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OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals

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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#81 » by hsb » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:11 pm

Bogdan Bogdanović has the it factor but I can't pretend like I watched enough Kings games to know how he's being used in the NBA.

I don't think Jaylen Brown is that good and he's in a contract year, it'll be interesting.
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#82 » by TheBoi10 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 pm

ImaBeatDatAzz wrote:So like... if a Celtics team with Donovan Mitchell and Myles turner and brad Stevens 2.0 as the coach, struggles this badly in FIBA, how will the actual Celtics team do in the nba... smh


38 wins :lol:

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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#83 » by Ke-y » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:57 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:
SHFT wrote:
Ke-y wrote:1. Solid nba players is what all those role players project to be.. Your point that they are "miles" better than fvv doesn't hold water.
2. Fvv at worst is a solid starting pg (top 15) in his prime.. He is not far from Lowry in terms of talent.. Sure he's a weaker defender but he projects to be better on offense. Lowry was a fringe All-Star who was consistently a top 5-10 pg in this league.. I don't see why fvv can't push himself from top 15 pg to top 10 or higher considering they are similarly talented, equally athletic and bring the same intangibles of work ethic, leadership and IQ


Nope. Ill start by saying I like FVV and hope he sticks around as a gunner off the bench (/ finish games) because he is good at it. He has 6moty potential in that role imo but he is not / nor will ever be a starting pg of Lowry's quality. That they are a similar size and are outside threats is where the comparison ends. Lowry brings intangibles FVV doesn't even see atm and their game is completely different.

I would take any of these pg's over FVV in a heartbeat and then we are excluding any pg's that will enter the league in the next
couple of years (where all of these guys listed should still be in the NBA, bar Lowry, and maybe Kyrie because he seems to be injury prone). League is full of talented pg's these days.

Lowry
Dame
Westbrook
Lillard
Irving
Walker
Simmons
Mitchell
Steph
Fox
Morant
RJ
Shai
Russell
T Young
Jamaal Murray


The list of PGs better than FVV is much larger than this

I don't see much difference between fvv and lowry.. lowry has more dog in him but fred never gets rattled.. both are limited by size and athleticism but make up for it with intangibles.. fred is still young and will continue to improve.. lowry was a late bloomer and was pegged as a back-up for years before getting an opportunity.. i don't see why fvv can't reach lowry's level or fall just shy.

lowry at fred's stage of career was not a lock to be a starting PG let alone become a consistent fringe allstar.. why does fvv following a similar trajectory seem so impossible to some of you?

i won't bet against a man who bets on (and truly believes in) himself
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#84 » by YogurtProducer » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:24 pm

Ke-y wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
SHFT wrote:
Nope. Ill start by saying I like FVV and hope he sticks around as a gunner off the bench (/ finish games) because he is good at it. He has 6moty potential in that role imo but he is not / nor will ever be a starting pg of Lowry's quality. That they are a similar size and are outside threats is where the comparison ends. Lowry brings intangibles FVV doesn't even see atm and their game is completely different.

I would take any of these pg's over FVV in a heartbeat and then we are excluding any pg's that will enter the league in the next
couple of years (where all of these guys listed should still be in the NBA, bar Lowry, and maybe Kyrie because he seems to be injury prone). League is full of talented pg's these days.

Lowry
Dame
Westbrook
Lillard
Irving
Walker
Simmons
Mitchell
Steph
Fox
Morant
RJ
Shai
Russell
T Young
Jamaal Murray


The list of PGs better than FVV is much larger than this

I don't see much difference between fvv and lowry.. lowry has more dog in him but fred never gets rattled.. both are limited by size and athleticism but make up for it with intangibles.. fred is still young and will continue to improve.. lowry was a late bloomer and was pegged as a back-up for years before getting an opportunity.. i don't see why fvv can't reach lowry's level or fall just shy.

lowry at fred's stage of career was not a lock to be a starting PG let alone become a consistent fringe allstar.. why does fvv following a similar trajectory seem so impossible to some of you?

i won't bet against a man who bets on (and truly believes in) himself

FVV never gets rattled? FVV looked like the leagues worst player from Game 2 of round 1 to game 4 of round 3. Literally a month or more of games FVV was unplayable and was absolutely awful. He was the definition of rattled by size.

Lowry at FVV's age was the starting PG for the 5th seed Rockets. He was not seen as a back-up; he was already a starter on a top 10 NBA team. Lowry has physical tools that FVV does not, which is a huge disadvantage for FVV because Lowry already has pretty average tools physically, especially at this age.

Lowry and FVV had very similar per 36 numbers at age 24, except one did it as a main cog as a starter and the other did it off the bench against reserves on a team surrounded by MUCH better talent.

You even pointed out how Lowry defied the odds to become what he did, and the man arguably surpassed every hurdle no one expected him to, and you call that getting rattled? He came into the league as a backup.. worked to a starter.. worked to a all star.. worked to a all-nba player.. worked to shed the "choker" label..

If we would have lost game 3 of the MIL series, and therefore Round 3, all off-season we would be talking about how FVV was a garbage backup and how him not showing up absolutely ruined us. Instead we get this revisionist history where we forget

Plus... here are some stats for you that show how badly Lowry impacts FVV's game.

Lowry On Court: FVV averages 14/6 Per 36 minutes on 48% from the field and 46% from 3. Awesome numbers
Lowry Off Court: FVV averages 15/7 Per 36 minutes on 38% from the field and 34% from 3. Not as great.

In the playoss he goes from 13/3 on 45% and 46% to 10/5 on 31% and 29%

In short: FVV is an absolute SCRUB when Lowry is not on the floor with him. Essentially, he is a really bad PG and is a small 2 guard who will always need a Lowry in his life.
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#85 » by Ke-y » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:05 am

YogurtProducer wrote:
Ke-y wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
The list of PGs better than FVV is much larger than this

I don't see much difference between fvv and lowry.. lowry has more dog in him but fred never gets rattled.. both are limited by size and athleticism but make up for it with intangibles.. fred is still young and will continue to improve.. lowry was a late bloomer and was pegged as a back-up for years before getting an opportunity.. i don't see why fvv can't reach lowry's level or fall just shy.

lowry at fred's stage of career was not a lock to be a starting PG let alone become a consistent fringe allstar.. why does fvv following a similar trajectory seem so impossible to some of you?

i won't bet against a man who bets on (and truly believes in) himself

FVV never gets rattled? FVV looked like the leagues worst player from Game 2 of round 1 to game 4 of round 3. Literally a month or more of games FVV was unplayable and was absolutely awful. He was the definition of rattled by size.

Lowry at FVV's age was the starting PG for the 5th seed Rockets. He was not seen as a back-up; he was already a starter on a top 10 NBA team. Lowry has physical tools that FVV does not, which is a huge disadvantage for FVV because Lowry already has pretty average tools physically, especially at this age.

Lowry and FVV had very similar per 36 numbers at age 24, except one did it as a main cog as a starter and the other did it off the bench against reserves on a team surrounded by MUCH better talent.

You even pointed out how Lowry defied the odds to become what he did, and the man arguably surpassed every hurdle no one expected him to, and you call that getting rattled? He came into the league as a backup.. worked to a starter.. worked to a all star.. worked to a all-nba player.. worked to shed the "choker" label..

If we would have lost game 3 of the MIL series, and therefore Round 3, all off-season we would be talking about how FVV was a garbage backup and how him not showing up absolutely ruined us. Instead we get this revisionist history where we forget

Plus... here are some stats for you that show how badly Lowry impacts FVV's game.

Lowry On Court: FVV averages 14/6 Per 36 minutes on 48% from the field and 46% from 3. Awesome numbers
Lowry Off Court: FVV averages 15/7 Per 36 minutes on 38% from the field and 34% from 3. Not as great.

In the playoss he goes from 13/3 on 45% and 46% to 10/5 on 31% and 29%

In short: FVV is an absolute SCRUB when Lowry is not on the floor with him. Essentially, he is a really bad PG and is a small 2 guard who will always need a Lowry in his life.

I disagree with your assessment that Lowry at age 24 was vastly superior to fvv.. He may have been better but to say they were in different tiers is not fair.

Also there's a diff bw choking and slumping.. Fred was slumping bad but I wouldn't call him a choker.. He almost always makes the right reads and thinks the game at a young age.. That's not common. You think fred is a career backup and i don't.. We disagree.
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#86 » by mdenny » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:31 am

RonaldArtest wrote:
TDotJon wrote:France had the best player on the court (Gobert) . wow Khris Middleton could only stay on the floor for 18 mins and go 2/7?

Bucks were obviously in a tight spot with wanting to retain Giannis, they need to surround him with talent, provide stability and continuity, etc. But man Middleton is incredibly overpaid. Dollar amount to production level that might be one of the worst deals in the league.



Yah I don't know if the stats confirm this....but he seems like the kind of player that skews his stats by going ham on weak teams or meaninglessly favorable match-ups. Somewhat similar to Derozan in this sense imo.
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#87 » by YogurtProducer » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:29 am

Ke-y wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
Ke-y wrote:I don't see much difference between fvv and lowry.. lowry has more dog in him but fred never gets rattled.. both are limited by size and athleticism but make up for it with intangibles.. fred is still young and will continue to improve.. lowry was a late bloomer and was pegged as a back-up for years before getting an opportunity.. i don't see why fvv can't reach lowry's level or fall just shy.

lowry at fred's stage of career was not a lock to be a starting PG let alone become a consistent fringe allstar.. why does fvv following a similar trajectory seem so impossible to some of you?

i won't bet against a man who bets on (and truly believes in) himself

FVV never gets rattled? FVV looked like the leagues worst player from Game 2 of round 1 to game 4 of round 3. Literally a month or more of games FVV was unplayable and was absolutely awful. He was the definition of rattled by size.

Lowry at FVV's age was the starting PG for the 5th seed Rockets. He was not seen as a back-up; he was already a starter on a top 10 NBA team. Lowry has physical tools that FVV does not, which is a huge disadvantage for FVV because Lowry already has pretty average tools physically, especially at this age.

Lowry and FVV had very similar per 36 numbers at age 24, except one did it as a main cog as a starter and the other did it off the bench against reserves on a team surrounded by MUCH better talent.

You even pointed out how Lowry defied the odds to become what he did, and the man arguably surpassed every hurdle no one expected him to, and you call that getting rattled? He came into the league as a backup.. worked to a starter.. worked to a all star.. worked to a all-nba player.. worked to shed the "choker" label..

If we would have lost game 3 of the MIL series, and therefore Round 3, all off-season we would be talking about how FVV was a garbage backup and how him not showing up absolutely ruined us. Instead we get this revisionist history where we forget

Plus... here are some stats for you that show how badly Lowry impacts FVV's game.

Lowry On Court: FVV averages 14/6 Per 36 minutes on 48% from the field and 46% from 3. Awesome numbers
Lowry Off Court: FVV averages 15/7 Per 36 minutes on 38% from the field and 34% from 3. Not as great.

In the playoss he goes from 13/3 on 45% and 46% to 10/5 on 31% and 29%

In short: FVV is an absolute SCRUB when Lowry is not on the floor with him. Essentially, he is a really bad PG and is a small 2 guard who will always need a Lowry in his life.

I disagree with your assessment that Lowry at age 24 was vastly superior to fvv.. He may have been better but to say they were in different tiers is not fair.

Also there's a diff bw choking and slumping.. Fred was slumping bad but I wouldn't call him a choker.. He almost always makes the right reads and thinks the game at a young age.. That's not common. You think fred is a career backup and i don't.. We disagree.


So you just gonna ignore that without Lowry FVV’s numbers are literally scrub level?
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#88 » by Ke-y » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:32 am

YogurtProducer wrote:
Ke-y wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:FVV never gets rattled? FVV looked like the leagues worst player from Game 2 of round 1 to game 4 of round 3. Literally a month or more of games FVV was unplayable and was absolutely awful. He was the definition of rattled by size.

Lowry at FVV's age was the starting PG for the 5th seed Rockets. He was not seen as a back-up; he was already a starter on a top 10 NBA team. Lowry has physical tools that FVV does not, which is a huge disadvantage for FVV because Lowry already has pretty average tools physically, especially at this age.

Lowry and FVV had very similar per 36 numbers at age 24, except one did it as a main cog as a starter and the other did it off the bench against reserves on a team surrounded by MUCH better talent.

You even pointed out how Lowry defied the odds to become what he did, and the man arguably surpassed every hurdle no one expected him to, and you call that getting rattled? He came into the league as a backup.. worked to a starter.. worked to a all star.. worked to a all-nba player.. worked to shed the "choker" label..

If we would have lost game 3 of the MIL series, and therefore Round 3, all off-season we would be talking about how FVV was a garbage backup and how him not showing up absolutely ruined us. Instead we get this revisionist history where we forget

Plus... here are some stats for you that show how badly Lowry impacts FVV's game.

Lowry On Court: FVV averages 14/6 Per 36 minutes on 48% from the field and 46% from 3. Awesome numbers
Lowry Off Court: FVV averages 15/7 Per 36 minutes on 38% from the field and 34% from 3. Not as great.

In the playoss he goes from 13/3 on 45% and 46% to 10/5 on 31% and 29%

In short: FVV is an absolute SCRUB when Lowry is not on the floor with him. Essentially, he is a really bad PG and is a small 2 guard who will always need a Lowry in his life.

I disagree with your assessment that Lowry at age 24 was vastly superior to fvv.. He may have been better but to say they were in different tiers is not fair.

Also there's a diff bw choking and slumping.. Fred was slumping bad but I wouldn't call him a choker.. He almost always makes the right reads and thinks the game at a young age.. That's not common. You think fred is a career backup and i don't.. We disagree.


So you just gonna ignore that without Lowry FVV’s numbers are literally scrub level?

It's really bizarre that you want to trash fvv.. i don't understand but i'll bite:

1. Lowry came into the league in 2007 at age 20 and missed the playoffs every year until 2014 at age 27 (with the exception of 2009 when he was traded to a playoff team).. oh btw he came of the bench on that team (skip to my lou was the starter).. memory not as good as you thought huh?

2. Lowry was a backup PG for his first 4 seasons before getting a starting gig at age 24.. fvv was 24 last year (3rd season) and can start on a few teams now.. note that lowry didn't lead a team to the playoffs until age 27 with the raps

3. You seem to think lowry makes fvv but you discount the impact of matchups, lineups, chemistry etc.. you can't simplify to on/off with 2 players.. for instance fvv playing alongside lowry could've mostly happened when other starters were playing which means less attention on fvv (not solely due to lowry) vs fvv playing without lowry could've happened mostly with the bench so more attention on fvv.. you can't draw conclusions from those numbers

4. Since you brought it up let's look at Per 36 numbers for both age 22-24 (i've left out lowry's first 2 seasons which were worse):
........ MP FG% 3P% eFG% FT% PTS AST REB STL BLK TOV
Lowry 26.8 41.9 30.1 46.9 79.8 13.4 6.5 4.6 1.4 0.3 2.4
FVV... 20.2 41.2 39.4 50.4 83.6 14.7 5.9 4.0 1.4 0.4 1.7

So what exactly makes lowry so much better than fvv up to age 24? Why is comparing the 2 "insane"?

Both are pretty similar in productivity but fvv is much more efficient. Lowry is prob the better defender but fvv is no slouch. As far as I can tell they are comparable at this stage of their careers.

I'm done trying to convince you or anybody else. My point from the start has been FVV projects to be a quality starting PG.. if he follows lowry's lead he can sneak into the conversation of top 10 PG in a couple years from now. If others disagree whatever.. time will tell.
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#89 » by Ackshun » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:20 am

Am I only one that woke up to watch the semis at 4am?

Probably wouldn't have Gasol wasn't playing.
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#90 » by whoknows » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:13 pm

coach K is smiling while coach Pop has another international loss
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#91 » by YogurtProducer » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:52 pm

Ke-y wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
Ke-y wrote:I disagree with your assessment that Lowry at age 24 was vastly superior to fvv.. He may have been better but to say they were in different tiers is not fair.

Also there's a diff bw choking and slumping.. Fred was slumping bad but I wouldn't call him a choker.. He almost always makes the right reads and thinks the game at a young age.. That's not common. You think fred is a career backup and i don't.. We disagree.


So you just gonna ignore that without Lowry FVV’s numbers are literally scrub level?

It's really bizarre that you want to trash fvv.. i don't understand but i'll bite:

1. Lowry came into the league in 2007 at age 20 and missed the playoffs every year until 2014 at age 27 (with the exception of 2009 when he was traded to a playoff team).. oh btw he came of the bench on that team (skip to my lou was the starter).. memory not as good as you thought huh?

2. Lowry was a backup PG for his first 4 seasons before getting a starting gig at age 24.. fvv was 24 last year (3rd season) and can start on a few teams now.. note that lowry didn't lead a team to the playoffs until age 27 with the raps

3. You seem to think lowry makes fvv but you discount the impact of matchups, lineups, chemistry etc.. you can't simplify to on/off with 2 players.. for instance fvv playing alongside lowry could've mostly happened when other starters were playing which means less attention on fvv (not solely due to lowry) vs fvv playing without lowry could've happened mostly with the bench so more attention on fvv.. you can't draw conclusions from those numbers

4. Since you brought it up let's look at Per 36 numbers for both age 22-24 (i've left out lowry's first 2 seasons which were worse):
........ MP FG% 3P% eFG% FT% PTS AST REB STL BLK TOV
Lowry 26.8 41.9 30.1 46.9 79.8 13.4 6.5 4.6 1.4 0.3 2.4
FVV... 20.2 41.2 39.4 50.4 83.6 14.7 5.9 4.0 1.4 0.4 1.7

So what exactly makes lowry so much better than fvv up to age 24? Why is comparing the 2 "insane"?

Both are pretty similar in productivity but fvv is much more efficient. Lowry is prob the better defender but fvv is no slouch. As far as I can tell they are comparable at this stage of their careers.

I'm done trying to convince you or anybody else. My point from the start has been FVV projects to be a quality starting PG.. if he follows lowry's lead he can sneak into the conversation of top 10 PG in a couple years from now. If others disagree whatever.. time will tell.


There is just... so much going on in this post but here we go...

Let's just start with agreeing on one fact here: Kyle Lowry's career arc is an ABNORMALLY and not on that you can expect players to go on because players simply do not become all-stars, let alone all-nba players very often in their 8th NBA season at age 28. It just simply does not happen very often. That is a fact.

1) You are wrong. Kyle Lowry was the starting PG on the 43-39 Houston Rockets in 2011 but got hurt with 3 games left in the season and never appeared in the post season. In fact, the Rockets started to lean on him towards the end of that season in which he had a great March (20ppg, 8apg, 48%, 43% from 3) but they had him playing 40mpg and he got hurt. But he did make the post season that year as his contributions was a big reason Houston made the playofffs. Thats what he did at age 24.

2) Who can FVV start for? The only teams I found where it was a guarantee he would start for SURE was the Lakers over Rondo and the Magic over Augustin. Then there are the debateables like with Rozier in Charlotte, Satoransky in Chicago, Sexton in CLE, Wright in DAL, Dennis Smith in NY.

3) You are right, I did not account for that. But then your argument pretty much falls apart. If he cannot handle playing against starters he cannot be a starter, right? And if he falls apart against benches due to the increased pressure on him then... he probably cannot be a starter, right? Lowry and FVV played together a lot against both benches and against starters. They sometimes played at the beginning of 2nd quarters and at the end of games. If FVV was without Lowry it was both with starters with Lowry on the bench, or starting when he was hurt.

Really what the numbers with Lowry on vs off show that FVV is an undersized 2 rather than a PG. That was where he flourished against GSW as well because he does not have the PG skills to be a PG. There is not many roles for a 6'0ft 2 guard in the NBA playing consistent minutes. There's also not a lot of PG's like Lowry where he can play the point but defend guys bigger than him without issue. These are issues role players like FVV have.

4) Weird to use stats from age 22-24 when we were discussing them both at age 24 but ok. Either way, Lowry was better in literally every aspect of basketball except for shooting compared to FVV. Once Lowry became an elite shooter it was game over. Players can learn to shoot, players cannot really learn the things Lowry does like rebound, defend well and be switchable, pass incredibly well, and pretty much everything else.

Plus, you get upset about lineup data but then you turn around and blanket look at stats without even considering the fact that from ages 22-24 Lowry changed teams, and played with players that were a hell of a lot worse than those FVV played with. FVV has had the benefit of playing on the bench with really really really good players like Siakam, and hes also had benefits of playing beside really, really, great players like Lowry Kawhi Demar JV and Gasol when he was with the starters. Lowry did not have that same benefit and you are completely ignoring that FVV benefits greatly from his teammates.

to conclude, FVV is an undersized 2 guard who is a role player who thrives as an off ball shooter and match-up dependent defender. As long as he is playing beside a good distributor, or 2 (Lowry, Gasol, Siakam) he will thrive as an off ball shooter. As long as he is playing against a team that he can defend the PG and not get switched onto literally anyone with size (Finals version of GSW), he will thrive there.

But even when he thrives like he did in the final shooting WAAAAY over his head. He is still only a 14ppg, 2apg player. You try to make him a PG and we see the 14/6 on sub 40% shooting FVV that we got off the bench all season long.
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Re: OT: Team "Celtics" USA eliminated by France in the quarter-finals 

Post#92 » by I_Like_Dirt » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:05 pm

Ke-y wrote:I don't see much difference between fvv and lowry..



Wait... what? FVV is awesome but he has a long way to go if he wants to be the next Lowry and he definitely isn't close to there yet.
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