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With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4?

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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#41 » by triple_threat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:20 am

provecy15 wrote:With Nurse entertaining the idea of Pascal playing the 3, who should be playing the 4?

RHJ played the 4 with Nets. Problem is, Pascal and RHJ are not exactly 3pt snipers. Ibaka and Gasol together in terms of starting will likely not happen.

With more rumors of FVV starting alongside Lowry, would a lineup of:

Gasol
RHJ
Siakim
FVV
Lowry

Work?

Ibaka-OG-SJ-Norm will likely be the next 4.


This lineup makes me want to puke
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#42 » by triple_threat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:22 am

super_balls wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:
Senbonzakura wrote:OG starts if he's healthy. He's the best 3 point shooter (by quite some distance) of our combo forwards and at least tied for the best defender. No brainer to go with OG-Siakam-Gasol as 3-4-5 with Ibaka getting a lot of minutes off the bench.

The biggest questions is shooting guard. Does FVV get the start or does Powell?


Literally makes zero sense to start FVV at the SG position. I don't think he's played a single minute in his career at that position.

FVV is gonna anchor the second unit with Terence Davis as his back-court partner.


HUHHHH? He's been playing the 2 since he ended games in 2017 with Lowry and DeMar. Even in the FINALS, he started at the 2 to begin the 2nd half. Lowry and Fred are interchangeable in those lineups but he has definitely played two guard minutes.


It still makes 0.sense to start him. Is he all of a sudden too good to bring off the bench lmao.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#43 » by HeadtopChunes » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:32 am

triple_threat wrote:
super_balls wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:
Literally makes zero sense to start FVV at the SG position. I don't think he's played a single minute in his career at that position.

FVV is gonna anchor the second unit with Terence Davis as his back-court partner.


HUHHHH? He's been playing the 2 since he ended games in 2017 with Lowry and DeMar. Even in the FINALS, he started at the 2 to begin the 2nd half. Lowry and Fred are interchangeable in those lineups but he has definitely played two guard minutes.


It still makes 0.sense to start him. Is he all of a sudden too good to bring off the bench lmao.


I think its based on the fact that hes better than Norm

Which is true

But this would leave us with a reall small starting backourt and no backup PG

Doesnt make sense in that regard

I do think Fred will close games more often than not tho
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#44 » by VanWest82 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:32 am

OG went from being the 19th rated SF by DRPM in 17/18 to 76th in 18/19. What changed? I'd argue that OG playing out of position at the 4 really hurt his effectiveness and needs to stop. He's a wing, not a forward. His strength is in guarding twos and threes and shooting over them. I think we need to throw out last year's numbers and give him every chance to play the three over the likes of RHJ and Stanley Johnson who have already proven they hinder your offense because they're incapable scorers from the perimeter. Those guys are depth at best.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#45 » by triple_threat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:50 am

HeadtopChunes wrote:
triple_threat wrote:
super_balls wrote:
HUHHHH? He's been playing the 2 since he ended games in 2017 with Lowry and DeMar. Even in the FINALS, he started at the 2 to begin the 2nd half. Lowry and Fred are interchangeable in those lineups but he has definitely played two guard minutes.


It still makes 0.sense to start him. Is he all of a sudden too good to bring off the bench lmao.


I think its based on the fact that hes better than Norm

Which is true

But this would leave us with a reall small starting backourt and no backup PG

Doesnt make sense in that regard

I do think Fred will close games more often than not tho


Yup ginobli was better than whoever started ahead of him.and he was a true 2 guard
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#46 » by Steven1562 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:44 am

I'm hoping RHJ turns into an Andre Iguodala type for our team. A swiss army knife type of player who can do a little bit of everything.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#47 » by Kevin Willis » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:46 pm

HeadtopChunes wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:Once again, OG doesn’t shoot shots unless he’s guaranteed to hit them,


I mean its pretty obvious OG has been in a far better team situation than the other two. But

1) That's not necessarily true

2) Not something to penalize him for

Actually, we can just look up the stats on contested shots on NBA.com and look at that OGs looks pretty good again.

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Yes, a lower % of his overall shots were contested but he was by far the best finisher at contested shots.



OG is not a finisher because he never slashes or posts up. He finishes open layups and shoots the occasional late clock 2. That’s it. He’s better at something Johnson also never does, and something RHJ does, but isn’t great at. There really isn’t any benefit to any of the 3 here, as none of them have proven they’re capable finishers in their career.


Not sure how you define finisher but my definition is pretty straight forward. Finishing at the rim which I already made my case on.

Also, the benefit is especially important for RHJ who functions much more as a big man than the other 2 taking a large volume of assisted shots in the paint and primarily being a roll man/rebounder.



OG also isn’t the most athletic, RHJ and Johnson are both solid athletes. OG is super unfluid and an awkward athlete. He isn’t overly fast, he isn’t overly latterly quick, and he isn’t overly strong. He isn’t negative in any area but he certainly isn’t elite either.


OG is definitely the best athlete.

His lateral quickness, explosiveness and vertical are far superior to the other 2

Stanley Johnson is not a solid athlete Stanley has 0 burst or explosion and is too heavy move quickly laterally all he has is strength.

RHJ I would call a solid athlete but he doesn't have the same vertical or lateral quickness that OG has.



OG doesn’t have the highest upside of the 3, it’s that simple. He has shown nothing that suggests he even has 1 highly above average skill (35% from 3 is below league average). Johnson has shown he can be an elite defender. RHJ has shown he can be an nice defender and rebounder at the 3/small 4. His per 36 in 2018 of 18/9/3/1/1 on 55TS% is more promising than OG’s first two campaigns as well.


I must have missed when Johnson showed he was an elite defender because I don't remember any such thing.

I find it interesting that you penalize OG for being on a good team and playing a smaller role but somehow RHJ getting to chuck shots on a bad team is some version of superior upside? Are you ignoring RHJ falling out of the rotation the very next year when the Nets actually became a decent team?

Those 2 have proven nothing and its why we have them on minimums or close to it


Once again, if OG was a Net or a Piston his entire career he’d be the guy who was looking to be signed to a 1 year reclamation project in 2021. Instead he got to chill and play to his strengths (defence) as a 5th option, a luxury these other two haven’t had in their careers. There’s a legitimate argument he wouldn’t have even been in our playoff rotation last year, as he doesn’t really bring anything to the table. His 35% from 3 is also below league average and that’s on primarily wide open shots. He isn’t some knockdown shooter.


Can't really judge prospects by some hypotheticals. OG isn't a knockdown shooter but he's an efficient 4th/5th option and a positive defender.

Again this argument falls apart when you consider OG was one of our better playoff performers last year and Stanley and RHJ both lost their places in their rotation on two worse playoffs teams. The pistons traded their only SF for Thon Maker, Stanley ended up on the Pelicans where he largely underperformed.

RHJ quite literally didnt make the rotation of the Nets which were barely a playoff team

People acting like OG is some outstanding prospect are kidding themselves. He’s a decent shooting, decent defending wing with no other skill to speak of. This isnt a future all star, this isn’t a future high level starter, and it might not even be a high level bench player.


Nobody here is acting like OG is some amazing prospect. It's more like he's a better one than 2 meh prospects. Who ironically seem to be the ones being overrated here.


Wonderful discussion from both of you - really solid points that are backed up with facts. The fact that OG has been a part of this core and Masai was reluctant to trade him suggests he will be given the chance to play over Stanley and RHJ. Stanley and RHJ are Raptors because Kawhi took so long to decide and they were the best options available at the time. RHJ is a utility player and I agree with some that he might not get a lot of playing time. Stanley has potential but he's had every chance to prove his potential and hasn't. Yogurt is right though, OG is not an all-star level guy and he's very awkward athletically with very little strength. But he's a better option than the other two and unlike Stanley has shown improvement outside of his unlucky last year.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#48 » by Senbonzakura » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:02 pm

Some of you guys just like complicating things that aren't complicated. OG is our best small forward. He is the only one of RHJ, SJ and himself who can shoot the ball remotely reliably. We cannot play a non-shooter with Siakam at the 3/4 because then we'll have next to no spacing.

It's not **** rocket science. OG and Siakam will start with RHJ/SJ being backup combo forwards (which is what their ability indicates they should be). Ibaka will be the backup center to Gasol.

The only question mark is the 2 spot. Do we go with the FVV-Lowry backcourt or a more traditional 2-guard in Powell?
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#49 » by tecumseh18 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:09 pm

Senbonzakura wrote:
The only question mark is the 2 spot. Do we go with the FVV-Lowry backcourt or a more traditional 2-guard in Powell?


Norm is the second longest serving Raptor. When he's started, it's been out of position at the 3 where he was required to guard guys like Lebron (and he failed miserably).

Let Norm start at the 2 for gawd's sake. Give him run for 20 games or so. Teams tend to go small in crunch time, when Fred will get his chance to shine.Also, it makes sense for Norm to play with Marc as much as possible. Norm's a good catch and shoot guy when wide open.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#50 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:28 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:OG doesn’t have the highest upside of the 3, it’s that simple. He has shown nothing that suggests he even has 1 highly above average skill (35% from 3 is below league average). Johnson has shown he can be an elite defender. RHJ has shown he can be an nice defender and rebounder at the 3/small 4. His per 36 in 2018 of 18/9/3/1/1 on 55TS% is more promising than OG’s first two campaigns as well.


Yeah, OG does. Stanley Johnson was projected to be better as a draft pick but that's 4 years ago at this point. Unless SJ is the latest of all bloomers and can learn to shoot, maybe he had the worst work ethic ever and it changed, he doesn't have the highest upside. You can't shoot 37% for 4 years and have the highest upside.

Shown nothing? Nah. Sure he has, OG had shown more in his first year than either of them did alone. Last year was a right-off and Leonard and Siakam took his starting spot justifiably is all.

RHJ isn't even in the discussion.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#51 » by YogurtProducer » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:14 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:OG doesn’t have the highest upside of the 3, it’s that simple. He has shown nothing that suggests he even has 1 highly above average skill (35% from 3 is below league average). Johnson has shown he can be an elite defender. RHJ has shown he can be an nice defender and rebounder at the 3/small 4. His per 36 in 2018 of 18/9/3/1/1 on 55TS% is more promising than OG’s first two campaigns as well.


Yeah, OG does. Stanley Johnson was projected to be better as a draft pick but that's 4 years ago at this point. Unless SJ is the latest of all bloomers and can learn to shoot, maybe he had the worst work ethic ever and it changed, he doesn't have the highest upside. You can't shoot 37% for 4 years and have the highest upside.

Shown nothing? Nah. Sure he has, OG had shown more in his first year than either of them did alone. Last year was a right-off and Leonard and Siakam took his starting spot justifiably is all.

RHJ isn't even in the discussion.


Even in OG’s rookie year he started out of pure necessity and not really because he was so good he deserved it.

The only thing separating OG from RHJ and SJ is his jump shot. If (and can I **** emphasize if because people can’t understand it) RHJ or SJ come into this year with similar shot as OG they will be the more productive player. I understand OG’s ability to (kinda?) shoot is what is pushing him ahead of them... but that’s it. Literally that is it.

I have more faith in RHJ or SJ learning to shoot, than I do OG learning to dribble, pass, and rebound. That’s all I’m trying to say.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#52 » by HeadtopChunes » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:20 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:Wonderful discussion from both of you - really solid points that are backed up with facts. The fact that OG has been a part of this core and Masai was reluctant to trade him suggests he will be given the chance to play over Stanley and RHJ. Stanley and RHJ are Raptors because Kawhi took so long to decide and they were the best options available at the time. RHJ is a utility player and I agree with some that he might not get a lot of playing time. Stanley has potential but he's had every chance to prove his potential and hasn't. Yogurt is right though, OG is not an all-star level guy and he's very awkward athletically with very little strength. But he's a better option than the other two and unlike Stanley has shown improvement outside of his unlucky last year.


I’d agree that OG is pretty awkward with his athleticism he seems to lose his balance frequently and kinda of doesn’t understand how much of an advantage his body is (idk how I would describe it) he did get a little better towards the end of the season with more decisive drives and much better use of his length to disrupt passing lanes.

(Delon was always really good at taking full advantage of his length I think something OG can do more)

I would disagree that he’s not very strong tho. He was our best Blake Griffin defender last year and looked good in his spot center minutes (such as vs Deandre Jordan)

I think strength is not the issue but again balance. OG seems to carry most of his weight in his legs.my theory is that’s what throwing off his balance and an increase in core strength could possibly fix these issues.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#53 » by TerryTate » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:25 pm

VanWest82 wrote:OG went from being the 19th rated SF by DRPM in 17/18 to 76th in 18/19. What changed? I'd argue that OG playing out of position at the 4 really hurt his effectiveness and needs to stop. He's a wing, not a forward. His strength is in guarding twos and threes and shooting over them. I think we need to throw out last year's numbers and give him every chance to play the three over the likes of RHJ and Stanley Johnson who have already proven they hinder your offense because they're incapable scorers from the perimeter. Those guys are depth at best.


That could be also attributed to Kawhi coming in, his father passing away, and injuries the past year.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#54 » by TerryTate » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:29 pm

Steven1562 wrote:I'm hoping RHJ turns into an Andre Iguodala type for our team. A swiss army knife type of player who can do a little bit of everything.

Iggy could at least shoot a mid-range J. RHJ has no jumper.
Don't get me wrong I like the RHJ pickup and I think we can help him develop a jumper, but we should be investing in our FR draft pick OG.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#55 » by Senbonzakura » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:32 pm

This is really some "Sonny Weems is better than DeRozan" level logic from some of you guys man.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#56 » by Tanner » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:59 pm

Lineup should be: Lowry, Norm, OG, Siakam, and Gasol

Closing lineup will be different (FVV over Norm and possibly Ibaka over OG with Siakam at the 3 depending on the match up).

Really need an upgrade at the 2/3, but as presently constructed, that's the lineup.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#57 » by Mikistan » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:10 pm

Senbonzakura wrote:This is really some "Sonny Weems is better than DeRozan" level logic from some of you guys man.

Not everyone is lucky enough for the "come hell or high water" treatment for unlimited offensive touches with no leash for defensive lapses/rest
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#58 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:57 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:OG doesn’t have the highest upside of the 3, it’s that simple. He has shown nothing that suggests he even has 1 highly above average skill (35% from 3 is below league average). Johnson has shown he can be an elite defender. RHJ has shown he can be an nice defender and rebounder at the 3/small 4. His per 36 in 2018 of 18/9/3/1/1 on 55TS% is more promising than OG’s first two campaigns as well.


Yeah, OG does. Stanley Johnson was projected to be better as a draft pick but that's 4 years ago at this point. Unless SJ is the latest of all bloomers and can learn to shoot, maybe he had the worst work ethic ever and it changed, he doesn't have the highest upside. You can't shoot 37% for 4 years and have the highest upside.

Shown nothing? Nah. Sure he has, OG had shown more in his first year than either of them did alone. Last year was a right-off and Leonard and Siakam took his starting spot justifiably is all.

RHJ isn't even in the discussion.


Even in OG’s rookie year he started out of pure necessity and not really because he was so good he deserved it.

The only thing separating OG from RHJ and SJ is his jump shot. If (and can I **** emphasize if because people can’t understand it) RHJ or SJ come into this year with similar shot as OG they will be the more productive player. I understand OG’s ability to (kinda?) shoot is what is pushing him ahead of them... but that’s it. Literally that is it.

I have more faith in RHJ or SJ learning to shoot, than I do OG learning to dribble, pass, and rebound. That’s all I’m trying to say.


Let's look at a large sample size of opinions. As free agents, SJ got 3.5 and RHJ got 2.5 (both RFAs that were not kept). That's how much the rest of the NBA sees for their potential. I'm pretty damn sure OG could have brought better than either player back in a trade or would get more if he was an RFA in July and Toronto renounce his cap hold.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#59 » by VanWest82 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:25 pm

I could see us occasionally flipping starters between Fred/Norm and Ibaka/Gasol depending on match ups. I think Nurse kind of liked the chaos last year of playing so many line ups.

OG should start @ SF. It's the only realistic option unless we decide to go with Norm at the 3. Outside of future 905 extraordinaire Matt Thomas, they're the only wings on the team that can shoot.
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Re: With Pascal possibly at the 3, should RHJ be the 4? 

Post#60 » by PerkinsFor3 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:31 pm

Tanner wrote:Lineup should be: Lowry, Norm, OG, Siakam, and Gasol

Closing lineup will be different (FVV over Norm and possibly Ibaka over OG with Siakam at the 3 depending on the match up).

Really need an upgrade at the 2/3, but as presently constructed, that's the lineup.


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