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GIVE FVV MAX!

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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#141 » by agkagk » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:46 pm

I’m pretty sure he was a Celtics double agent in game 7.


Otherwise, I suspect a perennial 9th seed like Orlando will dole out the brinks truck. if so, thanks for the memories.

Anything over 20 a year is an overpay and I wouldn’t blink if he’s offered something like 22 - 25 a year.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#142 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:52 pm

Postives:
Elite defender
40% career 3pt shooter
Low turnovers
Durable
26 years old

Negatives:
Finishing in the paint
Size

The positives far outweigh the negatives. He's a starting calibre player most contenders need. Like a few other players on the Raps, he'd look a lot better offensively if his usage went down to a more reasonable level. Masai will need to find a scorer who can create his own shot.

He fits the culture the Raps have developed so unless another team offers him something ridiculous, Masai and VV should agree to something reasonable for both sides.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#143 » by HeadtopChunes » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:56 pm

Comparable players

Malcolm Brogdon
4/85 (21M)

Ricky Rubio
3/51M (17M)

Marcus Smart
4/52M (13M)

Spencer Dinwiddie
3/34M (12M)
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#144 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:19 pm

Brogdan is a good comparable for him from a value standpoint. He's probably worth about 20M. Just need to hope other teams don't do something stupid.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#145 » by StopitLeo » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:35 pm

ruckus wrote:
StopitLeo wrote:
ruckus wrote:
There's no difference in that rotation from this year except for no Kyle. Add in reasonable improvement from the 4 guys mentioned and its not really something to worry about.


Our lack of size and ball-handling on the wing was a big problem against the Celtics.

Success in the half-court is really limited with only one perimeter guy who is able to attack off the dribble in addition to your point guard. Pascal isn't even that good at it; he's just the only guy we have with size and a decent handle (needs tightening up as we saw against Boston).


If we're just focusing on the wing, Norm has sufficient size at the 2/3. Both Pascal and OG needs to get better at the 3/4 in terms of their handle. I haven't seen enough of Watson to judge one way or the other.

However, its a bit unfair to judge our wings against Smart/Brown and Tatum. If held up to that standard then yes, we aren't there. But what of the other 28 teams? Our wing rotation is decent enough to run it back and see if there is enough growth to take another step forward.


We have different opinions on Norm. I don’t think he has the size or ball handling. I don’t see OG being someone who can attack off the dribble to get his own shot reliably.

I am not judging against the Celtics wings. Not having a third guy who can attack off the dribble is a liability in the playoffs. We saw it last year when Kawhi and Pascal were not on at the same time and this year if one of Lowry, FVV, or Pascal was off.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#146 » by Kevin Willis » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:01 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:Brogdan is a good comparable for him from a value standpoint. He's probably worth about 20M. Just need to hope other teams don't do something stupid.


Brogdan or Rubio. I think Brogdan makes more of a difference than FVV. If we Brogdan for this series we might have a slightly better chance. I think Rubio is a more likely comparison because he has more positives than negatives but his negatives are pretty glaring.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#147 » by nabbs » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:27 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:Brogdan is a good comparable for him from a value standpoint. He's probably worth about 20M. Just need to hope other teams don't do something stupid.


StopitLeo wrote:
ruckus wrote:
StopitLeo wrote:
Our lack of size and ball-handling on the wing was a big problem against the Celtics.

Success in the half-court is really limited with only one perimeter guy who is able to attack off the dribble in addition to your point guard. Pascal isn't even that good at it; he's just the only guy we have with size and a decent handle (needs tightening up as we saw against Boston).


If we're just focusing on the wing, Norm has sufficient size at the 2/3. Both Pascal and OG needs to get better at the 3/4 in terms of their handle. I haven't seen enough of Watson to judge one way or the other.

However, its a bit unfair to judge our wings against Smart/Brown and Tatum. If held up to that standard then yes, we aren't there. But what of the other 28 teams? Our wing rotation is decent enough to run it back and see if there is enough growth to take another step forward.


We have different opinions on Norm. I don’t think he has the size or ball handling. I don’t see OG being someone who can attack off the dribble to get his own shot reliably.

I am not judging against the Celtics wings. Not having a third guy who can attack off the dribble is a liability in the playoffs. We saw it last year when Kawhi and Pascal were not on at the same time and this year if one of Lowry, FVV, or Pascal was off.


HeadtopChunes wrote:Comparable players

Malcolm Brogdon
4/85 (21M)

Ricky Rubio
3/51M (17M)

Marcus Smart
4/52M (13M)

Spencer Dinwiddie
3/34M (12M)


You all bring up great points of concern of signing Fred as well as benchmarking what kind of contract he will receive. Ultimately, I think Brogdon is what he will end up getting (maybe hits 22 mil but not beyond that I don't think).

To address stopitleo's concerns, if we are sign to Fred, he is right in that we need size and creation at that G/F spot. The hope is Pascal makes some internal improvement, TD makes some strides and all of a sudden it's a little more dynamic. However, having said that, I think it behooves us to get someone with more of a consistent and proven track record in that department.

Long term, the 2 guard starting beside Fred or whoever is in that closing lineup with Fred needs to be able to run a PnR reliably and self create. Fred can become adequate, but never elite at that skill imo. You need to explore trade options involving Norm and/or TD. Another alternative is going through the draft (Grant Riller, McDaniels in a gamble play or Isaiah Joe).
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#148 » by nabbs » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:30 pm

I wrote this regarding my scouting and team construction thoughts on the bubble:

Spoiler:
Playoff/Basketball Specific Observations:

- It's clear to me that wing and guards with creation are the name of the game though. People tried so hard to replicate the Golden State model with shooting but the reality is, guard/wing self creation and playmaking in the half court is the holy grail

- SIZE AND SHOOTING ARE THE PREMIUM. As great as Thomas is, he may never be effective as guys like Duncan Robinson and Cam Johnson because those guys are legit 6'6, 6'7 and can shoot the ball at a high clip on high volume. These guys were pegged as defensive liabilities and were labelled as tough NBA cases because of their inability to guard. I think NBA teams should trust their development program and look at the way defense is played today. These dudes can be passable with their size alone. Don't be fooled by the defensive ability in college (with obvious caveats). If a player has legit size and shooting ability he is worth a gamble. ALWAYS


- Heliocentric offences seem to be gimmicks and can be schemed in the playoffs (exceptions to this obviously). You have to have counters offensively and defensively, while also being able to have diversity in offenses (pick and roll, off the dribble, off ball movement, post up, mid range). I don't think the big man is dead at all but I do think if you aren't a superstar big man, your earning potential and overall value is limited. Guys like Daniel Theis are probably the archetype of bigman teams should look to develop/acquire.

- 3 and D guys are really over valued imo. I think they are easily schemed and teams should focus more on offensive diversity versus fitting guys in to a 3 and D archetype. Guys like RoCo, Justin Holiday, Danny Green, etc. People have been overpaying for these guys when in reality, you are better off with the jack of all trades, master of none


IF you are going to sign Fred and team build in general, it's useful to consider these things to mitigate weaknesses being exposed in a playoff scenario
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#149 » by StopitLeo » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:50 pm

nabbs wrote:I wrote this regarding my scouting and team construction thoughts on the bubble:

Spoiler:
Playoff/Basketball Specific Observations:

- It's clear to me that wing and guards with creation are the name of the game though. People tried so hard to replicate the Golden State model with shooting but the reality is, guard/wing self creation and playmaking in the half court is the holy grail

- SIZE AND SHOOTING ARE THE PREMIUM. As great as Thomas is, he may never be effective as guys like Duncan Robinson and Cam Johnson because those guys are legit 6'6, 6'7 and can shoot the ball at a high clip on high volume. These guys were pegged as defensive liabilities and were labelled as tough NBA cases because of their inability to guard. I think NBA teams should trust their development program and look at the way defense is played today. These dudes can be passable with their size alone. Don't be fooled by the defensive ability in college (with obvious caveats). If a player has legit size and shooting ability he is worth a gamble. ALWAYS


- Heliocentric offences seem to be gimmicks and can be schemed in the playoffs (exceptions to this obviously). You have to have counters offensively and defensively, while also being able to have diversity in offenses (pick and roll, off the dribble, off ball movement, post up, mid range). I don't think the big man is dead at all but I do think if you aren't a superstar big man, your earning potential and overall value is limited. Guys like Daniel Theis are probably the archetype of bigman teams should look to develop/acquire.

- 3 and D guys are really over valued imo. I think they are easily schemed and teams should focus more on offensive diversity versus fitting guys in to a 3 and D archetype. Guys like RoCo, Justin Holiday, Danny Green, etc. People have been overpaying for these guys when in reality, you are better off with the jack of all trades, master of none


IF you are going to sign Fred and team build in general, it's useful to consider these things to mitigate weaknesses being exposed in a playoff scenario


I agree 100%.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#150 » by nabbs » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:01 pm

StopitLeo wrote:
nabbs wrote:I wrote this regarding my scouting and team construction thoughts on the bubble:

Spoiler:
Playoff/Basketball Specific Observations:

- It's clear to me that wing and guards with creation are the name of the game though. People tried so hard to replicate the Golden State model with shooting but the reality is, guard/wing self creation and playmaking in the half court is the holy grail

- SIZE AND SHOOTING ARE THE PREMIUM. As great as Thomas is, he may never be effective as guys like Duncan Robinson and Cam Johnson because those guys are legit 6'6, 6'7 and can shoot the ball at a high clip on high volume. These guys were pegged as defensive liabilities and were labelled as tough NBA cases because of their inability to guard. I think NBA teams should trust their development program and look at the way defense is played today. These dudes can be passable with their size alone. Don't be fooled by the defensive ability in college (with obvious caveats). If a player has legit size and shooting ability he is worth a gamble. ALWAYS


- Heliocentric offences seem to be gimmicks and can be schemed in the playoffs (exceptions to this obviously). You have to have counters offensively and defensively, while also being able to have diversity in offenses (pick and roll, off the dribble, off ball movement, post up, mid range). I don't think the big man is dead at all but I do think if you aren't a superstar big man, your earning potential and overall value is limited. Guys like Daniel Theis are probably the archetype of bigman teams should look to develop/acquire.

- 3 and D guys are really over valued imo. I think they are easily schemed and teams should focus more on offensive diversity versus fitting guys in to a 3 and D archetype. Guys like RoCo, Justin Holiday, Danny Green, etc. People have been overpaying for these guys when in reality, you are better off with the jack of all trades, master of none


IF you are going to sign Fred and team build in general, it's useful to consider these things to mitigate weaknesses being exposed in a playoff scenario


I agree 100%.


This is why I put an emphasis on feel for the game and ball IQ. You can be a great shooter, handler and all the above but if you lack those first two, it'll be really hard to succeed in the playoffs. You'd have to top 1% level ability at a specific skill to succeed
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#151 » by Dalek » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:08 pm

Tor_Raps wrote:
Dalek wrote:
sule wrote:
He's an awesome bench player. But that's it. If he's considered a star, then your team is losing.


I don't know why he wouldn't be considered a starter/star. He is a great two-way player who makes incredibly clutch shots. He was out there guarding Tatum and Brown at times and held his own. They were literally one or two shots from making the conference finals and that was largely due to FVV's play.

Toronto won a ton of games with him starting with another 6 ft PG. I think people have to get past the whole conventional PPG and size/athleticism equals star quality. FVV may not average 20+ because the offence is spread out. His size does not stop him from being a pest on defence.

I think you have to imagine him with a proper slashing wing. Poor Lowry was forced into that role and he gave it all he could. FVV is a great floor spreader with deep range that would easily compliment another star player.

I don't know if you notice his basketball impact, but so many young players like Grant Riller, Skylar Mays and many others name drop him because he literally brings his own style to the game. He is a skilled, high IQ player that is tough-minded and a leader.

Losing him in free agency would be a huge misstep.


I think he can be a starting PG but not your best perimeter player. I would never want the ball in his hands with the game on the line unless hes catching and shooting.

I agree losing him for nothing will set this team back but severely overpaying him will do the same. There are a lot of bad teams that have cap space and might do it (Knicks/Pistons). Lets hope we can bring him back to a 17.5 per year deal.


I highly doubt you get him back for $17.5m as the market will be active for him. He is a leader, good defender and knock down shooter who played on a Finals team. He just averaged 20 and 7 in the most recent playoffs.

Look at recent history: Lowry for $30m and Siakam for $130m over 5 years. Look at how good Toronto was this past season despite injuries and their track record for paying their players. FVV is getting a max deal ($25m x 3 - PO on last year) unless the cap comes back way smaller due to the revenue lost last season.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#152 » by Tor_Raps » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:45 pm

Dalek wrote:
Tor_Raps wrote:
Dalek wrote:
I don't know why he wouldn't be considered a starter/star. He is a great two-way player who makes incredibly clutch shots. He was out there guarding Tatum and Brown at times and held his own. They were literally one or two shots from making the conference finals and that was largely due to FVV's play.

Toronto won a ton of games with him starting with another 6 ft PG. I think people have to get past the whole conventional PPG and size/athleticism equals star quality. FVV may not average 20+ because the offence is spread out. His size does not stop him from being a pest on defence.

I think you have to imagine him with a proper slashing wing. Poor Lowry was forced into that role and he gave it all he could. FVV is a great floor spreader with deep range that would easily compliment another star player.

I don't know if you notice his basketball impact, but so many young players like Grant Riller, Skylar Mays and many others name drop him because he literally brings his own style to the game. He is a skilled, high IQ player that is tough-minded and a leader.

Losing him in free agency would be a huge misstep.


I think he can be a starting PG but not your best perimeter player. I would never want the ball in his hands with the game on the line unless hes catching and shooting.

I agree losing him for nothing will set this team back but severely overpaying him will do the same. There are a lot of bad teams that have cap space and might do it (Knicks/Pistons). Lets hope we can bring him back to a 17.5 per year deal.


I highly doubt you get him back for $17.5m as the market will be active for him. He is a leader, good defender and knock down shooter who played on a Finals team. He just averaged 20 and 7 in the most recent playoffs.

Look at recent history: Lowry for $30m and Siakam for $130m over 5 years. Look at how good Toronto was this past season despite injuries and their track record for paying their players. FVV is getting a max deal ($25m x 3 - PO on last year) unless the cap comes back way smaller due to the revenue lost last season.


Lowry got an inflated 1 year deal to preserve the 2021 cap room.

Brogdan got a 4 year/80 mill deal and he is the better player. He is much more versatile being able to guard PGs to SFs. He can also finish around the basket at a much higher clip and at the end of games when it really matters.

While fred has great perimeter defense, he is a walking mismatch in the post. There is no way I give him a penny more than what Brogdan got. If he gets that type of contract from a crappy team like the Knicks or Pistons, it'll hurt and set us back a bit but we will have to accept it.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#153 » by AreBe » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:19 pm

FVV. He's great. He's outstanding. He's going to make millions.
He's going to make them elsewhere. And that is ok
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#154 » by Raptors_128 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:50 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:Postives:
Elite defender
40% career 3pt shooter
Low turnovers
Durable
26 years old

Negatives:
Finishing in the paint
Size

The positives far outweigh the negatives. He's a starting calibre player most contenders need. Like a few other players on the Raps, he'd look a lot better offensively if his usage went down to a more reasonable level. Masai will need to find a scorer who can create his own shot.

He fits the culture the Raps have developed so unless another team offers him something ridiculous, Masai and VV should agree to something reasonable for both sides.


Come on man, that list can be expanded. I can add more to the negatives easily.

Negatives:
Playmaking
Late game decision-making
Handling in the pick-and-roll
Size
Scoring in the paint
Scoring in the mid-range
Defensive versatility

Fred’s a good player and he’s a starting caliber player. However, we shouldn’t pay him whatever he wants or match any offer as some here say. He’s replaceable.

He’s been betting on himself his entire career. He’s going to get the most money he can. He’s going to go to a situation where he will be a starter and will get his shots. He has his ring, now he wants his money and a bigger role.

No one can fault him for that. I will have nothing but respect for him if he makes that choice. He deserves it.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#155 » by gp2015 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:24 pm

Any team that will give FVV the starting point guard job and expects him to be the play maker is in for a pretty big disappointment.

He's not starting point guard material. He is off-guard, spot up shooter and a secondary ball handler at best.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#156 » by BD006 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:42 pm

Fred can be our long-term starting pg, but then we'll need more size and ball-handling at the 2 (Norm for now, and groom TDII?)
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#157 » by MadDogSHWA » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:13 pm

Basketball_Jones wrote:Surprising takes here saying he isn’t a point guard. He clearly is.


If it was clear we wouldn't have so many people saying he isn't a 1. I've been watching the NBA for 30+ years and the definition of point guard has definitely changed. 20 years ago I don't think this would even be a discussion and he probably would never have made the NBA. Back then 1's really ran the team and created the bulk of the offense. Now we have teams like the clippers that just move the ball.

FVV did a decent job with Lowry out injured earlier this year but I just can't see FVV playing the 1 in the playoffs. I can see him guarding 1's for sure.

I'm hoping he and TD can be combo guards together and get it done. TD is no point guard either but he can drive and dish. Between he and FVV I'm fairly confident they will (one day) be able to run the offense by committee.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#158 » by Young_Buc » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:06 pm

Brogdan > FVV

Bigger, better passer and probably a better shooter. Shut down defender at the PG spot (Lowry) AND Indy had to sweeten a deal to get him to leave.

That being said, he's a 20 mil pg and probably 18 for Milwaukee. Fred shouldn't get 20+
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#159 » by Pooh_Jeter » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:11 pm

Fred is nothing but Beverly who has a green light.

Dude can be a useful starter on a team with a ball dominant wing, but the reality is he is a bench guy. I'd EASILY take Dinwiddie over him.
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Re: GIVE FVV MAX! 

Post#160 » by Dalek » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:43 pm

MadDogSHWA wrote:
Basketball_Jones wrote:Surprising takes here saying he isn’t a point guard. He clearly is.


If it was clear we wouldn't have so many people saying he isn't a 1. I've been watching the NBA for 30+ years and the definition of point guard has definitely changed. 20 years ago I don't think this would even be a discussion and he probably would never have made the NBA. Back then 1's really ran the team and created the bulk of the offense. Now we have teams like the clippers that just move the ball.

FVV did a decent job with Lowry out injured earlier this year but I just can't see FVV playing the 1 in the playoffs. I can see him guarding 1's for sure.

I'm hoping he and TD can be combo guards together and get it done. TD is no point guard either but he can drive and dish. Between he and FVV I'm fairly confident they will (one day) be able to run the offense by committee.


I mean Toronto's greatest success came from a wing handling the ball. If LA loses maybe Kawhi will come back. Maybe Siakam will take a huge step forward next year and slot into a Kawhi type of role or Giannis leaves Milwaukee and asks to be dealt to Toronto.

In all cases you keep FVV and TD because they make shots from outside are strong low gravity defenders who hae the added skill to make plays off the dribble. The traditional PG is pretty done. In the modern NBA, you are getting your biggest and best athletes to handle the ball.

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