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OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread

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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1541 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:48 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
What? Every single region is doing different things based on case load and not following the same blanket rules. Where does this "blanket approach" come from? Is there something that's being fed to people in their news that keeps wrongly quoting that?


It's been all over the news today, nothing is being misquoted

https://www.cp24.com/news/all-residents-of-ontario-should-only-celebrate-holidays-with-members-of-own-household-ford-says-1.5203559


I'm talking about every single other procedure that is in effect in each region. They differ. As do policies in long term care, hospitals etc. There is NO blanket approach being used.

And you want to hold a recommendation up as fact that the policies are different? Or would you prefer when he recommends something they do it by city and make it policy with no wiggle room? You're literally trying to argue both sides of this. It's maddening to listen to.

Maybe he should recommend nothing, let everyone in Thunder Bay have a party, then wait until it's worse and lock it down... just to be fair. No point in reminding people right? :roll:
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1542 » by jaymeister15 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:57 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
Flat out 100% wrong.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Here's the curve you're holding up as an example.


Yes, the curve that shows their 7 day rolling average death rate for the 2nd wave has so far peaked at 26 back on Nov 13---the same per capita as Canada's is currently and rising despite our lockdowns--- and is now sitting at 17 and dropping.

Again, in the last month or so they have dropped from 14th world wide in death rate to 23rd. That doesn't suggest to you that the 2nd wave is hitting them much less hard than a lot of other countries?

How is stating Sweden's goal wasn't herd immunity 100% wrong? Despite the headlines, their stated goal has always been to slow the spread in a way that is sustainable while waiting for a vaccine.

https://www.newsweek.com/herd-immunity-definitely-not-swedens-goal-coronavirus-says-chief-epidemiologist-anders-1531626

Sweden's chief epidemiologist has denied that herd immunity was the government's aim when tackling the COVID-19 pandemic.

In an interview with French broadcaster France24, Dr. Anders Tegnell said herd immunity was "definitely not" a goal.

On Friday, Tegnell told France 24: "people getting infected on purpose is of course not [in] accordance with any public health policy. We tried to slow down the spread of the virus as much as anybody else in any other country. And we managed to slow it down just as much as most other countries. It took slightly longer than other countries."

"In the end, we will see how much difference it will make to have a [...] strategy that's more sustainable that you can keep in place for a long time instead of the strategy that means that you lockdown, open and lockdown over and over again.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1543 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:04 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
Flat out 100% wrong.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Here's the curve you're holding up as an example.


Yes, the curve that shows their 7 day rolling average death rate for the 2nd wave has so far peaked at 26 back on Nov 13---the same per capita as Canada's is currently and rising despite our lockdowns--- and is now sitting at 17 and dropping.

Again, in the last month or so they have dropped from 14th world wide in death rate to 23rd. That doesn't suggest to you that the 2nd wave is hitting them much less hard than a lot of other countries?

How is stating Sweden's goal wasn't herd immunity 100% wrong? Despite the headlines, their stated goal has always been to slow the spread in a way that is sustainable while waiting for a vaccine.

https://www.newsweek.com/herd-immunity-definitely-not-swedens-goal-coronavirus-says-chief-epidemiologist-anders-1531626

Sweden's chief epidemiologist has denied that herd immunity was the government's aim when tackling the COVID-19 pandemic.

In an interview with French broadcaster France24, Dr. Anders Tegnell said herd immunity was "definitely not" a goal.

On Friday, Tegnell told France 24: "people getting infected on purpose is of course not [in] accordance with any public health policy. We tried to slow down the spread of the virus as much as anybody else in any other country. And we managed to slow it down just as much as most other countries. It took slightly longer than other countries."

"In the end, we will see how much difference it will make to have a [...] strategy that's more sustainable that you can keep in place for a long time instead of the strategy that means that you lockdown, open and lockdown over and over again.


The underlined part is brilliant. Way to argue against how great they have done on a global scale.

Slowing down for two weeks.... it's almost like putting procedures in place to slow the spread actually works. Should we discuss how their economy has fared no better than Finland, Denmark and Norway and that it made no real difference?
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1544 » by jaymeister15 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:21 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
I'm talking about every single other procedure that is in effect in each region. They differ. As do policies in long term care, hospitals etc. There is NO blanket approach being used.

And you want to hold a recommendation up as fact that the policies are different? Or would you prefer when he recommends something they do it by city and make it policy with no wiggle room? You're literally trying to argue both sides of this. It's maddening to listen to.

Maybe he should recommend nothing, let everyone in Thunder Bay have a party, then wait until it's worse and lock it down... just to be fair. No point in reminding people right? :roll:


You're the one that said the other poster must be misquoting him, all I did was point out he wasn't.

I would prefer stated guidelines issued by the government to be reasonable and rooted in the real world. Would it be great for slowing down the spread if nobody in Ontario saw family outside their household over the holidays? Sure, but we both know that is not going to happen.

To me, making an announcement with a sweeping, unrealistic guideline just causes people to tune out. Why not make their official recommendations something the majority of people will actually try to follow with advise on how to mitigate the risk when you do see family? i.e. keep gatherings to less than 10 people indoors for less than 3 hours, don't have potluck, don't hug etc.


As much as I obviously disagree with some of the current aspects of the government response, I personally have been following every guideline to date. I wear a mask every time I walk out my condo door until I am outside, my wife and I both work from home and won't be seeing anyone outside our household for the next 28 days.

When it comes to Christmas, we aren't going to do our usual extended family gathering. But, after my wife and I have both spent the last month having our only physical contact with people outside our apartment being while picking up groceries with a mask on and maintaining distance, or walking past someone on the street, I'm not going to tell my parents who live by themselves (who I've seen in person twice in the last 9 months) that we can't going to come visit for a few hours on Christmas day---while doing common sense things like not hugging, staying 6+feet away etc.

If we were in a different position---i.e had kids and they were attending school right up until Christmas, or one of us had to go into the office every day taking public transit to work, or my parents were particularly high risk---I might think differently. But, that's why I don't think asking the government to put reasonable guidelines/restrictions in place while also allowing people to assess their own risk level is unreasonable.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1545 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:25 pm

M3tro wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
jaymeister15 wrote:
I’ve only been skimming the thread since it’s really blown up again the last few weeks, but between you, Yogi, Maddog, and a couple others, I’ve lost count of how many times anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint has been called a dumbass, moron, miserable etc.


Cool, you must have skimmed past the post where the people who don’t think allowing a highly infectious novel virus to spread out of control across a dense population were compared to Germans who supported nazis. Weird how you missed that or all the sneering derision about sheep and government stooges. But go off and pretend you’re just free thinking martyrs preaching to closed minded fools. FOH with that mewling pleading for special treatment.


The truth hurts.

I'm glad that struck a chord with you.


Huh? I looked back through the thread since Jay clearly ignored all the insults directed at the smart people in this thread. You’re really as dumb as you sound if you think anyone cares about your opinion.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1546 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:27 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:
Their plan was never to obtain natural herd immunity. It was to take measures while waiting for a vaccine (social distancing, limit large events, gathering amounts, etc.) to slow the spread while also attempting to avoid the downfalls of a full lockdown.


That’s not true.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1547 » by jaymeister15 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:33 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
The underlined part is brilliant. Way to argue against how great they have done on a global scale.

Slowing down for two weeks.... it's almost like putting procedures in place to slow the spread actually works. Should we discuss how their economy has fared no better than Finland, Denmark and Norway and that it made no real difference?


I have never suggested that putting no social distancing procedures and restrictions in place is the answer, and neither did anyone in the Swedish government. There is a clear difference between restricting gathering sizes, borders, etc. and a full lockdown
Of course their economy is going to be hit to an extent on a macro level with it being export based, but they have fared a lot better than most of Europe.

https://fee.org/articles/bbc-sweden-s-economy-is-doing-way-better-than-the-rest-of-the-eu-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

While Europe plunged into a deep recession, Sweden did not.

In contrast to other European nations, Sweden’s economy actually grew slightly in the first quarter; and while second quarter results are less positive, they also nevertheless show that Sweden is an economic outlier.


Overall, the EU saw an 11.9 percent GDP drop in the second quarter, about 40 percent higher than that of Sweden.



From a micro perspective, allowing people to continue to work and keep their business afloat will clearly be beneficial in the long run for both those individuals and the economy as a whole vs all the permanent business closures we have seen for small businesses in Ontario as a whole, but particularly in Toronto.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1548 » by jaymeister15 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:35 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
jaymeister15 wrote:
Their plan was never to obtain natural herd immunity. It was to take measures while waiting for a vaccine (social distancing, limit large events, gathering amounts, etc.) to slow the spread while also attempting to avoid the downfalls of a full lockdown.


That’s not true.


I mean, I linked an article with a clear quote from their decision maker stating that was their strategy. If you want to call him a liar or suggest the strategy was dumb, then go ahead, but that is exactly what the people actually involved with the country have been saying since March (vs the headlines and quotes from completely unrelated parties)
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1549 » by M3tro » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:36 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
M3tro wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
Cool, you must have skimmed past the post where the people who don’t think allowing a highly infectious novel virus to spread out of control across a dense population were compared to Germans who supported nazis. Weird how you missed that or all the sneering derision about sheep and government stooges. But go off and pretend you’re just free thinking martyrs preaching to closed minded fools. FOH with that mewling pleading for special treatment.


The truth hurts.

I'm glad that struck a chord with you.


Huh? I looked back through the thread since Jay clearly ignored all the insults directed at the smart people in this thread. You’re really as dumb as you sound if you think anyone cares about your opinion.


You cared enough to quote it.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1550 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:37 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
jaymeister15 wrote:
Their plan was never to obtain natural herd immunity. It was to take measures while waiting for a vaccine (social distancing, limit large events, gathering amounts, etc.) to slow the spread while also attempting to avoid the downfalls of a full lockdown.


That’s not true.


I mean, I linked an article with a clear quote from their decision maker stating that was their strategy. If you want to call him a liar or suggest the strategy was dumb, then go ahead, but that is exactly what the people actually involved with the country have been saying since March (vs the headlines and quotes from completely unrelated parties)


Well here’s some more quotes from them in the linked financial times article that predicts higher levels of immunity and a lower second wave because of it.
Read on Twitter
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1551 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:37 pm

...
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1552 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:37 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
I'm talking about every single other procedure that is in effect in each region. They differ. As do policies in long term care, hospitals etc. There is NO blanket approach being used.

And you want to hold a recommendation up as fact that the policies are different? Or would you prefer when he recommends something they do it by city and make it policy with no wiggle room? You're literally trying to argue both sides of this. It's maddening to listen to.

Maybe he should recommend nothing, let everyone in Thunder Bay have a party, then wait until it's worse and lock it down... just to be fair. No point in reminding people right? :roll:


You're the one that said the other poster must be misquoting him, all I did was point out he wasn't.

I would prefer stated guidelines issued by the government to be reasonable and rooted in the real world. Would it be great for slowing down the spread if nobody in Ontario saw family outside their household over the holidays? Sure, but we both know that is not going to happen.

To me, making an announcement with a sweeping, unrealistic guideline just causes people to tune out. Why not make their official recommendations something the majority of people will actually try to follow with advise on how to mitigate the risk when you do see family? i.e. keep gatherings to less than 10 people indoors for less than 3 hours, don't have potluck, don't hug etc.


As much as I obviously disagree with some of the current aspects of the government response, I personally have been following every guideline to date. I wear a mask every time I walk out my condo door until I am outside, my wife and I both work from home and won't be seeing anyone outside our household for the next 28 days.

When it comes to Christmas, we aren't going to do our usual extended family gathering. But, after my wife and I have both spent the last month having our only physical contact with people outside our apartment being while picking up groceries with a mask on and maintaining distance, or walking past someone on the street, I'm not going to tell my parents who live by themselves (who I've seen in person twice in the last 9 months) that we can't going to come visit for a few hours on Christmas day---while doing common sense things like not hugging, staying 6+feet away etc.

If we were in a different position---i.e had kids and they were attending school right up until Christmas, or one of us had to go into the office every day taking public transit to work, or my parents were particularly high risk---I might think differently. But, that's why I don't think asking the government to put reasonable guidelines/restrictions in place while also allowing people to assess their own risk level is unreasonable.


Are you intentionally being obtuse? Read my post again. It wasn't directed to you and it wasn't about Christmas.

OMFG....government tried guidelines and people don't listen.

If your only "physical" contact is groceries, you only have yourself to blame for how you're handling this and am willing to bet you are the only one here that would be able to say that and maybe tha is why this bothers you more than seemingly everyone here... because you're doing something you didn't need to do. And you have seemingly assessed your own risk unreasonably.

Oh... and his exact quote about Xmas

"Doing so is critical if you live in a lockdown region," Ford said. "If you live alone you can join one other household. Please don't have big holiday parties."
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1553 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:39 pm

M3tro wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
M3tro wrote:
The truth hurts.

I'm glad that struck a chord with you.


Huh? I looked back through the thread since Jay clearly ignored all the insults directed at the smart people in this thread. You’re really as dumb as you sound if you think anyone cares about your opinion.


You cared enough to quote it.


Yes, as an example of the unhinged ranting of a moron that he chose to ignore in his attempt to portray you dumbasses as unfairly maligned.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1554 » by jaymeister15 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:41 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
Cool, you must have skimmed past the post where the people who don’t think allowing a highly infectious novel virus to spread out of control across a dense population were compared to Germans who supported nazis. Weird how you missed that or all the sneering derision about sheep and government stooges. But go off and pretend you’re just free thinking martyrs preaching to closed minded fools. FOH with that mewling pleading for special treatment.


[/quote]

That's fair, I honestly haven't read those posts. I hadn't opened this thread for a few weeks and just read back through the last few pages instead of going back who knows how many to find where I had last left off.

I agree that anyone comparing people who support lockdowns to Nazis is being completely ridiculous and, if anything, is worse, than the ones calling other's dumbasses, morons, etc. for questioning the extent of the lockdowns. As I said, anyone to the far extreme on either side of the argument is probably off base, nothing about this is black and white.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1555 » by M3tro » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:45 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
M3tro wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
Huh? I looked back through the thread since Jay clearly ignored all the insults directed at the smart people in this thread. You’re really as dumb as you sound if you think anyone cares about your opinion.


You cared enough to quote it.


Yes, as an example of the unhinged ranting of a moron that he chose to ignore in his attempt to portray you dumbasses as unfairly maligned.


Now you just sound butt-hurt.

Pat yourself on the back tonight kumpel. You've served your country well.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1556 » by jaymeister15 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:47 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
Well here’s some more quotes from them in the linked financial times article that predicts higher levels of immunity and a lower second wave because of it.
Read on Twitter


Yes, and none of that contradicts me saying that their stated goal wasn't natural herd immunity. It was to put restrictions in place that slow the spread, but also don't have the side effects of a full lockdown and are sustainable until a vaccine is available. Of course a theoretical benefit of that type of strategy would be smaller second waves than countries that go into full lockdown.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1557 » by jaymeister15 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:54 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
OMFG....government tried guidelines and people don't listen.

If your only "physical" contact is groceries, you only have yourself to blame for how you're handling this and am willing to bet you are the only one here that would be able to say that and maybe tha is why this bothers you more than seemingly everyone here... because you're doing something you didn't need to do. And you have seemingly assessed your own risk unreasonably.



I meant for the next 28 days prior to Christmas I will be following the guidelines for Toronto.

Until yesterday, I have gone out to eat, visited friends and family, and all the other stuff that was allowed within whatever zone or stage or colour we were in. My point was that if we go ahead and follow the current lockdown guidelines for the next 4 weeks, it's perfectly reasonable and safe to see family on Christmas day.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1558 » by NinjaBro » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:58 pm

B.C. woman has heart attack after being spat on by man refusing to wear mask


A hotel worker in Nelson suffered a heart attack shortly after a confrontation with a patron who refused to wear a mask and wouldn’t leave the hotel’s coffee shop.

Rob Little, manager of The Adventure Hotel, says it happened last Friday when their accountant was called to help deal with a man who was shouting and ignoring new provincial rules to wear a mask to
slow the spread of COVID-19.

Little says when the woman intervened, the man spat on her and walked away.

Police were called and Little says about 90 minutes later, the accountant, who’s in her 50s, collapsed from a heart attack that required her immediate transfer to hospital in Kelowna.

Nelson police say the man was taken into custody and is banned from the coffee shop pending a court appearance on an assault charge, while officers try to determine if there’s a connection between the spitting incident and the woman’s heart attack.

Little says his co-worker is conscious and able to speak with family but remains in intensive care “fighting for her life.”
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1559 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:59 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
OMFG....government tried guidelines and people don't listen.

If your only "physical" contact is groceries, you only have yourself to blame for how you're handling this and am willing to bet you are the only one here that would be able to say that and maybe tha is why this bothers you more than seemingly everyone here... because you're doing something you didn't need to do. And you have seemingly assessed your own risk unreasonably.



I meant for the next 28 days prior to Christmas I will be following the guidelines for Toronto.

Until yesterday, I have gone out to eat, visited friends and family, and all the other stuff that was allowed within whatever zone or stage or colour we were in. My point was that if we go ahead and follow the current lockdown guidelines for the next 4 weeks, it's perfectly reasonable and safe to see family on Christmas day.


There's no way to accurately conclude that and that is why we see government leaders already soft peddling and curbing expectations to keeping to your household family only.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread 

Post#1560 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:00 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
Cool, you must have skimmed past the post where the people who don’t think allowing a highly infectious novel virus to spread out of control across a dense population were compared to Germans who supported nazis. Weird how you missed that or all the sneering derision about sheep and government stooges. But go off and pretend you’re just free thinking martyrs preaching to closed minded fools. FOH with that mewling pleading for special treatment.


That's fair, I honestly haven't read those posts. I hadn't opened this thread for a few weeks and just read back through the last few pages instead of going back who knows how many to find where I had last left off.

I agree that anyone comparing people who support lockdowns to Nazis is being completely ridiculous and, if anything, is worse, than the ones calling other's dumbasses, morons, etc. for questioning the extent of the lockdowns. As I said, anyone to the far extreme on either side of the argument is probably off base, nothing about this is black and white.


Lol, thanks for thinking it might be worse to call someone a nazi than stupid. I also have some bad news about what he thinks of you, since you have been following the government mandates.

I would suggest maybe next time look at who you’re rushing to defend first.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.

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