Exposing League's Weakest Defenders by position (East owns 4/5)

[Bankai]

Spoiler:

Do you not see the obvious flaw in this? Come on.... you have to.

And lol at the knee jerk defending JV still when he's not even mentioned.

More like taking subtle shots at posters such as you.

Well... moving on.

Lol JV stans.

I really don't care if you think you're taking shots at me. The argument's long over and the proof is in the pudding. I can argue how JV's defense sucks if you want since the excuses are just comical at this point. I just figured you were over it .... I mean... I you're trying to defend the one part of his game that we traded for precisely because of ... and we won a championship, without him, by playing historic defense.

Or I could be like you and try to find solice in Bleacher Report, of all sources, that is using three defensive box score stats, that have flaws on their own, but then and adding them together which is like adding something measure in feet and kilograms and simply add them, to amplify the flaws of what are mostly players on bad teams, or young teams, whose box score sucks.

But teams will destroy Kanter if he has to start. I don't think we needed this to try to prove that though.

Actually our defense was hardly historic and it wasent better than 3 other Playoff Teams. It was good, but Its been mentioned numerous times that it was the Offense that beat Golden State. Offensive numbers increased in that Series while the Defensive Rating remained stagnant. It looked "historic" to you because it was simply the best defense the Warriors faced that Playoffs, not because it was one of the greatest defenses in NBA history. The Raptors were able to shoot better against the Warriors. More points = win.

And as long as you keep being disingenuous, we can continue to keep having this dance.

[Johnny Bball]

Spoiler:

More like taking subtle shots at posters such as you.

Well... moving on.

Lol JV stans.

I really don't care if you think you're taking shots at me. The argument's long over and the proof is in the pudding. I can argue how JV's defense sucks if you want since the excuses are just comical at this point. I just figured you were over it .... I mean... I you're trying to defend the one part of his game that we traded for precisely because of ... and we won a championship, without him, by playing historic defense.

Or I could be like you and try to find solice in Bleacher Report, of all sources, that is using three defensive box score stats, that have flaws on their own, but then and adding them together which is like adding something measure in feet and kilograms and simply add them, to amplify the flaws of what are mostly players on bad teams, or young teams, whose box score sucks.

But teams will destroy Kanter if he has to start. I don't think we needed this to try to prove that though.

Actually our defense was hardly historic and it wasent better than 3 other Playoff Teams. It was good, but Its been mentioned numerous times that it was the Offense that beat Golden State. Offensive numbers increased in that Series while the Defensive Rating remained stagnant. It looked "historic" to you because it was simply the best defense the Warriors faced that Playoffs, not because it was one of the greatest defenses in NBA history.

And as long as you keep being disingenuous, we can continue to keep having this dance.

And there you have it. You don't even know what you saw.

And I really did laugh pretty hard at the irony of you actually calling me disingenuous here!

[Kevin Willis]

Lou Williams can't defend. He's a Harden style players - score no defend.

[Kevin Willis]

How did this become a JV discussion? So many other story lines.

Tristan sucking. 2Pat not providing anything. Faried and Kanter.

[Kurtz]

Remember when 2Pat was considered our best defender?

[Bankai]

And there you have it. You don't even know what you saw.

And I really did laugh pretty hard at the irony of you actually calling me disingenuous here!

Of course you're disingenuous, as you like to slag people without any proof or merit of discussion. As we see here.

Where am I wrong? The Raptors are good defensively, but the defensive numbers slightly got worse, but the offensive rating increased significantly, over time. Guys like VanVleet, Lowry, Siakam were suddenly making shots. Pacers, Bucks, and Jazz posted better defensive numbers that Playoffs. Again, the Raptors were the best defensive team the Warriors faced, but it was not a historic defense. Their shooting just became fire in the ECF and Finals, and that was what got them 2 Team Trophies.

[mdenny]

Spoiler:

More like taking subtle shots at posters such as you.

Well... moving on.

Lol JV stans.

I really don't care if you think you're taking shots at me. The argument's long over and the proof is in the pudding. I can argue how JV's defense sucks if you want since the excuses are just comical at this point. I just figured you were over it .... I mean... I you're trying to defend the one part of his game that we traded for precisely because of ... and we won a championship, without him, by playing historic defense.

Or I could be like you and try to find solice in Bleacher Report, of all sources, that is using three defensive box score stats, that have flaws on their own, but then and adding them together which is like adding something measure in feet and kilograms and simply add them, to amplify the flaws of what are mostly players on bad teams, or young teams, whose box score sucks.

But teams will destroy Kanter if he has to start. I don't think we needed this to try to prove that though.

Actually our defense was hardly historic and it wasent better than 3 other Playoff Teams. It was good, but Its been mentioned numerous times that it was the Offense that beat Golden State. Offensive numbers increased in that Series while the Defensive Rating remained stagnant. It looked "historic" to you because it was simply the best defense the Warriors faced that Playoffs, not because it was one of the greatest defenses in NBA history. The Raptors were able to shoot better against the Warriors. More points = win.

And as long as you keep being disingenuous, we can continue to keep having this dance.

Respectfully disagree. The stats don't always reveal what's happening in the games. I don't think what we did was 'historic' and there might be an argument that Philly's playoff defence was better than ours. But our defence is the main reason we won the chip. Getting Philly two shot-clock violations in game 7 (plus another couple late desperation shots) crunch time was key. We beat Milwaukee 4 straight because of defence more than anything else.

[Johnny Bball]

And there you have it. You don't even know what you saw.

And I really did laugh pretty hard at the irony of you actually calling me disingenuous here!

Of course you're disingenuous, as you like to slag people without any proof or merit of discussion. As we see here.

Where am I wrong? The Raptors are good defensively, but the defensive numbers slightly got worse, but the offensive rating increased significantly, over time. Guys like VanVleet, Lowry, Siakam were suddenly making shots. Pacers, Bucks, and Jazz posted better defensive numbers that Playoffs. Again, the Raptors were the best defensive team the Warriors faced, but it was not a historic defense. Their shooting just became fire in the ECF and Finals, and that was what got them 2 Team Trophies.

Do I really need to post the graphic again about how our defense was 2nd only to the Pistons team? Or re-post every article that stated defense was the reason from the majority of talking heads? Or parrot the majority of people here who have to opposite opinion to you that see it was an excellent defensive effort and that don't have any bias in it? Or the players that talked about how defense was just so much better? Or even explain the offensive efficiency of three of the teams we faced being a much tougher path than almost anyone faced? How our defensive efficiency was ranked higher than our offensive efficiency? Sorry but this has been gone over so many times I just didn't see a merit for discussion.

Same old bias as you've always had since Toronto Raptors Forum so many years ago. You're trying to down play our defense for one reason and one only. I"m not the one downplaying our offense here btw.

[Raptors_128]

There’s no way the Celtics roll with Kanter as the starting 5, I just don’t see it.

Hopefully Masai fleeces them in a trade for Gasol or Ibaka.

[RaptorHusky]

A bit of schadenfreude: look how well is Knicks front line represented on that list. Knicks gonna Knick

[YogurtProducer]

Contrary to popular belief by JV Haters, JV was never really THAT bad defensively, on paper, or even visually.

Just cause someone isn’t all time bad doesn’t mean they’re great.

Plus, slow footed centres get exposed in the post season but generally are fine during the RS when things don’t matter.

Why are JV fans like this?

Just because they arent great, doesent mean they are bad. Thats the whole point. The context of my post didnt imply he was great, just that he wasent that bad, and he never was. But you had hyperbole being spread that he was the worst ever. Try again.

But he is bad. There’s no other way to look at it. Just because he isn’t all time bad, doesn’t mean he isnt bad.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Why isin't JV on that list....?

[tor1234567]

There’s no way the Celtics roll with Kanter as the starting 5, I just don’t see it.

Hopefully Masai fleeces them in a trade for Gasol or Ibaka.

I wouldn't mind trading with the Clippers for baby Gasol (Zubac) who is on an awesome four year $7 million per season contract.

Either that or a couple of first rounders.

I would rather watch Gasol walk than give him away for less.

[Metallikid]

JV is only ranked 4 spots below Kawhi. Serge also has a good ranking according to 538

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-better-way-to-evaluate-nba-defense/

Serge is a great defender. JV's problems were always overstated. Yes, he doesn't have the best footspeed, but he's far from the worst.

[Courtside]

Why isin't JV on that list....?

Contrary to popular belief by JV Haters, JV was never really THAT bad defensively, on paper, or even visually.

Just cause someone isn’t all time bad doesn’t mean they’re great.

Plus, slow footed centres get exposed in the post season but generally are fine during the RS when things don’t matter.

Why are JV fans like this?

Except nobody said JV was great. That was you putting words in someone's mouth and/or creating a strawman to argue with.

Why are JV haters like this?

[Brinbe]

that's the one thing i'll always commend this front office/staff for, they get it. defense matters and defense literally wins championships. i'm confident that almost every single guy on the roster, book's still out on matt '99%' thomas, can d up when asked to, regardless of their offense.

[OakleyDokely]

And there you have it. You don't even know what you saw.

And I really did laugh pretty hard at the irony of you actually calling me disingenuous here!

Of course you're disingenuous, as you like to slag people without any proof or merit of discussion. As we see here.

Where am I wrong? The Raptors are good defensively, but the defensive numbers slightly got worse, but the offensive rating increased significantly, over time. Guys like VanVleet, Lowry, Siakam were suddenly making shots. Pacers, Bucks, and Jazz posted better defensive numbers that Playoffs. Again, the Raptors were the best defensive team the Warriors faced, but it was not a historic defense. Their shooting just became fire in the ECF and Finals, and that was what got them 2 Team Trophies.

Their defensive numbers got slightly worse because the quality of their offensive competition increased. PHI, MIL, GS were 3 of the best offensive teams in the regular season and all three were significantly worse offensively against the Raptors. GS had a 116 ORtg in the regular season and a 110 vs the Raps. MIL had a 114 ORtg in the regular season and a 107 against the Raps. PHI had a 113 ORtg in the regular season and a 105 against the Raps. The Raps shutdown hall of fame calibre players for long stretches of series' and that was the difference in most games.

[Kevin Willis]

And there you have it. You don't even know what you saw.

And I really did laugh pretty hard at the irony of you actually calling me disingenuous here!

Of course you're disingenuous, as you like to slag people without any proof or merit of discussion. As we see here.

Where am I wrong? The Raptors are good defensively, but the defensive numbers slightly got worse, but the offensive rating increased significantly, over time. Guys like VanVleet, Lowry, Siakam were suddenly making shots. Pacers, Bucks, and Jazz posted better defensive numbers that Playoffs. Again, the Raptors were the best defensive team the Warriors faced, but it was not a historic defense. Their shooting just became fire in the ECF and Finals, and that was what got them 2 Team Trophies.

Their defensive numbers got slightly worse because the quality of their offensive competition increased. PHI, MIL, GS were 3 of the best offensive teams in the regular season and all three were significantly worse offensively against the Raptors. GS had a 116 ORtg in the regular season and a 110 vs the Raps. MIL had a 114 ORtg in the regular season and a 107 against the Raps. PHI had a 113 ORtg in the regular season and a 105 against the Raps. The Raps shutdown hall of fame calibre players for long stretches of series' and that was the difference in most games.

Agreed. Our defense was elite in the playoffs by slowing down elite offensive teams. I understand what Bankai means about our offense improving - it did. But Philly is longer and taller than we were and Milwaukee has a good defensive system. GSW is not comparable defensively to those two teams so our offense got better. But what saved us was our defense because even when we couldn't hit shots we limited the other team's scoring so they couldn't pull away. Then Kawhi would go iso mode to keep us in it until shots started falling. Overall our defense was very, very good.

[Vexxed]

JV was a bad pick and roll defender but he was a decent post defender. Clearly in today's game you have to be better in the p&r but to say he was all bad is a bit of an exaggeration. It's a shame too because he's such a good defensive rebounder, it was the one thing we really missed after he left (Obvs didn't miss it that much in the end). I don't think we win it all if he had stayed though

[Kingsway_fan]

How much of our great defense was a result of Kawhi?... how much do we digress as a result?