ImageImageImageImageImage

Vince Carter officially retires

Moderators: Patman, pbj, Alfred, Duffman100, Morris_Shatford, DG88, niQ, Rhettmatic

beanbag
Starter
Posts: 2,488
And1: 3,372
Joined: Apr 07, 2012

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#61 » by beanbag » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:48 am

Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
You didn't refute anything...I clearly said management was terrible at the time.

And I don't give a **** about VC...and if you actually read my posts on other threads I wasn't opposed to him bringing him back for the last 3 seasons. I never even boo'd VC because I didn't think he deserved the attention.

But whenever someone tries to blame management instead of VC, I'll point out why that's wrong.

I have the right to dislike how VC handled himself at the time, and not hate VC now.
N
Just like I have the right to like Lebron as a player but hate how he handled himself when he made the "decision" in 2010.

Just like I have the right to respect KD as an unbelievable player, but hate his move to the Warriors and his prima donna attitude.


And just like I have the right to be fine with what he did? Or is that not okay?


You can argue whatever I want.

But when I disagree with you then don’t ask me why I care about it so much and try to make it seem like I’m so concerned about it when you literally initiated the discussion.

Same with the other dude Air Canada. He can’t refute what I said so he referred to me as acting like “ex girlfriend.”

I don’t hate VC, I don’t really care for VC. I just won’t let him off the hook when somebody tried to make excuses for him.

And in a few years I’ll still continue to call KD’s move to the Warriors a loser move, even if I respect his play.


You keep using the word "refute".

There is nothing to refute. You claim Vince quit on the team, which you can't actually prove and you also claim that the fallout was his fault and not management's which is simply a matter of opinion. What is there to refute? What you have is an opinion.
User avatar
SFour
RealGM
Posts: 26,874
And1: 41,837
Joined: Apr 07, 2012
   

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#62 » by SFour » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:55 am

Vince will live with regret for the rest of his life for leaving the Raptors...along with never having won a championship that's enough punishment for him as far as I'm concerned...instead of hating I'll just respect that he put the Raptors on the map and paved the way for basketball in Canada.

Raptors getting a disgruntled Kawhi for that one season was the basketball gods way of repaying the Raptors for when VC tanked his value and wanted out...things balanced out after last season..especially after Kawhi hit that game 7 buzzer beater against the Sixers which VC unfortunately didn't in 2001.

If only the Raptors had a competent organization back then and a leader like Masai I think VC wouldn't have requested a trade.
Image
Mr_NC
Analyst
Posts: 3,407
And1: 4,882
Joined: Dec 16, 2013
 

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#63 » by Mr_NC » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:03 pm

Thank you Vincent Lamar Carter

You put Canada on to Basketball

You put the Raptors on the map

You will get your jersey retired one day
Image
Danny1616
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,688
And1: 7,257
Joined: May 26, 2007

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#64 » by Danny1616 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:40 pm

beanbag wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
And just like I have the right to be fine with what he did? Or is that not okay?


You can argue whatever I want.

But when I disagree with you then don’t ask me why I care about it so much and try to make it seem like I’m so concerned about it when you literally initiated the discussion.

Same with the other dude Air Canada. He can’t refute what I said so he referred to me as acting like “ex girlfriend.”

I don’t hate VC, I don’t really care for VC. I just won’t let him off the hook when somebody tried to make excuses for him.

And in a few years I’ll still continue to call KD’s move to the Warriors a loser move, even if I respect his play.


You keep using the word "refute".

There is nothing to refute. You claim Vince quit on the team, which you can't actually prove and you also claim that the fallout was his fault and not management's which is simply a matter of opinion. What is there to refute? What you have is an opinion.


So the fact that VC averaged career lows statistically, percentage-wise, and efficiency wise isn't proof? The fact that in an interview post-trade he admitted to relying on his talents instead of putting in the proper work?

I never put the whole blame on VC, I said that VC had a right to request a trade, but the way he conducted himself after requesting that trade was atrocious, unacceptable and unprofessional. That is not a matter of opinion, that's just facts.

You can bring up management but all you rely on are hypothetical and hearsay stories that have changed over time. The fact that VC under performed significantly below his usual production is evidence that he deliberately tanked his value and stopped trying. '

You want further proof? This is literally an article written by Bill Simmons while VC was still on the Raptors in 2004.

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/cowbell/041117

the compelling story was Vince Carter, benched for the final 15 minutes of the Portland game last Saturday ... and now we know why. He's a mess. During the pregame "Everyone bunch into a circle and jump up and down" ritual, Chris Bosh accidentally bumped him in the head, so Vince dramatically took three steps back to make sure he was OK, then rejoined the circle with a sarcastic frown. He made his first five jumpers, banged his shooting hand on a collision with Maggette, then spent the rest of the game touching the hand, examining it and swearing to himself ... only he would not-so-coincidentally forget to do this every time he made a basket. When he was angry after not getting the ball before one timeout, he stormed towards the bench, then brushed off a high-five from Donyell Marshall and left poor Donyell hanging.

It went on and on. Forget about the fact that Vince doesn't play defense anymore; that he doesn't bother to box out; that he's shooting pretty much every time he gets the ball (23 shots in 26 minutes against the Clips); that he tries to avoid contact even on plays when he's driving to the basket. His moodiness affected everyone on that team. He's clearly trying to get himself traded -- playing just hard enough so nobody thinks he's dogging it, but acting up just enough so everyone knows he's unhappy. At one point, I honestly thought Rafer Alston was going to punch him.


Everybody knew VC was acting like a disgruntled diva and wasn't putting in the effort. That's why when people like you try to change the narrative I show you why that's categorically false.
User avatar
redeye514
Starter
Posts: 2,318
And1: 2,589
Joined: Jun 05, 2006
Location: Brampton

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#65 » by redeye514 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:30 pm

VCs retirement is just like his career, anti-climatic.
beanbag
Starter
Posts: 2,488
And1: 3,372
Joined: Apr 07, 2012

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#66 » by beanbag » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:24 pm

Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
You can argue whatever I want.

But when I disagree with you then don’t ask me why I care about it so much and try to make it seem like I’m so concerned about it when you literally initiated the discussion.

Same with the other dude Air Canada. He can’t refute what I said so he referred to me as acting like “ex girlfriend.”

I don’t hate VC, I don’t really care for VC. I just won’t let him off the hook when somebody tried to make excuses for him.

And in a few years I’ll still continue to call KD’s move to the Warriors a loser move, even if I respect his play.


You keep using the word "refute".

There is nothing to refute. You claim Vince quit on the team, which you can't actually prove and you also claim that the fallout was his fault and not management's which is simply a matter of opinion. What is there to refute? What you have is an opinion.


So the fact that VC averaged career lows statistically, percentage-wise, and efficiency wise isn't proof? The fact that in an interview post-trade he admitted to relying on his talents instead of putting in the proper work?

I never put the whole blame on VC, I said that VC had a right to request a trade, but the way he conducted himself after requesting that trade was atrocious, unacceptable and unprofessional. That is not a matter of opinion, that's just facts.

You can bring up management but all you rely on are hypothetical and hearsay stories that have changed over time. The fact that VC under performed significantly below his usual production is evidence that he deliberately tanked his value and stopped trying. '

You want further proof? This is literally an article written by Bill Simmons while VC was still on the Raptors in 2004.

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/cowbell/041117

the compelling story was Vince Carter, benched for the final 15 minutes of the Portland game last Saturday ... and now we know why. He's a mess. During the pregame "Everyone bunch into a circle and jump up and down" ritual, Chris Bosh accidentally bumped him in the head, so Vince dramatically took three steps back to make sure he was OK, then rejoined the circle with a sarcastic frown. He made his first five jumpers, banged his shooting hand on a collision with Maggette, then spent the rest of the game touching the hand, examining it and swearing to himself ... only he would not-so-coincidentally forget to do this every time he made a basket. When he was angry after not getting the ball before one timeout, he stormed towards the bench, then brushed off a high-five from Donyell Marshall and left poor Donyell hanging.

It went on and on. Forget about the fact that Vince doesn't play defense anymore; that he doesn't bother to box out; that he's shooting pretty much every time he gets the ball (23 shots in 26 minutes against the Clips); that he tries to avoid contact even on plays when he's driving to the basket. His moodiness affected everyone on that team. He's clearly trying to get himself traded -- playing just hard enough so nobody thinks he's dogging it, but acting up just enough so everyone knows he's unhappy. At one point, I honestly thought Rafer Alston was going to punch him.


Everybody knew VC was acting like a disgruntled diva and wasn't putting in the effort. That's why when people like you try to change the narrative I show you why that's categorically false.


Again, I'm not sure what there is a to refute. I don't care about him doing those things. His boss sucked and deserved to have more of the team be disgruntled.
Danny1616
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,688
And1: 7,257
Joined: May 26, 2007

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#67 » by Danny1616 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:34 pm

beanbag wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
You keep using the word "refute".

There is nothing to refute. You claim Vince quit on the team, which you can't actually prove and you also claim that the fallout was his fault and not management's which is simply a matter of opinion. What is there to refute? What you have is an opinion.


So the fact that VC averaged career lows statistically, percentage-wise, and efficiency wise isn't proof? The fact that in an interview post-trade he admitted to relying on his talents instead of putting in the proper work?

I never put the whole blame on VC, I said that VC had a right to request a trade, but the way he conducted himself after requesting that trade was atrocious, unacceptable and unprofessional. That is not a matter of opinion, that's just facts.

You can bring up management but all you rely on are hypothetical and hearsay stories that have changed over time. The fact that VC under performed significantly below his usual production is evidence that he deliberately tanked his value and stopped trying. '

You want further proof? This is literally an article written by Bill Simmons while VC was still on the Raptors in 2004.

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/cowbell/041117

the compelling story was Vince Carter, benched for the final 15 minutes of the Portland game last Saturday ... and now we know why. He's a mess. During the pregame "Everyone bunch into a circle and jump up and down" ritual, Chris Bosh accidentally bumped him in the head, so Vince dramatically took three steps back to make sure he was OK, then rejoined the circle with a sarcastic frown. He made his first five jumpers, banged his shooting hand on a collision with Maggette, then spent the rest of the game touching the hand, examining it and swearing to himself ... only he would not-so-coincidentally forget to do this every time he made a basket. When he was angry after not getting the ball before one timeout, he stormed towards the bench, then brushed off a high-five from Donyell Marshall and left poor Donyell hanging.

It went on and on. Forget about the fact that Vince doesn't play defense anymore; that he doesn't bother to box out; that he's shooting pretty much every time he gets the ball (23 shots in 26 minutes against the Clips); that he tries to avoid contact even on plays when he's driving to the basket. His moodiness affected everyone on that team. He's clearly trying to get himself traded -- playing just hard enough so nobody thinks he's dogging it, but acting up just enough so everyone knows he's unhappy. At one point, I honestly thought Rafer Alston was going to punch him.


Everybody knew VC was acting like a disgruntled diva and wasn't putting in the effort. That's why when people like you try to change the narrative I show you why that's categorically false.


Again, I'm not sure what there is a to refute. I don't care about him doing those things. His boss sucked and deserved to have more of the team be disgruntled.


Lol "his boss sucked" is no excuse to deliberately under perform.

He was one of the highest paid players in the league in the middle of a 96 Million Dollar contract. Further, 20,000 fans were paying their hard earned money to watch him live night in and night out. His conduct and performances were disrespectful to the fans and to the city.

You may not care, but what he did was a slap in the face to the fans at the time who watched this prima donna diva getting paid tens of millions of dollars act like a childish buffoon deliberately playing well beneath what he was capable of.
lilVC
Ballboy
Posts: 13
And1: 24
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
     

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#68 » by lilVC » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:43 pm

VC got me excited into basketball but more importantly, showing me the love for the game and using it as an escape during tough times when growing up. There just wasn't any player like him on the court and probably never will be. Wishing vincanity all the best!
beanbag
Starter
Posts: 2,488
And1: 3,372
Joined: Apr 07, 2012

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#69 » by beanbag » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:56 pm

Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
So the fact that VC averaged career lows statistically, percentage-wise, and efficiency wise isn't proof? The fact that in an interview post-trade he admitted to relying on his talents instead of putting in the proper work?

I never put the whole blame on VC, I said that VC had a right to request a trade, but the way he conducted himself after requesting that trade was atrocious, unacceptable and unprofessional. That is not a matter of opinion, that's just facts.

You can bring up management but all you rely on are hypothetical and hearsay stories that have changed over time. The fact that VC under performed significantly below his usual production is evidence that he deliberately tanked his value and stopped trying. '

You want further proof? This is literally an article written by Bill Simmons while VC was still on the Raptors in 2004.

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/cowbell/041117



Everybody knew VC was acting like a disgruntled diva and wasn't putting in the effort. That's why when people like you try to change the narrative I show you why that's categorically false.


Again, I'm not sure what there is a to refute. I don't care about him doing those things. His boss sucked and deserved to have more of the team be disgruntled.


Lol "his boss sucked" is no excuse to deliberately under perform.

He was one of the highest paid players in the league in the middle of a 96 Million Dollar contract. Further, 20,000 fans were paying their hard earned money to watch him live night in and night out. His conduct and performances were disrespectful to the fans and to the city.

You may not care, but what he did was a slap in the face to the fans at the time who watched this prima donna diva getting paid tens of millions of dollars act like a childish buffoon deliberately playing well beneath what he was capable of.


The amount of money he got paid is irrelevant. I hate to tell you this, but if your boss sucks and it leads to a lousy workplace you aren't going to be motivated to work regardless of how much money you make.
Drygon
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,931
And1: 3,433
Joined: Dec 18, 2018

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#70 » by Drygon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:24 pm

SFour wrote:Vince will live with regret for the rest of his life for leaving the Raptors...along with never having won a championship that's enough punishment for him as far as I'm concerned...instead of hating I'll just respect that he put the Raptors on the map and paved the way for basketball in Canada.

Raptors getting a disgruntled Kawhi for that one season was the basketball gods way of repaying the Raptors for when VC tanked his value and wanted out...things balanced out after last season..especially after Kawhi hit that game 7 buzzer beater against the Sixers which VC unfortunately didn't in 2001.

If only the Raptors had a competent organization back then and a leader like Masai I think VC wouldn't have requested a trade.


What reasons does Vince have to regret for leaving Raptors? Wasting more prime years?

The management & MLSE never had any ambitions of putting a solid supporting cast around their franchise player.

Vince could've easily joined a title contender to get a meaningless ring while riding the bench, but he always refused it.

Besides, a Championship doesn't define someone's career lol.

Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
You can argue whatever I want.

But when I disagree with you then don’t ask me why I care about it so much and try to make it seem like I’m so concerned about it when you literally initiated the discussion.

Same with the other dude Air Canada. He can’t refute what I said so he referred to me as acting like “ex girlfriend.”

I don’t hate VC, I don’t really care for VC. I just won’t let him off the hook when somebody tried to make excuses for him.

And in a few years I’ll still continue to call KD’s move to the Warriors a loser move, even if I respect his play.


You keep using the word "refute".

There is nothing to refute. You claim Vince quit on the team, which you can't actually prove and you also claim that the fallout was his fault and not management's which is simply a matter of opinion. What is there to refute? What you have is an opinion.


So the fact that VC averaged career lows statistically, percentage-wise, and efficiency wise isn't proof? The fact that in an interview post-trade he admitted to relying on his talents instead of putting in the proper work?

I never put the whole blame on VC, I said that VC had a right to request a trade, but the way he conducted himself after requesting that trade was atrocious, unacceptable and unprofessional. That is not a matter of opinion, that's just facts.

You can bring up management but all you rely on are hypothetical and hearsay stories that have changed over time. The fact that VC under performed significantly below his usual production is evidence that he deliberately tanked his value and stopped trying. '

You want further proof? This is literally an article written by Bill Simmons while VC was still on the Raptors in 2004.

Spoiler:
http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/cowbell/041117

the compelling story was Vince Carter, benched for the final 15 minutes of the Portland game last Saturday ... and now we know why. He's a mess. During the pregame "Everyone bunch into a circle and jump up and down" ritual, Chris Bosh accidentally bumped him in the head, so Vince dramatically took three steps back to make sure he was OK, then rejoined the circle with a sarcastic frown. He made his first five jumpers, banged his shooting hand on a collision with Maggette, then spent the rest of the game touching the hand, examining it and swearing to himself ... only he would not-so-coincidentally forget to do this every time he made a basket. When he was angry after not getting the ball before one timeout, he stormed towards the bench, then brushed off a high-five from Donyell Marshall and left poor Donyell hanging.

It went on and on. Forget about the fact that Vince doesn't play defense anymore; that he doesn't bother to box out; that he's shooting pretty much every time he gets the ball (23 shots in 26 minutes against the Clips); that he tries to avoid contact even on plays when he's driving to the basket. His moodiness affected everyone on that team. He's clearly trying to get himself traded -- playing just hard enough so nobody thinks he's dogging it, but acting up just enough so everyone knows he's unhappy. At one point, I honestly thought Rafer Alston was going to punch him.


Everybody knew VC was acting like a disgruntled diva and wasn't putting in the effort. That's why when people like you try to change the narrative I show you why that's categorically false.


Why should anyone take Bill Simmons' words as a gospel? He has hated Vince Carter since his rookie year and consistenly downgraded him in order to praise Paul Pierce. Still to this day, for example in his 1998 "Redrafttables" podcast he stated that he might draft Rashard Lewis over VC in hindsight just because Lewis made the finals :crazy:. His criticisms have now moved on to Joel Embiid and Trae Young...... I wouldn't take opinions seriously from someone who clearly has grudges against certain players or franchises.

Also, you're taking Vince's quote about "not working hard" in his interview with John Thompson out of context.

Here's the full exchange:

John Thompson: "Do you think Vince Carter has pushed himself as hard as he should have pushed himself?"

Vince Carter: "In years past, no. I was just fortunate enough to have the talent. You know, you get spoiled when you're able to do a lot of things and you see that, and you really don't have to work at it. But now, I think with all the injuries and the things that have gone on, I have to work a little harder and I'm a little hungrier."




Vince said that after getting older (was almost 28-year-old at the time) & dealing with knee injuries. He had to work harder than he used to when he was younger & non injury prone. Which is a perfectly fine statement without any controversy behind it whatsoever. It's crazy how people still hating Vince for it...
kalel123
Veteran
Posts: 2,660
And1: 1,160
Joined: Oct 19, 2004

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#71 » by kalel123 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:25 pm

Some people here need to understand something.

Just because one side is at fault, doesn't mean the other side is exempt from blame or any less at fault. In fact, they can be both wrong as is the case here with Raptors management and Carter. I don't doubt the management at the time was incompetent. But there's no excuse to how he quit on the team. None. Doesn't matter how much revisionist history **** people including Carter tries to throw at this.

And you can't look only look at the bright side of things and ignore the equally shady **** that happened. He did more damage to this team going out than he did coming in. That's an indisputable fact and why any consideration to his jersey retirement and such should not be considered.

Really don't think he should be HOF either but they let anyone get in these days it seems. Just hope he doesn't get in as a Raptor.
Danny1616
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,688
And1: 7,257
Joined: May 26, 2007

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#72 » by Danny1616 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:32 pm

beanbag wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
Again, I'm not sure what there is a to refute. I don't care about him doing those things. His boss sucked and deserved to have more of the team be disgruntled.


Lol "his boss sucked" is no excuse to deliberately under perform.

He was one of the highest paid players in the league in the middle of a 96 Million Dollar contract. Further, 20,000 fans were paying their hard earned money to watch him live night in and night out. His conduct and performances were disrespectful to the fans and to the city.

You may not care, but what he did was a slap in the face to the fans at the time who watched this prima donna diva getting paid tens of millions of dollars act like a childish buffoon deliberately playing well beneath what he was capable of.


The amount of money he got paid is irrelevant. I hate to tell you this, but if your boss sucks and it leads to a lousy workplace you aren't going to be motivated to work regardless of how much money you make.


Terrible argument.

Tell that to the city and thousands of fans who paid their hard earned money to watch VC perform.

VC was literally getting paid $170,000 for every game he played that season. There is literally zero excuse to under perform.

Many people that can be disgruntled with their boss but still perform at the highest level. We've seen countless of other NBA players who requested a trade but still performed when they were called to do so.

Fans have a right to hate VC for the way he conducted himself during that time.

I vehemently disagree with anyone who tries to justify someone acting like an unprofessional child while getting paid nearly 100 million dollars and is under contract.
Danny1616
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,688
And1: 7,257
Joined: May 26, 2007

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#73 » by Danny1616 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm

Drygon wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
You keep using the word "refute".

There is nothing to refute. You claim Vince quit on the team, which you can't actually prove and you also claim that the fallout was his fault and not management's which is simply a matter of opinion. What is there to refute? What you have is an opinion.


So the fact that VC averaged career lows statistically, percentage-wise, and efficiency wise isn't proof? The fact that in an interview post-trade he admitted to relying on his talents instead of putting in the proper work?

I never put the whole blame on VC, I said that VC had a right to request a trade, but the way he conducted himself after requesting that trade was atrocious, unacceptable and unprofessional. That is not a matter of opinion, that's just facts.

You can bring up management but all you rely on are hypothetical and hearsay stories that have changed over time. The fact that VC under performed significantly below his usual production is evidence that he deliberately tanked his value and stopped trying. '

You want further proof? This is literally an article written by Bill Simmons while VC was still on the Raptors in 2004.

Spoiler:
http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/cowbell/041117

the compelling story was Vince Carter, benched for the final 15 minutes of the Portland game last Saturday ... and now we know why. He's a mess. During the pregame "Everyone bunch into a circle and jump up and down" ritual, Chris Bosh accidentally bumped him in the head, so Vince dramatically took three steps back to make sure he was OK, then rejoined the circle with a sarcastic frown. He made his first five jumpers, banged his shooting hand on a collision with Maggette, then spent the rest of the game touching the hand, examining it and swearing to himself ... only he would not-so-coincidentally forget to do this every time he made a basket. When he was angry after not getting the ball before one timeout, he stormed towards the bench, then brushed off a high-five from Donyell Marshall and left poor Donyell hanging.

It went on and on. Forget about the fact that Vince doesn't play defense anymore; that he doesn't bother to box out; that he's shooting pretty much every time he gets the ball (23 shots in 26 minutes against the Clips); that he tries to avoid contact even on plays when he's driving to the basket. His moodiness affected everyone on that team. He's clearly trying to get himself traded -- playing just hard enough so nobody thinks he's dogging it, but acting up just enough so everyone knows he's unhappy. At one point, I honestly thought Rafer Alston was going to punch him.


Everybody knew VC was acting like a disgruntled diva and wasn't putting in the effort. That's why when people like you try to change the narrative I show you why that's categorically false.


Why should anyone take Bill Simmons' words as a gospel? He has hated Vince Carter since his rookie year and consistenly downgraded him in order to praise Paul Pierce. Still to this day, for example in his 1998 "Redrafttables" podcast he stated that he might draft Rashard Lewis over VC in hindsight just because Lewis made the finals :crazy:. His criticisms have now moved on to Joel Embiid and Trae Young...... I wouldn't take opinions seriously from someone who clearly has grudges against certain players or franchises.

Also, you're taking Vince's quote about "not working hard" in his interview with John Thompson out of context.

Here's the full exchange:

John Thompson: "Do you think Vince Carter has pushed himself as hard as he should have pushed himself?"

Vince Carter: "In years past, no. I was just fortunate enough to have the talent. You know, you get spoiled when you're able to do a lot of things and you see that, and you really don't have to work at it. But now, I think with all the injuries and the things that have gone on, I have to work a little harder and I'm a little hungrier."




Vince said that after getting older (was almost 28-year-old at the time) & dealing with knee injuries. He had to work harder than he used to when he was younger & non injury prone. Which is a perfectly fine statement without any controversy behind it whatsoever. It's crazy how people still hating Vince for it...
Danny1616
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,688
And1: 7,257
Joined: May 26, 2007

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#74 » by Danny1616 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:36 pm

Drygon wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
You keep using the word "refute".

There is nothing to refute. You claim Vince quit on the team, which you can't actually prove and you also claim that the fallout was his fault and not management's which is simply a matter of opinion. What is there to refute? What you have is an opinion.


So the fact that VC averaged career lows statistically, percentage-wise, and efficiency wise isn't proof? The fact that in an interview post-trade he admitted to relying on his talents instead of putting in the proper work?

I never put the whole blame on VC, I said that VC had a right to request a trade, but the way he conducted himself after requesting that trade was atrocious, unacceptable and unprofessional. That is not a matter of opinion, that's just facts.

You can bring up management but all you rely on are hypothetical and hearsay stories that have changed over time. The fact that VC under performed significantly below his usual production is evidence that he deliberately tanked his value and stopped trying. '

You want further proof? This is literally an article written by Bill Simmons while VC was still on the Raptors in 2004.

Spoiler:
http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/cowbell/041117

the compelling story was Vince Carter, benched for the final 15 minutes of the Portland game last Saturday ... and now we know why. He's a mess. During the pregame "Everyone bunch into a circle and jump up and down" ritual, Chris Bosh accidentally bumped him in the head, so Vince dramatically took three steps back to make sure he was OK, then rejoined the circle with a sarcastic frown. He made his first five jumpers, banged his shooting hand on a collision with Maggette, then spent the rest of the game touching the hand, examining it and swearing to himself ... only he would not-so-coincidentally forget to do this every time he made a basket. When he was angry after not getting the ball before one timeout, he stormed towards the bench, then brushed off a high-five from Donyell Marshall and left poor Donyell hanging.

It went on and on. Forget about the fact that Vince doesn't play defense anymore; that he doesn't bother to box out; that he's shooting pretty much every time he gets the ball (23 shots in 26 minutes against the Clips); that he tries to avoid contact even on plays when he's driving to the basket. His moodiness affected everyone on that team. He's clearly trying to get himself traded -- playing just hard enough so nobody thinks he's dogging it, but acting up just enough so everyone knows he's unhappy. At one point, I honestly thought Rafer Alston was going to punch him.


Everybody knew VC was acting like a disgruntled diva and wasn't putting in the effort. That's why when people like you try to change the narrative I show you why that's categorically false.


Why should anyone take Bill Simmons' words as a gospel? He has hated Vince Carter since his rookie year and consistenly downgraded him in order to praise Paul Pierce. Still to this day, for example in his 1998 "Redrafttables" podcast he stated that he might draft Rashard Lewis over VC in hindsight just because Lewis made the finals :crazy:. His criticisms have now moved on to Joel Embiid and Trae Young...... I wouldn't take opinions seriously from someone who clearly has grudges against certain players or franchises.

Also, you're taking Vince's quote about "not working hard" in his interview with John Thompson out of context.

Here's the full exchange:

John Thompson: "Do you think Vince Carter has pushed himself as hard as he should have pushed himself?"

Vince Carter: "In years past, no. I was just fortunate enough to have the talent. You know, you get spoiled when you're able to do a lot of things and you see that, and you really don't have to work at it. But now, I think with all the injuries and the things that have gone on, I have to work a little harder and I'm a little hungrier."





Vince said that after getting older (was almost 28-year-old at the time) & dealing with knee injuries. He had to work harder than he used to when he was younger & non injury prone. Which is a perfectly fine statement without any controversy behind it whatsoever. It's crazy how people still hating Vince for it...


Nice try attempting to twist what I said.

As stated before, the proof is that VC averaged statistical lows in nearly every single category of first 20 games that season, including lows in percentages and efficiency. Many who watched could tell VC was deliberately tanking his trade value, settling for jumpers, faking injuries with the most minimal contact, refusing to play aggressively, dogging it on defense, acting like a complete buffoon and even going into the opposing teams huddles after games.

I merely added that information to show that people outside of Toronto were feeling the same way.
Danny1616
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,688
And1: 7,257
Joined: May 26, 2007

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#75 » by Danny1616 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:38 pm

kalel123 wrote:Some people here need to understand something.

Just because one side is at fault, doesn't mean the other side is exempt from blame or any less at fault. In fact, they can be both wrong as is the case here with Raptors management and Carter. I don't doubt the management at the time was incompetent. But there's no excuse to how he quit on the team. None. Doesn't matter how much revisionist history **** people including Carter tries to throw at this.

And you can't look only look at the bright side of things and ignore the equally shady **** that happened. He did more damage to this team going out than he did coming in. That's an indisputable fact and why any consideration to his jersey retirement and such should not be considered.

Really don't think he should be HOF either but they let anyone get in these days it seems. Just hope he doesn't get in as a Raptor.


Exactly this.
User avatar
vini_vidi_vici
RealGM
Posts: 14,032
And1: 14,827
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
 

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#76 » by vini_vidi_vici » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:48 pm

beanbag wrote:The amount of money he got paid is irrelevant. I hate to tell you this, but if your boss sucks and it leads to a lousy workplace you aren't going to be motivated to work regardless of how much money you make.


Theres alot of inane discourse on the last 2 pages, but this is probably the worst of it.

If you need motivation to do your job, thats an indictment on your character/ethic, not the bosses. Thats not absolving MLSE management of their actions either.
Image
iDRTG is terrible.
yk24
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,922
And1: 345
Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#77 » by yk24 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:10 pm

Would have been sweet if he signed a 1 day and retired as a Raptor.
beanbag
Starter
Posts: 2,488
And1: 3,372
Joined: Apr 07, 2012

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#78 » by beanbag » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:18 pm

Danny1616 wrote:
beanbag wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
Lol "his boss sucked" is no excuse to deliberately under perform.

He was one of the highest paid players in the league in the middle of a 96 Million Dollar contract. Further, 20,000 fans were paying their hard earned money to watch him live night in and night out. His conduct and performances were disrespectful to the fans and to the city.

You may not care, but what he did was a slap in the face to the fans at the time who watched this prima donna diva getting paid tens of millions of dollars act like a childish buffoon deliberately playing well beneath what he was capable of.


The amount of money he got paid is irrelevant. I hate to tell you this, but if your boss sucks and it leads to a lousy workplace you aren't going to be motivated to work regardless of how much money you make.


Terrible argument.

Tell that to the city and thousands of fans who paid their hard earned money to watch VC perform.

VC was literally getting paid $170,000 for every game he played that season. There is literally zero excuse to under perform.

Many people that can be disgruntled with their boss but still perform at the highest level. We've seen countless of other NBA players who requested a trade but still performed when they were called to do so.

Fans have a right to hate VC for the way he conducted himself during that time.

I vehemently disagree with anyone who tries to justify someone acting like an unprofessional child while getting paid nearly 100 million dollars and is under contract.


It sounds like you're just mad because he makes more money than you.

I'm a fan, I pay my hard earned my towards Raptors tickets and I don't blame the players (or staff) for rebelling against **** management.
beanbag
Starter
Posts: 2,488
And1: 3,372
Joined: Apr 07, 2012

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#79 » by beanbag » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:20 pm

kalel123 wrote:Some people here need to understand something.

Just because one side is at fault, doesn't mean the other side is exempt from blame or any less at fault. In fact, they can be both wrong as is the case here with Raptors management and Carter. I don't doubt the management at the time was incompetent. But there's no excuse to how he quit on the team. None. Doesn't matter how much revisionist history **** people including Carter tries to throw at this.

And you can't look only look at the bright side of things and ignore the equally shady **** that happened. He did more damage to this team going out than he did coming in. That's an indisputable fact and why any consideration to his jersey retirement and such should not be considered.

Really don't think he should be HOF either but they let anyone get in these days it seems. Just hope he doesn't get in as a Raptor.


Says both sides are at fault and spends one sentence on management and a couple of paragraphs crying about Vince.
beanbag
Starter
Posts: 2,488
And1: 3,372
Joined: Apr 07, 2012

Re: Vince Carter officially retires 

Post#80 » by beanbag » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:21 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
beanbag wrote:The amount of money he got paid is irrelevant. I hate to tell you this, but if your boss sucks and it leads to a lousy workplace you aren't going to be motivated to work regardless of how much money you make.


Theres alot of inane discourse on the last 2 pages, but this is probably the worst of it.

If you need motivation to do your job, thats an indictment on your character/ethic, not the bosses. Thats not absolving MLSE management of their actions either.


You're gonna make manager in no time champ. If you aren't already.

Return to Toronto Raptors