made good money - their biggest "achievement".
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0 

Post#640 » by Dennis 37 » Wed Feb 5, 2020 4:48 pm

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This put a smile on my face. It means Val has a home. I feel for players who are traded, or let go in FA, and didn't want to go even if it was best for the team. Greivis Vasquez comes to mind.

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