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Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ?

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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#41 » by sidsid » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:36 pm

Young Moosehead wrote:
sidsid wrote:I think people are confusing his set of skills for IQ.

Fred's BBall IQ is fine. He's solid and knows what to do and where to be on the floor.

Fred's issue is that he's a combo guard with a bias towards scoring who is being asked to be more of pure pg in our offense.

The guy would look off Kawhi and call his own number. He doesn't have Lowry's vision for passing so that's why he ends up getting blocked at the rim more often.

It's why most would like to see him put into more of an off ball role where he isn't leaning into his liabilities as much.

That's not an IQ problem. More of a role definition problem on our team.


True, its why he worked so well with Delon Wright. They could switch their roles. FVV could handle the shooting responsibility of the 2 and cover the 1 on D. Delon could distribute at the 1, then use his size to switch to the 2 on D.

If we are going to lay out the big money for Fred we need a rich man's Delon as his back court mate. I think that is what they spent so much time trying to develop McCaw.


I don't think it's Delon, who is also a combo guard, but the bench mob system that was the key. FVV is playing next to a great point guard now in Lowry, and we still ran into issues against playoff defenses.

Again, role definition is what's key. In the bench mob, FVV was an initiator that had a set number of reads he could make out of a constantly in motion offense. He wasn't making the decisions on the fly, the system was the pg in that scenario. The system drew the defensive attention. Some of the best ball we ever saw.

In this year's offense, FVV is the co-primary initiator for the vast majority of the game. He makes the reads and decisions, and he draws a lot of the defensive attention. With his size and skill limitations, that means your going to be mediocre to bad inside the arc against elite playoff teams with size.

If FVV is an engine on your team, your going to be mediocre. If FVV is a cog on your team who can exploit his full toolset (likely requires a couple superstars on your team), he can be a great asset. We just may never have the team to make that happen.
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#42 » by Pooh_Jeter » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:03 pm

Having a gigantic ego and limited physical tools is not a good mix. Only a lottery team should be relying on him to be their "guy."
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#43 » by NUCKER101 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:07 pm

I’d say he’s a bit above average when it BBIQ. He does tend to take efficient shots(3’s and shots at the rim, even though his finishing at the rim is weak so if he had higher BBIQ he’d drive and kick more). His playmaking/vision for a PG is not that good. He’s a pretty smart defender though.


I love FVV, but I think his self confidence is a double edged sword right now. It’s great because he’s a confident player, but he also likely overvalues himself and will demand too much money, which he knows he’ll get from somewhere, if not Toronto.
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#44 » by xAIRNESSx » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:09 pm

Yes and he also has very strong leadership characteristics.
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#45 » by ItsDanger » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:11 pm

At times, he takes it on himself to force shots. He is not that type of player. Need to trust his teammates more.
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#46 » by execoftheyear » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:40 pm

SirKen wrote:
casual_raps_fan wrote:
execoftheyear wrote:yes he does especially on the defensive end. The shot selection is because of our lack of scorers and him having to take more shots than he should be taking

I feel like this problem gets magnified when Lowry is sitting on the bench. We have quite a variety of guards on the bench (Norm, Thomas, TD, McCaw) but none of them brought any value as playmakers in the playoffs. :-?


Thomas made plays every time he touched the ball. More than he got opportunities to put up shots. The problem is the team was not finding him when he was available.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Thomas is probably the second best playmaker on the team after Lowry. Go check some of his Euro highlights and how he finds the right play.


finding the right play and being a playmaker isn't necessarily the same thing imo. Thomas is good at not over dribbling and keeping the ball moving, the ball doesn't stick when he gets it.

Being a playmaker is creating opportunities for others and oneself to score when the set plays are unsuccessful, usually at the backend of a shotclock. Thomas is not that. Lowry, Vanvleet, Siakam (good Siakam) and Powell (on occasion) were playmakers. Thomas relies on playmakers to score.
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#47 » by SirKen » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:22 am

execoftheyear wrote:
SirKen wrote:
casual_raps_fan wrote:I feel like this problem gets magnified when Lowry is sitting on the bench. We have quite a variety of guards on the bench (Norm, Thomas, TD, McCaw) but none of them brought any value as playmakers in the playoffs. :-?


Thomas made plays every time he touched the ball. More than he got opportunities to put up shots. The problem is the team was not finding him when he was available.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Thomas is probably the second best playmaker on the team after Lowry. Go check some of his Euro highlights and how he finds the right play.


finding the right play and being a playmaker isn't necessarily the same thing imo. Thomas is good at not over dribbling and keeping the ball moving, the ball doesn't stick when he gets it.

Being a playmaker is creating opportunities for others and oneself to score when the set plays are unsuccessful, usually at the backend of a shotclock. Thomas is not that. Lowry, Vanvleet, Siakam (good Siakam) and Powell (on occasion) were playmakers. Thomas relies on playmakers to score.


I think you misunderstood me. I am not talking about him passing the ball in the perimeter. I am talking about him driving in and kicking out or dishing assists. It is just that sample size is small in his time with Raptors so far.
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#48 » by execoftheyear » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:37 am

SirKen wrote:
execoftheyear wrote:
SirKen wrote:
Thomas made plays every time he touched the ball. More than he got opportunities to put up shots. The problem is the team was not finding him when he was available.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Thomas is probably the second best playmaker on the team after Lowry. Go check some of his Euro highlights and how he finds the right play.


finding the right play and being a playmaker isn't necessarily the same thing imo. Thomas is good at not over dribbling and keeping the ball moving, the ball doesn't stick when he gets it.

Being a playmaker is creating opportunities for others and oneself to score when the set plays are unsuccessful, usually at the backend of a shotclock. Thomas is not that. Lowry, Vanvleet, Siakam (good Siakam) and Powell (on occasion) were playmakers. Thomas relies on playmakers to score.


I think you misunderstood me. I am not talking about him passing the ball in the perimeter. I am talking about him driving in and kicking out or dishing assists. It is just that sample size is small in his time with Raptors so far.


I don't think he's a playmaker though. He's good at making good decisions within an offense but he's not someone you give the ball to and ask him to create something out of nothing. Great playmakers can do that once the initial offensive play breaks down and it requires the ability to break down the defender off the dribble. Fred Vanvleet is our second best playmaker. Thomas is nowhere near that, he's just a role player that requires screens to get open.
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#49 » by mathgeek » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:08 am

All valid points but this is just recency bias. Remember Kyle Lowry a few years ago....yea the same was said about him. He used to get blocked often and totally forget how to shoot in the playoffs. The difference being that Kyle is more athletic and a dog on defense. Kyle's passing instincts evolved because he would forget how to shoot. Kyle also takes a lot of deep pull up 3s which can be considered bad shots depending on timing.

FVVs value will depend on what hw gets paid. I would give him 20-25 mill and deal with the contract later. It hurts to lose someone of his caliber for nothing. Not to mention it doesn't look good on the franchise.
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#50 » by TdotRap4Lyfe » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:14 am

Considering I don't trust him running the offence? No, when Lowry is out there, I always know he has the best move in mind when going into a possession. I've yet to feel as confident in Fred as that, maybe he needs a year or two idk, but yet.

I still cringe at the early shot clock counter contested long twos, that no one seems to give him **** for.
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#51 » by pr0gr4m » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:59 am

The only reason I would re-sign Fred would be for business related reasons. It's a tough area to be in for Ujiri as Fred is a "homegrown" talent. I would say he is the most effective when he's beside Lowry because of his respect for him. We saw something similar happen with Cory Joseph when he played his best seasons as a Raptor.

That being said as Lowry retires I see Fred losing a lot of value. The most optimal outcome for Toronto would be to trade both Lowry and FVV (S&T) this summer for rebuilding pieces, however this is unlikely. Trading one to open a starting role for Powell and seeing if he can take another step would also be the right step.

I think a FVV(S&T) for Hield, Bagley, and their 12th would be a high potential move. The Raptors system would generate a lot more open looks than Hield has seen so far in his career. The Kings' new FO may consider moving on from Fox who isn't a very good shooter.

The Raptors could gain a strong shooter as they struggled to hit open looks in the playoffs. A former 2nd overall pick that could be molded into another Siakam, and the 12th pick that could end up being another strong shooter like Aaron Nesmith.

After the following season I would look to give Davis the starting point guard and re-sign Lowry to be the back up for a culture building and on-floor coaching role, but to also add to our team standard of continuity.

Ibaka(30 million / 1 year)/Hernandez
Siakam/Gallinari (MLE / 1 year)
OG/Nesmith(12th)
Powell/Hield
Lowry/Davis/Terry(29th)
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Re: Does Fvv have a high basketball IQ ? 

Post#52 » by RyderMike » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:44 am

High iq
Low height
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