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Vince Carter officially retires

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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#121 » by beanbag » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:14 am

Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
Again you were the only one that brought up VC's departure in 2004 in the first place.

Nobody was discussing it until you brought it up.

I disagreed with you and you are still butt hurt that I utterly destroyed your premise so you need to resort to personal attacks.

It's a bit pathetic.


If you refer to page 1 of the thread, his departure is referenced in posts #4 and #6 prior to my mentioning of it.

Also it's 2020, maybe stop using the term "butthurt".


I responded to you because i disagreed with your premise, so I have no idea why you are diverting to other people.

You lied and claimed I initiated this discussion when that was blatantly false.

Also you contradicted yourself...if others mentioned it before you then why did you feel the need to engage over it when you now call me a weirdo for responding to you. UNBELIEVABLE, LOL.

Keep digging a hole...it's getting deeper and deeper.


All this over a difference of opinion. Why are you so upset?

To me, it is one thing to say what he did 17 years ago was foul. It is another thing still be upset about it today. That second part is never not going to be weird to me. I'm not sure what hole I'm digging, I'm saying the same thing to you over and over again.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#122 » by OGLife » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:22 am

beanbag wrote:
OGLife wrote:
beanbag wrote:
Well that settles it then. You win the debate off the strength of your anecdotal evidence of seeing more Kobe and AI gear.

Ah, sticking to personal attacks instead of getting stats to support your claim of how VC made basketball more popular in Canada...


You haven't presented facts. The closest thing to a fact here was me pointing you to a documentary that discusses the effect he has had.

Meanwhile, you have told me about the amount of jerseys you saw 20 years ago and this idea that all your friends were Lakers fans.

There are undoubtedly Lakers fans in Toronto, but you know what there is way more of? Raptors fans.

You said VC made guys play basketball because of a documentary...I said that they grew up in an athletic family and/or these guys parents were from out of country that moved here.

Then you said there were more Raptors fans than Lakers fans. That is true, however, how is that even something that had to do with VC...I have never heard of poor ticket sells, even during our worse of worse years. Thus, why I mentioned you to bring me ticket sell prices prior to VC being a Raptor. Also, my whole thing about the Lakers, Kobe and AI were that basketball was already popular in Canada. Canada got 2 basketball teams in 1995, it has nothing to do with VC.

Are we going to claim that Lowry, DD, etc made it even more popular?

What information, other that a basis documentary, would you use to support VC making basketball popular in Canada...
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#123 » by beanbag » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:32 am

OGLife wrote:
beanbag wrote:
OGLife wrote:Ah, sticking to personal attacks instead of getting stats to support your claim of how VC made basketball more popular in Canada...


You haven't presented facts. The closest thing to a fact here was me pointing you to a documentary that discusses the effect he has had.

Meanwhile, you have told me about the amount of jerseys you saw 20 years ago and this idea that all your friends were Lakers fans.

There are undoubtedly Lakers fans in Toronto, but you know what there is way more of? Raptors fans.

You said VC made guys play basketball because of a documentary...I said that they grew up in an athletic family and/or these guys parents were from out of country that moved here.

Then you said there were more Raptors fans than Lakers fans. That is true, however, how is that even something that had to do with VC...I have never heard of poor ticket sells, even during our worse of worse years. Thus, why I mentioned you to bring me ticket sell prices prior to VC being a Raptor. Also, my whole thing about the Lakers, Kobe and AI were that basketball was already popular in Canada. Canada got 2 basketball teams in 1995, it has nothing to do with VC.

Are we going to claim that Lowry, DD, etc made it even more popular?

What information, other that a basis documentary, would you use to support VC making basketball popular in Canada...


No, what I am saying is that the guys who are playing basketball today are talking about the impact Vince had on them.

I'm not saying Vince influenced them, they are. Literally them.

And yes, Lowry and DD have contributed to the popularity of basketball in this country. Kawhi too. I absolutely believe that.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#124 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:09 am

Danny1616 wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
So why are you giving me excuses for hypotheticals that we don't know.

I never disputed that the front-office was pretty terrible at the time, but all we know are VC's words and actions.

VC acted unprofessionally and deliberately set the franchise back. When you are on a contract getting paid 96 million dollars and have 20,000 fans paying their hard-earned money for their seats and they are spending money to buy your merchandise, you don't deliberately not try.

I don't know anyone can excuse VC for his atrocious and childish behavior before the trade.


Rob Babcack set the franchise back himself. Vince wanted to stay and none forced Babcack to accept Nets' awful trade package.



How exactly did Vince "deliberately not try"? He scored 20+ points in a handful of games, including hitting a game-winner at buzzer against Portland Trail Blazers. It's not his fault that Sam Mitchell reduced Vince's minutes into career-low because they had personal issue. He played less than 30 minutes in 9 out of 20 games for Raptors. Vince's stats at New Jersey Nets improved drastically after getting more minutes and never played fewer than 30 minutes in any of his games for them.

;t


Great, you show me one game discounting that he also averaged career lows percentage and efficiency ways in every other category. VC was absolute garbage, sulking on the floor every time he got, being passive, rarely driving to the basket, settling for outside jumpers.

You clearly didn't watch the Raptors at all that season and are fitting a narrative from youtube video highlights.

He played 30 minutes a night and shot 41% from the floor, 32% from 3 and 69% from the line. That same season with NJ he shot 46% from the floor, 43% from 3 and 82% from the line. Please explain to me how his efficiency and percentages were so garbage despite playing in a Sam Mitchell offense which gave players much more freedom compared to Kevin O'Neal's slow ass system a year before. Do you understand the difference between a Kevin O'Neal offensive system and a Sam Mitchell offensive system? Raptors literally went from averaging 88 ppg in 2003-2004 to 101 ppg in 2004-2005. I mean this unbelievable the mental gymnastics you have to go through to justify VC's play.

That literally makes no **** sense.

Enough with giving VC excuses, he acted like a baby, was unprofessional, and quit on the team despite getting paid like a king. I think people forget how well VC was treated in Toronto and by the media despite being **** injured and playing like a passive pussy between 2001 and 2004.

This is revisionist history at its finest.


He did play a lot more minutes on New Jersey Net,s but when you equalize the playing time, Vince actually didn't play well in his early games with the Nets.

Vince's numbers with the Raptors (20 games) with adjusted minutes

- Points: 21.3
- FG%: 41%
- 3P%: 32.2%
- FT%: 69.4%
- Rebound: 4.2
- Steals: 1.7
- Blocks: 1.1
- TO: 1.5

First 10 games with Nets

- Points: 20.9
- FG%: 43.3%
- 3P%: 31.0%
- FT%: 73.1%
- Rebound: 6.3
- Steals: 1.1
- Blocks: 0.5
- TO: 2.7

One thing to keep in mind is he played a lot of forwards after moving to the Nets, which explains the increased rebounds. Otherwise Carter didn't just magically play better with the Nets and he struggled with shooting quite a bit even from the free throw line just as he had done with the Raptors as well earlier in the season. But the narrative of Carter suddenly playing better as soon as he got out of Toronto just took over as the official storyline at some point.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#125 » by Ranger One » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:52 pm

About time. Was sick and tired of hearing about this guy.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#126 » by vado » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:42 pm

I ended up watching the Carter Effect for the first time the other day (years late I know). It was difficult for me to watch growing up a Raptors and VC fan through that era. I can't deny the impact Carter had on basketball on Canada and the film definitely reminded me of how great his rise was with the team. However it was really one sided and rushed through his downfall with the team and had some pretty big omissions. I don't have to agree with his jersey being retired and I don't have to like him again. I'm over it. Hopefully soon we can move on and close the chapter on this guy, we deserve that as a team.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#127 » by phillipmike » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:03 am

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/simmons-in-complicated-times-why-does-no-one-in-blue-jays-ownership-speak-on-behalf-of-the-club/amp

SCENE AND HEARD

My friend, Dave Naylor, had the perfect answer to the question about whether the Raptors should retire Vince Carter’s number and raise his jersey to the rafters at Scotiabank Arena. “Retiring Vince’s number,” TSN’s Naylor wrote on Twitter, “would be like hanging a photo in your room of the girlfriend/boyfriend who dumped you.” You might feel fondly about your ex. But he or she will always remain your ex … In the wake of his retirement all the adulation of Carter’s career, this rarely gets mentioned: NBA superstars change teams. That’s what they do. Carter had the ability to do that — just didn’t accomplish it. In 22 NBA seasons, he made the playoffs 11 times, missed the playoffs 11 times, never won a championship, never played for a team in the Finals. He started 66 playoff games in 22 seasons. What he could have been and should have been is what too many people in Toronto and Canada seem to forget. And the story that he made the Raptors relevant, well, that’s kind of bogus, also. For a short time, they were relevant. And then he left in the disastrous trade and the Raptors basically disappeared with him, going 117-211 the next four seasons. It would be 14 years after Carter’s departure before the Raptors won a playoff round. Carter’s career playoff record: 34 wins, 54 losses. The Raptors shouldn’t honour that … At the same time, Basketball Canada and Canada’s Sports Hall of Fame should honour Carter in some way for changing the game in this country, for getting kids playing, for making basketball cool. That was meaningful across the country — and remains meaningful.


Don’t agree with the ex part but I can’t believe I agree with Steve Simmons on something.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#128 » by Basketball_Jones » Fri Jul 3, 2020 3:55 pm

vado wrote:I ended up watching the Carter Effect for the first time the other day (years late I know). It was difficult for me to watch growing up a Raptors and VC fan through that era. I can't deny the impact Carter had on basketball on Canada and the film definitely reminded me of how great his rise was with the team. However it was really one sided and rushed through his downfall with the team and had some pretty big omissions. I don't have to agree with his jersey being retired and I don't have to like him again. I'm over it. Hopefully soon we can move on and close the chapter on this guy, we deserve that as a team.


I finally watched it. I thought it was corny, and really glossed over a lot. Agreed it felt rushed. It’s funny seeing some of the interviews back when Vince was just annoyed and pissed off. “I don’t wanna dunk anymore” is like something Lowry could have said when he’s in one of his moods lol. Wish it had more side stories, like the night club stuff.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#129 » by DIEHARD_005 » Fri Jul 3, 2020 7:52 pm

phillipmike wrote:https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/simmons-in-complicated-times-why-does-no-one-in-blue-jays-ownership-speak-on-behalf-of-the-club/amp

SCENE AND HEARD

My friend, Dave Naylor, had the perfect answer to the question about whether the Raptors should retire Vince Carter’s number and raise his jersey to the rafters at Scotiabank Arena. “Retiring Vince’s number,” TSN’s Naylor wrote on Twitter, “would be like hanging a photo in your room of the girlfriend/boyfriend who dumped you.” You might feel fondly about your ex. But he or she will always remain your ex … In the wake of his retirement all the adulation of Carter’s career, this rarely gets mentioned: NBA superstars change teams. That’s what they do. Carter had the ability to do that — just didn’t accomplish it. In 22 NBA seasons, he made the playoffs 11 times, missed the playoffs 11 times, never won a championship, never played for a team in the Finals. He started 66 playoff games in 22 seasons. What he could have been and should have been is what too many people in Toronto and Canada seem to forget. And the story that he made the Raptors relevant, well, that’s kind of bogus, also. For a short time, they were relevant. And then he left in the disastrous trade and the Raptors basically disappeared with him, going 117-211 the next four seasons. It would be 14 years after Carter’s departure before the Raptors won a playoff round. Carter’s career playoff record: 34 wins, 54 losses. The Raptors shouldn’t honour that … At the same time, Basketball Canada and Canada’s Sports Hall of Fame should honour Carter in some way for changing the game in this country, for getting kids playing, for making basketball cool. That was meaningful across the country — and remains meaningful.


Don’t agree with the ex part but I can’t believe I agree with Steve Simmons on something.


I agree with none of that. Pinning the Raptors 14 years of obscurity on Vince is actually pointing the finger back at the Raptors as an organization - they had 14 years to turn the ship around. Even if you argue (rightfully so) that the Raptors got fleeced on the deal for VC, there was still multiple GMs who had a chance to right the ship (and BC did for a period of time) but ultimately it was management that failed the team for a longer period of time than Vince ever did. No doubt, Vince's diminished value between 02-04 did hurt the deal we could have got for trading him, but as Naylor himself says the Raps didn't have a playoff round win for FOURTEEN years after VC's trade. Is that on VC or on MLSE?
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#130 » by Tacoma » Fri Jul 3, 2020 8:34 pm

phillipmike wrote:https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/simmons-in-complicated-times-why-does-no-one-in-blue-jays-ownership-speak-on-behalf-of-the-club/amp

SCENE AND HEARD

My friend, Dave Naylor, had the perfect answer to the question about whether the Raptors should retire Vince Carter’s number and raise his jersey to the rafters at Scotiabank Arena. “Retiring Vince’s number,” TSN’s Naylor wrote on Twitter, “would be like hanging a photo in your room of the girlfriend/boyfriend who dumped you.” You might feel fondly about your ex. But he or she will always remain your ex … In the wake of his retirement all the adulation of Carter’s career, this rarely gets mentioned: NBA superstars change teams. That’s what they do. Carter had the ability to do that — just didn’t accomplish it. In 22 NBA seasons, he made the playoffs 11 times, missed the playoffs 11 times, never won a championship, never played for a team in the Finals. He started 66 playoff games in 22 seasons. What he could have been and should have been is what too many people in Toronto and Canada seem to forget. And the story that he made the Raptors relevant, well, that’s kind of bogus, also. For a short time, they were relevant. And then he left in the disastrous trade and the Raptors basically disappeared with him, going 117-211 the next four seasons. It would be 14 years after Carter’s departure before the Raptors won a playoff round. Carter’s career playoff record: 34 wins, 54 losses. The Raptors shouldn’t honour that … At the same time, Basketball Canada and Canada’s Sports Hall of Fame should honour Carter in some way for changing the game in this country, for getting kids playing, for making basketball cool. That was meaningful across the country — and remains meaningful.


Don’t agree with the ex part but I can’t believe I agree with Steve Simmons on something.


It's unfair to bring up team record against Vince. Raptors team management, especially Babcock, was hugely incompetent. Vince's best Raptors team in 2001 was with 37-yr old Oakley, Antonio Davis, Dell Curry, Alvin Williams and Chris Childs. None of those players would be starters on last year's or this year's team. Yet Vince led that team to within 1 missed shot of making the ECF Finals and possibly NBA Finals too since they likely would've beat the Bucks. Vince did the best with the team he had.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#131 » by Drygon » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:47 am

Read on Twitter


Here's some of the comments about Vince Carter's career for Toronto Raptors.....



Jack Armstrong made his debut as a color commentator for the Raptors during the 1998-99 season, the same year Carter joined the NBA. To this day, he still remembers Carter’s dunk over Dikembe Mutombo during his rookie season.

Spoiler:
“When you watched Vince Carter, you were like, ‘Whoa, wow.’ There were things that he did that just jumped off the page with you. You know this kid had it. He just had remarkable potential and a feel for the game. The dunk over Dikembe, I remember thinking, ‘He’s not going to do that! He can’t do that! Oh my god, he did it!’ Dikembe is a tremendous rim protector and an intimidating force. For Vince to go in there with such force and confidence, it spoke volumes about how well he thought his chances were. He was just fearless. Vince wasn’t intimidated by anybody.

“I also remember the 2001 playoff run. Even though the Raptors lost to the Sixers, it was an epic series between Allen Iverson and Vince Carter. There was just incredible jubilation and joy at the Air Canada Centre. You have to remember, basketball was a new thing in Canada, it was only year six of the NBA in Toronto. I remember after the Raptors won Game 6 at home to force a deciding game in Philadelphia. I walked out on Bay Street in downtown Toronto and you just saw people honking horns and waving flags and the series wasn’t even over yet. It was one of those moments where you thought: this thing’s got a chance here. It spoke to the impact Vince made on basketball in Canada.”


Chuck Swirsky also joined the Raptors during the 1998-99 season as their play-by-play voice, and remembers a regular-season game in 2000 when Carter had an all-time alley-oop late in the fourth quarter and later hit the game winning three against the Clippers at the buzzer.

Spoiler:
“My radio call on the alley-oop was, ‘He’s soaring through the heavens in the City of Angels.’ I never took Vince for granted. You could count three times a game where he was doing a variety of slams, whether it was windmills, tomahawks, two-handed reverse dunks, it was just unbelievable. When he hit that shot against the Clippers at Staples Center, there was just a scrum on the floor and everyone was mobbing Vince. It was wild. I remember we had Bill Walton on our postgame radio show. He was doing television with Ralph Lawler at the time for the Clippers. We had Bill on. We had Vince on. I kept the postgame show very long that night. It was just an unbelievable game. We were on the West Coast and it was the wee hours of the morning back in Toronto, but as somebody who had just called the game, I would be doing a disservice to Raptors fans if I didn’t cover every single angle of that game. Mats Sundin was the star of the Toronto Maple Leafs. Carlos Delgado was the star of the Toronto Blue Jays. But Vince Carter was [bigger than] any athlete playing in Toronto.”


Alvin Williams played alongside Carter for six seasons in Toronto. He remembers how opponents would have trouble holding back their excitement at Carter’s in-game dunks, and also has fond memories of watching the 2000 Slam Dunk Contest with his dad.

Spoiler:
“The dunk over Dikembe his rookie season, I was on the court, and I remember him taking off on the baseline. A lot of times when you saw that Vince would sometimes just do a 360 and lay it up. With this one, you knew he was going to take it to Dikembe. I remember Steve Smith, who was on the Atlanta Hawks, just yelling out ‘woooooooooooooooo’ when the dunk happened. It was unbelievable. It was always funny to see the other team’s reactions when Vince dunked. They would talk to me about the dunks. It happened all the time.

“I watched the 2000 Slam Dunk Contest on television with my dad. I had never seen any of those dunks he did in practice. I remember him and Tracy [McGrady] would pull off some dunks when we were in the lay-up line before games. He and Tracy used to take the ball and just jump really high and put it in, they would put the ball in the rim with their whole arm. At the Dunk Contest, Vince added the hanging on the rim with his elbow part. There was a lot of hype going in, and for him to actually perform and fulfill those expectations. I mean he exceeded all expectations. He stepped onto the biggest stage and didn’t disappoint at all. My dad’s commentary that night was the best. He was a huge Vince Carter fan, and he lost it when Vince stuck his arm on the rim. My dad was stuttering like, did he just stick his arm in the rim?? He had no idea what was happening. Nobody had ever seen that before.”


Jalen Rose played with Carter in Toronto, but his favorite memory of Vince came from watching Vince dunk on one of his Pacers teammates.

Spoiler:
“Vince Carter was the Michael Jordan of Toronto. That’s why they called him Air Canada. It was legit. He should have a statue in front of that arena. It’s going to happen. When you unlock Canadian basketball to the rest of the world, when you see so many Canadian basketball players in the NBA, that’s Vince Carter’s legacy in Toronto

“My favorite Vince Carter moment was when I was on the other team. I was still with the Pacers during the 1998-99 season when Vince went baseline on Chris Mullin and pulled off a double-pump reverse dunk on Rik Smits. I remember not seeing anything like that ever before. That was the only thing I could talk about at halftime. I had never seen anybody, maybe other than Dominique Wilkins, do a double-pump dunk so effortlessly in a game like that before.

“It’s hard to not react when you see a play like that, even though he’s on the other team. It’s like when you go to a car wash, you pull up with your car, and somebody pulls up with theirs, and it looks clean, you give them a nod, like, you’re looking good, I like them rims, I like them colors, I like them seats. It’s just professional courtesy. It’s game recognizing game.

“This is blasphemy coming from me, I gotta come from the diaphragm for this time, and this is the first time I’ve said this into the atmosphere, and it hurts me a little bit to say it, like when I finally put LeBron [James] ahead of Larry [Bird] on my list, but when you combine his in-game dunks and the dunk contest, Vince is the most spectacular dunker the NBA has ever seen.”
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#132 » by Dennis 37 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:05 am

Regardless of what you think of Carter as a person, or his talent, the net effect on the team was negative. I will admit that children may have started to play basketball because of him, but how did that translate to the team? What Carter inspired Canadian currently plays for the Raptors or was a significant contributor to the Raptors in the past? What American Carter fan, turned NBA star, decided to sign with the Raptors because of their admiration of Carter?

The team structured contracts to compliment Carter. Contracts that took years to come off the books. His leaving furthered the narrative that stars don't stay in Toronto. That narrative stuck to the team for years.

The narrative that Carter kept the franchise in Toronto is BS. Pre and Post Carter attendance was never an issue. In fact participation on this board, and others, was always higher when we sucked.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#133 » by Tacoma » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:13 pm

Dennis 37 wrote:Regardless of what you think of Carter as a person, or his talent, the net effect on the team was negative. I will admit that children may have started to play basketball because of him, but how did that translate to the team? What Carter inspired Canadian currently plays for the Raptors or was a significant contributor to the Raptors in the past? What American Carter fan, turned NBA star, decided to sign with the Raptors because of their admiration of Carter?

The team structured contracts to compliment Carter. Contracts that took years to come off the books. His leaving furthered the narrative that stars don't stay in Toronto. That narrative stuck to the team for years.

The narrative that Carter kept the franchise in Toronto is BS. Pre and Post Carter attendance was never an issue. In fact participation on this board, and others, was always higher when we sucked.


You're blaming Vince for the incompetence of of Raptors management. Carter's teammates when he became a star with were subpar for a team aiming to go deep into the playoffs. Many, such as Davis, JYD, Williams were overpaid so there wasn't sufficient cap room to sign other stars even if they wanted to play with Vince. Could Raptors management have still done something to create cap room? Of course. But they didn't have the competency to do so. They utterly failed at building around Vince, period. That ain't the fault of Vince.

Vince's Raptors years had the worst management in team history (e.g., as bad as Colangelo was, I'd still take him over Babcock anyday). The answer to all your questions can be answered by: "because Raptors team management sucked!" Hypothetically, had Masai been in charge in those days, there would've been a proper team around Vince and his star power would've been properly managed, and Vince would've never had disagreements with Raptors management that prompted him to ask for a trade.

I do agree with you that the Raptors franchise would've survived without Vince. However, Vince did put Toronto on the map during his time here. Toronto away games were near the top in attendance; Rap stars were wearing his jersey in videos; ESPN had a Vince Dunk of the Week regular slot; we had a Christmas Day game, etc.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#134 » by Dennis 37 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:25 pm

Tacoma wrote:
Dennis 37 wrote:Regardless of what you think of Carter as a person, or his talent, the net effect on the team was negative. I will admit that children may have started to play basketball because of him, but how did that translate to the team? What Carter inspired Canadian currently plays for the Raptors or was a significant contributor to the Raptors in the past? What American Carter fan, turned NBA star, decided to sign with the Raptors because of their admiration of Carter?

The team structured contracts to compliment Carter. Contracts that took years to come off the books. His leaving furthered the narrative that stars don't stay in Toronto. That narrative stuck to the team for years.

The narrative that Carter kept the franchise in Toronto is BS. Pre and Post Carter attendance was never an issue. In fact participation on this board, and others, was always higher when we sucked.


You're blaming Vince for the incompetence of of Raptors management. Carter's teammates when he became a star with were subpar for a team aiming to go deep into the playoffs. Many, such as Davis, JYD, Williams were overpaid so there wasn't sufficient cap room to sign other stars even if they wanted to play with Vince. Could Raptors management have still done something to create cap room? Of course. But they didn't have the competency to do so. They utterly failed at building around Vince, period. That ain't the fault of Vince.

Vince's Raptors years had the worst management in team history (e.g., as bad as Colangelo was, I'd still take him over Babcock anyday). The answer to all your questions can be answered by: "because Raptors team management sucked!" Hypothetically, had Masai been in charge in those days, there would've been a proper team around Vince and his star power would've been properly managed, and Vince would've never had disagreements with Raptors management that prompted him to ask for a trade.

I do agree with you that the Raptors franchise would've survived without Vince. However, Vince did put Toronto on the map during his time here. Toronto away games were near the top in attendance; Rap stars were wearing his jersey in videos; ESPN had a Vince Dunk of the Week regular slot; we had a Christmas Day game, etc.


The map stuff is all BS. For it to have meant anything it had to have had an effect. More effect than one Christmas day game.

1. No significant US based player signed here as a free agent because we were on the map. Not even when Vince was playing his best.
2. No significant US based player asked to be traded here because we were on the map. Not even when Vince was playing his best.
3. Tracy McGrady left here. Or were we not yet on the map?
4. Chris Bosh left here. Didn't anyone say to Chris, "But Chris, we are on the map. You can't leave a team that is on the map." ?
5. Did DeRozan decide to stay because he recognized Toronto was on a map, or did he stay because he was a loyal player? I would suggest the map had nothing to do with it.
6. Kyle Lowry had his bags packed to go to NY. He wasn't jumping up and down crying, "Please don't make me leave a city that is on the map."

Who cares what away attendance was like if it benefitted the team nothing? I think it is much better going into cities and seeing the stands full of Canadians, than bandwagon jumping Americans.

You claim that management sucked. I don't disagree. Because management sucked, and could not be overcome by being on the map, being on the map did not matter. It mattered to nobody.

Not being on the map, did not prevent me from cheering for Mighty Mouse and spare parts. Being on the map did not enhance my enjoyment of Vince during his best before date period. Being on the map had no effect on my interaction with my favorite team.

Being on the map is irrelevant and would be laughed at by any other fan base as a reason to be proud of a player or team. It smacks of collective insecurity.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#135 » by refshateRaps » Sat Aug 1, 2020 12:12 am

Only 3 likes for the OP on this thread

Says alot about his lost connection to our fans. Great initial memories but such an unfortunate aftermath
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#136 » by Drygon » Sat Aug 1, 2020 12:55 am

refshateRaps wrote:Only 3 likes for the OP on this thread

Says alot about his lost connection to our fans. Great initial memories but such an unfortunate aftermath


:lol:

Yeah, Vince is definitely losing sleep about not getting enough likes by random people on an anonymous forum... /s
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#137 » by Scott Hall » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:06 am

refshateRaps wrote:Only 3 likes for the OP on this thread

Says alot about his lost connection to our fans. Great initial memories but such an unfortunate aftermath


Yeah I hate the fact that I lost interest and didn't really care about his retirement at all. I WAS a huge VC fan
but to see the way he went out the last 10 years or so becoming a journeymen and a sad parody of himself with
literally no desire to win or be great was sad to watch.

And the GREAT Vince Carter as a Raptor seems like another life time ago. It's depressing he spent more years
being a journeyman then the electric player he was as a Raptor and Net.
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#138 » by dacrusha » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:48 am

Drygon wrote:
refshateRaps wrote:Only 3 likes for the OP on this thread

Says alot about his lost connection to our fans. Great initial memories but such an unfortunate aftermath


:lol:

Yeah, Vince is definitely losing sleep about not getting enough likes by random people on an anonymous forum... /s


And why would he care when he’s busy booking tee times in yet another year where he’s missed the playoffs?
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#139 » by refshateRaps » Sat Aug 1, 2020 3:34 am

Drygon wrote:
refshateRaps wrote:Only 3 likes for the OP on this thread

Says alot about his lost connection to our fans. Great initial memories but such an unfortunate aftermath


:lol:

Yeah, Vince is definitely losing sleep about not getting enough likes by random people on an anonymous forum... /s


It was just a general observation of how few fans really care, much these days, absolutely nothing to do with VInces sleep or feelings
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Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#140 » by Drygon » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:29 am

Scott Hall wrote:
refshateRaps wrote:Only 3 likes for the OP on this thread

Says alot about his lost connection to our fans. Great initial memories but such an unfortunate aftermath


Yeah I hate the fact that I lost interest and didn't really care about his retirement at all. I WAS a huge VC fan
but to see the way he went out the last 10 years or so becoming a journeymen and a sad parody of himself with
literally no desire to win or be great was sad to watch.

And the GREAT Vince Carter as a Raptor seems like another life time ago. It's depressing he spent more years
being a journeyman then the electric player he was as a Raptor and Net.


I've no idea what you're talking about. Vince has been a quality role player throughout most of 2010s decade & had the longest career in NBA history. Very few previous superstars could make such adjustments for extend their careers. Someone like Allen Iverson retired because he couldn't accept taking a reduced role. Also, Vince has been signing for teams who offered him most playing time & mentoring young players. That's more valuable than a free ring without doing anything (like Jeremy Lin with Raps).

What's sad however are people who are hating on Vince for 15 years & believes false narratives about him during 04/05.

dacrusha wrote:
Drygon wrote:
refshateRaps wrote:Only 3 likes for the OP on this thread

Says alot about his lost connection to our fans. Great initial memories but such an unfortunate aftermath


:lol:

Yeah, Vince is definitely losing sleep about not getting enough likes by random people on an anonymous forum... /s


And why would he care when he’s busy booking tee times in yet another year where he’s missed the playoffs?


You seriously expecting a 43-year-old role player to carry a lottery team to playoffs?

refshateRaps wrote:
Drygon wrote:
refshateRaps wrote:Only 3 likes for the OP on this thread

Says alot about his lost connection to our fans. Great initial memories but such an unfortunate aftermath


:lol:

Yeah, Vince is definitely losing sleep about not getting enough likes by random people on an anonymous forum... /s


It was just a general observation of how few fans really care, much these days, absolutely nothing to do with VInces sleep or feelings


I doubt RealGM is representing an entire fanbase. Vince got tons of reactions for his retirement outside lol.

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