RealGM

Obviously, Kyle Lowry got a ring and has the longevity since he joined Raptors in 2012.

However, do you think DeMar DeRozan is the 2nd greatest player in Raptors' history?

After all, he was stayed with them for 9 years and has longevity records.

However, DeRozan got traded despite wanting to retire as a Raptor.

I was inspired to make this thread after people discussing on who was OKC's greatest player betwee KD & Russ.

People says Westbrook is their franchise GOAT due to longevity & has many records.

However Westbrook got also traded despite wanted to retire as a Thunder.

I'm gonna say yes given longevity, personal stats and team success with him as a focal point.

Lowry. DeMar. Vince. Kawhi. That's the Mt. Rushmore of Raps players imo

Hell no

Kawhi and Siakam for sure are better. Some people would also argue VC

DD was a main reason why the Raptors were a laughingstock in the playoffs. Lowry was never a trash bro, that was solely DD

You can't be a contender for franchise GOAT if a coach has to bench you to make a comeback in the playoffs, repeatedly

TrustFundBaby wrote:Hell no

Kawhi and Siakam for sure are better. Some people would also argue VC

DD was a main reason why the Raptors were a laughingstock in the playoffs. Lowry was never a trash bro, that was solely DD

You can't be a contender for franchise GOAT if a coach has to bench you to make a comeback in the playoffs, repeatedly

Prime Vince is easily better player than DeRozan or literary any Raptors' player with exception of Kawhi.

However, neither Vince & (especially) Kawhi don't have the same longevity as Lowry or DeRozan.

And yes, Lowry was definitely a part of the reason why Raptors used to be a laughing stock in playoffs.

TrustFundBaby wrote:Hell no

Kawhi and Siakam for sure are better. Some people would also argue VC

DD was a main reason why the Raptors were a laughingstock in the playoffs. Lowry was never a trash bro, that was solely DD

You can't be a contender for franchise GOAT if a coach has to bench you to make a comeback in the playoffs, repeatedly

Lowry didn’t have moments of garbage play during his postseason play as a raptor? Let’s not make stuff up.

Goat raps should be in order Kyle, Demar, Kawhi, VC.

No. DeRozan was the deadweight that Lowry had to carry around for five years. He’s behind Vince for sure and possibly behind Kawhi as well depending on how much you weigh longevity and give credit you give to his mercenary season.

Vince Carter played 6 years
Chris Bosh played 7 years
Lowry playing his 8th years
DeRozan played 9 years

Basketball Reference All-Time WinShare (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/)
1) Lowry
2) Bosh
3) DeRozan
4) Carter
5) Valančiūnas

In terms of raw stats where DeRozan has the lead (eg. minutes played, DeRozan has 20% more minutes than Bosh as 2nd), but advance stats is not the case, and Lowry is among the best, which is why he is greatest. As for DeRozan, he served the longest, but may not be the greatest. Would you rank MoPete one of the greatest as well? 7 years with the Raptors.

In terms of pure skill and talent? Probably number one

Basketball_Jones wrote:In terms of pure skill and talent? Probably number one

DeBumzan is not even top 5 in terms of talent

Lowry, Carter, Leonard, Siakam and Bosh are all better

I don't put too much stock into longevity....Kawhi shouldn't be punished because he did more in 1 season than Demar did in 9 seasons. I got Lowry #1, Siakam will soon be #2, Kawhi #3 then Vince/Demar/Bosh.

1. Kyle Lowry - With the threat of Masai blowing up the team and banishing him to the Knicks looming, our 6ft king lifted this franchise from the gutter with his bare hands. On the side, he also gifted Dwane Casey a nice long head coaching career.
2. Kawhi Leonard - a fun guy.
3. VC - During his time here he was an NBA superstar, was must-see TV, highest ASG vote-getter, hosted dope summer charity games in the city, etc etc. Left on bad terms but he was an icon.

VC was 1000x more impactful than Demar for this franchise (and the NBA + culture), not to mention way more talented. The way he left doesn't erase that. Demar's arguments were that he was quiet guy who tried his best, became an all-star and never wanted to leave. Nothing wrong with appreciating that but that shouldn't be enough. When I think of his tenure I just think of a flawed player who worked hard to become an all-star thanks in large part to playing alongside the goat Kyle Lowry and be on a team run by another goat Masai and became overrated by many in the process.

championship >>>>>> longevity.

him and vc can compete for 3rd.

DD was the man while he was here & genuinely wanting to be here. But it’s Kawhi - well at least in my books.

He was the biggest waste of time in Raptors’ history that’s for sure.

That’s tough, Vince has the worst management to deal with but gave theist excitement and left earliest. DeMar dedicated himself wholeheartedly so he gets a point there, but he was also given a lot of opportunity and except for a few games has had pretty bad playoffs with us, even if Lowry struggled shooting sometimes he still stepped up with winning plays when it mattered, not so much DeMar.
I say 2nd goes down as Chris Bosh. I know his impact went down with the heat, he was a glorified Channing Frye that missed big playoff shots. But before he left us he was a bonafide write in Allstar year to year, something that was more of a guessing game for DD. That and he played his career with us under the same terrible initial ownership from the time of Vince, to the mediocre ownership with BC. Had we had Masai I think Bosh would be more inclined to stay (May even be traded) as he’d see our chances of improving. He did re-sign once with BC so I’ll give him that, and he didn’t take 3-4 seasons of bad shots before he started making them like DD, he was always an effective option on offence who just never had much of a supporting cast.

For now. I suspect siakam will take that number 2 spot over his contract and number 1 if he signs another here.

This is just a rehash of the tenure vs. peak debate, and how long one needs of the former to overcome the latter (or vice-versa).

I think Demar, Vince and Bosh are directly comparable, as they were here 9, 7 and 7 years respectively. It's notable that Vince lost significant time due to injuries (half the season in 02-03 and 20 games in 01-02) and was also traded early in his last season. This is why he played over 100 fewer games than Bosh, who in turn played over 150 games fewer than Demar as a Raptor.

Roughly comparing individual and team success as Raptors:
- Bosh - 5 time All Star, 3 times in Top 10 for PPG and 2 times for RPG, 1 Time All-NBA (2nd Team), 3 playoff wins (2 first round exits)
- Vince - 5 time All Star, 4 times in Top 10 for PPG, 2 Time All-NBA (2nd Team and 3rd Team), 6 playoff wins (Knicks sweep and loss to Philly in ECF)
- Demar - 4 time All Star, 3 times in Top 10 for PPG, 2 Time All-NBA (2nd and 3rd Team), 21 playoff wins (the Lebron years, including the ECF loss)

Largely due to Demar's durability and his longer tenure, he dominates most of the offensive scoring counting stats for the franchise. Bosh is still up there for rebounding and blocks:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/leaders_career.html

I think the differences in individual achievement are slight. I think the big difference between the three is team and playoff success, and that's where Demar stomps all over the other two. Right or wrong, Casey cast Demar as the primary offensive option during his entire tenure here and ran iso-schemes that locked up a lot of Kyle's value, who should've been the true GOAT all along.

Team success as the Raps' "Alpha" combined with longer individual sustained success (even if slightly lower than the other two) puts Demar on top IMO. I'd rank them Demar > Vince = Bosh.

As for where Kawhi fits in all this, I don't know how you objectively measure the single greatest season in franchise history vs. players who've been Raptors for a long time. He'll go down with 60 load-managed regular season games as a Raptor, but 16 glorious playoff wins and a 'chip as MVP.

Ultimately it's an individual judgment call. Here's how I rank my Top 5:
1. Kyle
2. Demar
3. Kawhi
4. Vince
5. Bosh

I think Pascal has an inside track to be #2 eventually, if he stays healthy and the Raps stay relatively successful.

DeMar is without a doubt the second best player in franchise history. Kawhi would have been if he had re-signed but that didn't happen.

If DeMar doesn't put in all the hard work Colangelo wouldn't have even traded for Kyle in the first place.
If DeMar doesn't put in all the hard work we don't get the All Star Game in 2016.
If DeMar doesn't put in all the hard work Drake never becomes Team Ambassador.

You guys don't give him enough credit. He was the one who said, "I got us" when we had just had a third all star leave us. He was the one who said "I AM TORONTO" when we thought no one would ever rep the city. He was the first to sign his third contract here.

He showed us how to believe in ourselves and our city before Masai and if you can't remember that then either you weren't here for the really **** seasons or you've forgotten how far we've come.

P.S. I have changed my stance on jersey retirement however. Now that we have won a title and I can look at everything holistically, I believe we should eventually have a level of excellence and that I would put Kyle, DeMar, Vince, Chris and Kawhi there. But only Kyle Lowry deserves to have his jersey retired.

Hes right behind Lowry for sure. You can dislike his game all you want but he was one of the main reasons why this franchise became a winning franchise for all these years. People have short memories.

First off, why do you guys keep letting Basketball_Jones troll you? It's almost comical at this point.

Second off, to answer the question, no. In one season Kawhi brought us a championship. He is going to always be ahead of DeRozan.

Longevity takes a back seat to a championship every single time in my book.