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Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0

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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3801 » by fbalmeida » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:30 pm

Let's be serious here. Lebron's chance of dethroning Jordan as the unquestioned GOAT has already come and gone for quite some time now.

Jordan retired precisely at Lebron's current age with decidedly greater statistical, individual, and collective feats.

Even if Lebron manages to finish his career equalling Jordan in titles and NBA Finals MVPs by somehow adding two more of each at the age of 36 and 37 (he won't, but let's assume he will for the sake of argument), he will indeed have a claim as the GOAT via longevity, but never by out-peaking or outperforming his Airness in their respective primes.

Those of you who are too young to have seen him will just have to take those who aren't, on their word: the league has yet to see the likes of someone who could singlehandedly dominate nearly every aspect of nearly every minute of nearly every basketball game, on both ends of the court, for several seasons on end, like Michael Jordan did.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3802 » by Kingsway_fan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:04 pm

fbalmeida wrote:Let's be serious here. Lebron's chance of dethroning Jordan as the unquestioned GOAT has already come and gone for quite some time now.

Jordan retired precisely at Lebron's current age with decidedly greater statistical, individual, and collective feats.

Even if Lebron manages to finish his career equalling Jordan in titles and NBA Finals MVPs by somehow adding two more of each at the age of 36 and 37 (he won't, but let's assume he will for the sake of argument), he will indeed have a claim as the GOAT via longevity, but never by out-peaking or outperforming his Airness in their respective primes.

Those of you who are too young to have seen him will just have to take those who aren't, on their word: the league has yet to see the likes of someone who could singlehandedly dominate nearly every aspect of nearly every minute of nearly every basketball game, on both ends of the court, for several seasons on end, like Michael Jordan did.


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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3803 » by ash_k » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:21 pm

Those LeBron vs GOATs will never go away, I get it now.
Before this Season, LeBron was 1-8 in his last 9 NBA Finals. (a GOAT?)

Against Dallas, in the NBA finals, he averaged 17.8pts in 6 games (a GOAT?)
In his first finals, he shot 35.1 FG% (a GOAT?)

Last night, once again, we were reminded why Jimmy Butler cannot be considered an elite player. 12 points(12!) coming off 35 points.

I keep hearing LeBron is currently the best player in the NBA, but the last couple of seasons Giannis has won 2xMVPs and DPOY while carrying his team to the best record in the NBA without any top-tier level teammate which is something LeBron has never done. LeBron has not won a MVP in his 30s (a GOAT?)

This LeBron vs GOAT will always baffle me because I just don't think it is even close!
LeBron is uniquely gifted physically and that's always been his advantage over everyone(from highschool to today). Had Kobe been 6'8 250, he would have won at least 2 more titles. Had GOAT been 6'8 250 with his game&mindset and without retiring, he might have gone to the Finals from 1989 to 1999 (and won every single title in the process).

Nobody can doubt LeBron's greatness, but ultimately this game is mostly mental which is what will always separate GOAT from everyone else (LeBron included)
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3804 » by fbalmeida » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:22 pm

Wilt won two titles in 14 seasons.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3805 » by mademan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:31 pm

fbalmeida wrote:Let's be serious here. Lebron's chance of dethroning Jordan as the unquestioned GOAT has already come and gone for quite some time now.

Jordan retired precisely at Lebron's current age with decidedly greater statistical, individual, and collective feats.

Even if Lebron manages to finish his career equalling Jordan in titles and NBA Finals MVPs by somehow adding two more of each at the age of 36 and 37 (he won't, but let's assume he will for the sake of argument), he will indeed have a claim as the GOAT via longevity, but never by out-peaking or outperforming his Airness in their respective primes.

Those of you who are too young to have seen him will just have to take those who aren't, on their word: the league has yet to see the likes of someone who could singlehandedly dominate nearly every aspect of nearly every minute of nearly every basketball game, on both ends of the court, for several seasons on end, like Michael Jordan did.


Lebron absolutely has a claim for best peak, best prime and will certainly have the greatest longevity (Kareem being the only comparison).
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3806 » by B-Ball Freak » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:43 pm

The crazy thing is Lebron looks like he still got plenty left in the tank, if the Lakers load manage him properly in the regular season he's probably good for another 2-3 deep playoff runs.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3807 » by B-Ball Freak » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:47 pm

Morse Code wrote:Screw AD, screw LBJ and screw all the ring chasing losers that can’t do anything without a super team. An embarrassment to the league, and a stain on the history of basketball.


This dude saaalty as hell lol. I'm not gonna laugh at you too much because it's close to what I feel whenever Brady wins a Super Bowl, except I acknowledge and respect the greatness though.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3808 » by fbalmeida » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:08 pm

mademan wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:Let's be serious here. Lebron's chance of dethroning Jordan as the unquestioned GOAT has already come and gone for quite some time now.

Jordan retired precisely at Lebron's current age with decidedly greater statistical, individual, and collective feats.

Even if Lebron manages to finish his career equalling Jordan in titles and NBA Finals MVPs by somehow adding two more of each at the age of 36 and 37 (he won't, but let's assume he will for the sake of argument), he will indeed have a claim as the GOAT via longevity, but never by out-peaking or outperforming his Airness in their respective primes.

Those of you who are too young to have seen him will just have to take those who aren't, on their word: the league has yet to see the likes of someone who could singlehandedly dominate nearly every aspect of nearly every minute of nearly every basketball game, on both ends of the court, for several seasons on end, like Michael Jordan did.


Lebron absolutely has a claim for best peak, best prime and will certainly have the greatest longevity (Kareem being the only comparison).


Well sure, but only if you ignore how both Jordan's regular season and post-season defensive play is on a completely different level than Lebron's. But in that case, we're no longer discussing best player, but best player in terms of offensive impact. Defense is at least half of the game. The permanent intensity of Jordan's two-way play, right up until he was 40, has no match in the history of this game.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3809 » by mademan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:13 pm

fbalmeida wrote:
mademan wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:Let's be serious here. Lebron's chance of dethroning Jordan as the unquestioned GOAT has already come and gone for quite some time now.

Jordan retired precisely at Lebron's current age with decidedly greater statistical, individual, and collective feats.

Even if Lebron manages to finish his career equalling Jordan in titles and NBA Finals MVPs by somehow adding two more of each at the age of 36 and 37 (he won't, but let's assume he will for the sake of argument), he will indeed have a claim as the GOAT via longevity, but never by out-peaking or outperforming his Airness in their respective primes.

Those of you who are too young to have seen him will just have to take those who aren't, on their word: the league has yet to see the likes of someone who could singlehandedly dominate nearly every aspect of nearly every minute of nearly every basketball game, on both ends of the court, for several seasons on end, like Michael Jordan did.


Lebron absolutely has a claim for best peak, best prime and will certainly have the greatest longevity (Kareem being the only comparison).


Well sure, but only if you ignore how both Jordan's regular season and post-season defensive play is on a completely different level than Lebron's. But in that case, we're no longer discussing best player, but best player in terms of offensive impact. Defense is at least half of the game. The permanent intensity of Jordan's two-way play, right up until he was 40, has no match in the history of this game.


Lebrons a better defender than Jordan bro.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3810 » by Rob Diaz » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:11 pm

Jordan’s resume will never be surpassed because he was in the right place at the right time. Perfect circumstances, shallow talent pool before the league had fully expanded to the international level, a ton of white Americans, limited perimeter competition, etc. We will never see anybody benefit from those circumstances ever again. Too much competition and worldwide talent, free agency era, social media analyzing every possession and many other reasons.

Realistically, you could have replaced him with 10-15 players and still won 6 rings in that era.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3811 » by fbalmeida » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:08 pm

mademan wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:
mademan wrote:
Lebron absolutely has a claim for best peak, best prime and will certainly have the greatest longevity (Kareem being the only comparison).


Well sure, but only if you ignore how both Jordan's regular season and post-season defensive play is on a completely different level than Lebron's. But in that case, we're no longer discussing best player, but best player in terms of offensive impact. Defense is at least half of the game. The permanent intensity of Jordan's two-way play, right up until he was 40, has no match in the history of this game.


Lebrons a better defender than Jordan bro.


:crazy:

I can't ask you to watch the games and notice how Jordan would seem to swallow players whole, but I can ask you to look at their defensive stats and accolades.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3812 » by mademan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:13 pm

fbalmeida wrote:
mademan wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:
Well sure, but only if you ignore how both Jordan's regular season and post-season defensive play is on a completely different level than Lebron's. But in that case, we're no longer discussing best player, but best player in terms of offensive impact. Defense is at least half of the game. The permanent intensity of Jordan's two-way play, right up until he was 40, has no match in the history of this game.


Lebrons a better defender than Jordan bro.


:crazy:

I can't ask you to watch the games and notice how Jordan would seem to swallow players whole, but I can ask you to look at their defensive stats and accolades.


The defensive accolades that paint Kobe as a defensive stopper? Years after he stopped playing defense too, lol. And Jordan got DPOY, cool. Lebron got 2nd twice.

And Jordan can swallow players whole cause nobodies coming for a screen. Besides Durant, no player ever attacks Lebron 1v1. And Durant might be the single greatest scoring weapon in the history of the league
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3813 » by Rob Diaz » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:46 pm

I always found it unfair that so many Raptors fans dislike Green for his playoffs struggles last year. I viewed him as the playoffs sacrifice for the load management plan. He was a big part of the team’s RS success and more importantly, guarding the best player every night to keep Kawhi on the load management plan for the playoffs. It’s evident that his body can’t handle more than 15 mpg anymore, that should have been his role last year, as well.

It’s not his fault that the Lakers were dumb enough to give a declining 33-year old role player a prominent role and big money deal after the worst playoffs run of his career lol.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3814 » by Randle McMurphy » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:26 pm

The gap in cumulative stats is going to be a chasm. Barring injury, LeBron will be the league's all-time leading scorer. (It went unnoticed, but in Game 5 against Miami, LeBron passed Karl Malone for No. 2 all time in combined regular season and postseason points.) He could double Jordan in assists and rebounds. LeBron is not hanging on, compiling stats. He's still the best player. We are still near his peak.

Be careful dismissing LeBron's 10 Finals appearances as the product of a weak East. During Jordan's six title runs, the four highest East seeds aside from Chicago posted a .640 combined winning percentage -- with an average net-rating of plus-4.8 points per 100 possessions, per ESPN Stats & Information research. The same subset during LeBron's run to eight straight Finals: a .623 mark with a net-rating of plus-4.5. As our Kevin Pelton has argued, the player pool is deeper now.

LeBron's ceaselessness must be heard. Jordan did not, or would not, endure this long at the top.

At minimum, it's a debate now. Jordan backers can no longer shout "6-0" and declare it over. Maybe it's a matter of taste. Do you prefer peak value or long-term near-peak consistency? How much do you weigh LeBron's 2011 Finals collapse against Jordan's perfection?

For some, perfection is all that matters. LeBron could never unseat Jordan. To win one game, their answer will always be Jordan -- and in that framing, it's hard to disagree all that strongly.

But the totality of LeBron's career is undeniable. If he wins one more title, and has maybe two more seasons almost on par with this one, the grounds for Jordan as the greatest ever -- the criteria by which he "wins" the debate -- will get precariously narrow. There is a chance, maybe a good one, LeBron drives this GOAT conversation closer to a consensus than anyone would have imagined possible a decade ago.


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30070633/lebron-james-vs-michael-jordan-why-goat-debate-different-now

MJ fans can continue holding onto that sliver of an argument ("6-0!"), but that position is only to become increasingly tenuous as the years go on and LeBron continues to amass records, accomplishments, and titles. He is the greatest to ever play the game and soon it will be irrefutable.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3815 » by ash_k » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:03 am

Randle McMurphy wrote:
Spoiler:
The gap in cumulative stats is going to be a chasm. Barring injury, LeBron will be the league's all-time leading scorer. (It went unnoticed, but in Game 5 against Miami, LeBron passed Karl Malone for No. 2 all time in combined regular season and postseason points.) He could double Jordan in assists and rebounds. LeBron is not hanging on, compiling stats. He's still the best player. We are still near his peak.

Be careful dismissing LeBron's 10 Finals appearances as the product of a weak East. During Jordan's six title runs, the four highest East seeds aside from Chicago posted a .640 combined winning percentage -- with an average net-rating of plus-4.8 points per 100 possessions, per ESPN Stats & Information research. The same subset during LeBron's run to eight straight Finals: a .623 mark with a net-rating of plus-4.5. As our Kevin Pelton has argued, the player pool is deeper now.

LeBron's ceaselessness must be heard. Jordan did not, or would not, endure this long at the top.

At minimum, it's a debate now. Jordan backers can no longer shout "6-0" and declare it over. Maybe it's a matter of taste. Do you prefer peak value or long-term near-peak consistency? How much do you weigh LeBron's 2011 Finals collapse against Jordan's perfection?

For some, perfection is all that matters. LeBron could never unseat Jordan. To win one game, their answer will always be Jordan -- and in that framing, it's hard to disagree all that strongly.

But the totality of LeBron's career is undeniable. If he wins one more title, and has maybe two more seasons almost on par with this one, the grounds for Jordan as the greatest ever -- the criteria by which he "wins" the debate -- will get precariously narrow. There is a chance, maybe a good one, LeBron drives this GOAT conversation closer to a consensus than anyone would have imagined possible a decade ago.


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30070633/lebron-james-vs-michael-jordan-why-goat-debate-different-now


MJ fans can continue holding onto that sliver of an argument ("6-0!"), but that position is only to become increasingly tenuous as the years go on and LeBron continues to amass records, accomplishments, and titles. He is the greatest to ever play the game and soon it will be irrefutable.

Actually LeBroners like to pretend that it is the only argument. Your belief in LeBron can be described as admirable

Finals MVP: 6 vs 4
Regular season MVP: 5 vs4
DPOY: 1 and 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team vs 0 and 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team(even Giannis was able to do a MVP and DPOY in the same season)
10×NBA scoring champion vs 1xNBA scoring champion (so the future NBA leading scorer would have won the scoring champ only once?!)
Against 60-win teams in the playoffs: GOAT (7-2) vs LeBron (3-4) GOAT has never played with offensive talents like Wade, Kyrie and AD.
PER : 27.91 vs 27.49

Difficult to act like we have not seen him get swept twice in the finals.Difficult to forget that it was 1-8 in his last 9 NBA Finals game prior to this season: Outdueled by KD in clutch time and outdueled by Kawhi for MVP. Iggy got the MVP for his impact on him. Both Dirk and Terry outdueled him in crunchtime. It is not close, but one cannot live without hope :wink:
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3816 » by fbalmeida » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:59 am

There's little debate to be had here, unless Lebron adds two more championships playing at an MVP-type level. And even then we'd be discussing if the artifice of Lebron's longevity makes him a greater player than Jordan's decade-long superior 2-way statistical and collective dominance, interrupted only by an impromptu voluntary hiatus. To say nothing of the fact of how Jordan's dominance was manifested in an era dominated by bigs and defensive drudgery.

You simply cannot have claimed to have seen both MJ and LBJ play, and claim LBJ is the greater individual player at any moment of his career.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3817 » by Kingsway_fan » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:07 am

fbalmeida wrote:Wilt won two titles in 14 seasons.


Is it a team award or individual?... he was never surrounded by the talent that Jordan and lebron was....
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3818 » by fbalmeida » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:40 am

Kingsway_fan wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:Wilt won two titles in 14 seasons.


Is it a team award or individual?... he was never surrounded by the talent that Jordan and lebron was....


Some of Wilt's statistics are absolutely freakish but it would be laughably false to state that his post-season failures were due to playing for bad teams. Wilt played with Paul Arizin, Guy Rodgers, Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Happy Hairston, and Gail Goodrich.

At one point, Wilt lost a finals to the Knicks playing on a Lakers team that featured four +20 ppg scorers.

He simply had weaknesses that became exploitable over a seven game series.

Jordan had no such weaknesses.
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3819 » by 720 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:26 pm

fbalmeida wrote:
Kingsway_fan wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:Wilt won two titles in 14 seasons.


Is it a team award or individual?... he was never surrounded by the talent that Jordan and lebron was....


Some of Wilt's statistics are absolutely freakish but it would be laughably false to state that his post-season failures were due to playing for bad teams. Wilt played with Paul Arizin, Guy Rodgers, Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Happy Hairston, and Gail Goodrich.

At one point, Wilt lost a finals to the Knicks playing on a Lakers team that featured four +20 ppg scorers.

He simply had weaknesses that became exploitable over a seven game series.

Jordan had no such weaknesses.

Why are we comparing eras like when wilt played and when Michael played were even remotely the same?
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Re: Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0 

Post#3820 » by gerrit4 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:54 pm

ash_k wrote:
Randle McMurphy wrote:
Spoiler:
The gap in cumulative stats is going to be a chasm. Barring injury, LeBron will be the league's all-time leading scorer. (It went unnoticed, but in Game 5 against Miami, LeBron passed Karl Malone for No. 2 all time in combined regular season and postseason points.) He could double Jordan in assists and rebounds. LeBron is not hanging on, compiling stats. He's still the best player. We are still near his peak.

Be careful dismissing LeBron's 10 Finals appearances as the product of a weak East. During Jordan's six title runs, the four highest East seeds aside from Chicago posted a .640 combined winning percentage -- with an average net-rating of plus-4.8 points per 100 possessions, per ESPN Stats & Information research. The same subset during LeBron's run to eight straight Finals: a .623 mark with a net-rating of plus-4.5. As our Kevin Pelton has argued, the player pool is deeper now.

LeBron's ceaselessness must be heard. Jordan did not, or would not, endure this long at the top.

At minimum, it's a debate now. Jordan backers can no longer shout "6-0" and declare it over. Maybe it's a matter of taste. Do you prefer peak value or long-term near-peak consistency? How much do you weigh LeBron's 2011 Finals collapse against Jordan's perfection?

For some, perfection is all that matters. LeBron could never unseat Jordan. To win one game, their answer will always be Jordan -- and in that framing, it's hard to disagree all that strongly.

But the totality of LeBron's career is undeniable. If he wins one more title, and has maybe two more seasons almost on par with this one, the grounds for Jordan as the greatest ever -- the criteria by which he "wins" the debate -- will get precariously narrow. There is a chance, maybe a good one, LeBron drives this GOAT conversation closer to a consensus than anyone would have imagined possible a decade ago.


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30070633/lebron-james-vs-michael-jordan-why-goat-debate-different-now


MJ fans can continue holding onto that sliver of an argument ("6-0!"), but that position is only to become increasingly tenuous as the years go on and LeBron continues to amass records, accomplishments, and titles. He is the greatest to ever play the game and soon it will be irrefutable.

Actually LeBroners like to pretend that it is the only argument. Your belief in LeBron can be described as admirable

Finals MVP: 6 vs 4
Regular season MVP: 5 vs4
DPOY: 1 and 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team vs 0 and 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team(even Giannis was able to do a MVP and DPOY in the same season)
10×NBA scoring champion vs 1xNBA scoring champion (so the future NBA leading scorer would have won the scoring champ only once?!)
Against 60-win teams in the playoffs: GOAT (7-2) vs LeBron (3-4) GOAT has never played with offensive talents like Wade, Kyrie and AD.
PER : 27.91 vs 27.49

Difficult to act like we have not seen him get swept twice in the finals.Difficult to forget that it was 1-8 in his last 9 NBA Finals game prior to this season: Outdueled by KD in clutch time and outdueled by Kawhi for MVP. Iggy got the MVP for his impact on him. Both Dirk and Terry outdueled him in crunchtime. It is not close, but one cannot live without hope :wink:


I'd argue that some of those stats you've brought up are pretty selective. I'd say it's pretty undeniable that Lebron deserved the Finals MVP in 2015 - he played a much better series than Igoudala.

Regular season MVP is a tough one because both deserved it more than they got (Voters got tired of MJ & Lebron winning). I'd argue that being known as the best player in the league is more important than winning the MVP, which I'd imagine is either pretty close or in Lebron's favour.

NBA scoring champion - for some reason you bring up the difference in points per game - judging a player by PPG is probably the worst way to purely judge a player. I mean, have you ever brought that up in an argument for anyone else? For some reason you're ignoring Lebron's FG% and 3pt% being higher, as well as his rebounds and assists.

MJ never played with offensive talents like Wade, Kyrie, AD. But he did play with Pippen in his Prime, who was a better all around player than Wade (while Lebron was on the Heat) and a much better all-around player than Kyrie. Pippen is a top 30 all-time player! And those Bulls teams weren't as top heavy as Lebron's championship teams, but they were amazing teams.

PER is close enough.

For some reason people compare their finals records, but not their playoff records - which are almost identical. Is it somehow better to lose in the first round than in the finals?

How many championships did MJ win without a top 5 all-time coach?

I'd also argue that MJ never had to play against a team as good as the Curry-Durant-Thompson etc Warriors. That team was one of the most stacked ever.

Of course, after all that arguing, I actually do think that MJ is the greatest of all-time. He was so dominant on both sides of the ball, and the 6-0 finals record is really incredible. MJ never had to leave the Bulls and start a "super team," and I do genuinely believe he could have become a better 3pt shooter if he was in today's NBA and needed to. He also doesn't have the black mark on his career like the finals vs. the Mavs.

I do think it's worth a conversation though, and if Lebron was to win two more championships he'd probably get my vote. But that's really difficult! It's probably unlikely Lebron stays at this level long enough to win two more where he's still a top guy.

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