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OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread

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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#601 » by 13th Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:54 pm

Local_NG_Idiot wrote:
13th Man wrote:



This is the conclusion from the very article in which you've cited:

Conclusion
A protective mask may reduce the likelihood of infection, but it will not eliminate the risk, particularly when a disease has more than 1 route of transmission. Thus any mask, no matter how efficient at filtration or how good the seal, will have minimal effect if it is not used in conjunction with other preventative measures, such as isolation of infected cases, immunization, good respiratory etiquette, and regular hand hygiene. An improvised face mask should be viewed as the last possible alternative if a supply of commercial face masks is not available, irrespective of the disease against which it may be required for protection. Improvised homemade face masks may be used to help protect those who could potentially, for example, be at occupational risk from close or frequent contact with symptomatic patients. However, these masks would provide the wearers little protection from microorganisms from others persons who are infected with respiratory diseases. As a result, we would not recommend the use of homemade face masks as a method of reducing transmission of infection from aerosols.


you really fail at literacy don't you.

that 2 line conclusion that you bolded is with regards to PROTECTING THE **** WEARER. For the 100th time, cloth masks have been proven to PROTECT THE PEOPLE AROUND THE WEARER.

However, these masks would provide the wearers little protection from microorganisms from others persons who are infected with respiratory diseases. As a result, we would not recommend the use of homemade face masks as a method of reducing transmission of infection from aerosols.


The portion of that study that I cited was with regards to their 'cough box'. It's called reading, try it sometime.


Continue to cherry pick studies that have little to do with Covid. Even your own article cites that cloth masks are not recommended lol.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(797 new cases Oct 8th) 

Post#602 » by 13th Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:58 pm

MadDogSHWA wrote:
13th Man wrote:
MadDogSHWA wrote:
Absolutely bodied. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyone even casually interested in real science knows what Google Sholar is. This is like when people try to tell me about COVID and the don't know the difference between the disease and the virus. I learned that in the first hour of reading in March.


Do you want a cookie for that? You can't be serious with this. How about discuss the content of the matter rather than trying to belittle a poster through ridiculous assertions. Local_NG_Idiot seems to be a master user of that tool, yet he could not provide me with one citing of evidence out of the tons that he has.

You guys with your condescending attitudes, grow up. I'm happy to discuss this rationally and am also happy to be proven incorrect if the facts present itself. Speak to me with a little bit of respect and I'll return the favour.


You're spreading dangerous misinformation that can get people killed and get people infected with a disease with dozens of long term side effects. Idiots like yourself are a big part of why Canada had over 4000 new cases yesterday.

Just. Stop. Posting.


Continue to be brainwashed by the Government and stay cooped up in your home. Talk about endangering people's health.

I'll bet that I've contributed and have donated more to struggling small businesses than you guys have while living in fear.

I'm continuing to make payments to my local gym which is $150/mo and I tip at least $5 on every order that I take out, even if the order is $10.

I feel for these small businesses that have been unfairly targeted by the Ford Gov't and will do my part to try to keep them alive.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#603 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:00 pm

13th Man wrote:Continue to cherry pick studies that have little to do with Covid. Even your own article cites that cloth masks are not recommended lol.


I provided 4 studies, which you chose not to read. As I predicted, you cited 2 lines from the cambridge one in an attempt to support your lunacy. I used that same one to rebut your lunacy with regards to cloth masks protecting the people around the wearer (which I've stated from my first reply to you and you STILL refuse to acknowledge) with their 'cough box' analysis.

You can't read, and can't understand the technical literature that's being presented. You have no idea what you are talking about and you continue to spread false information. You really should stop and at the very least, keep your garbage hot take opinions to yourself.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#604 » by 13th Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:01 pm

Local_NG_Idiot wrote:
13th Man wrote:Continue to cherry pick studies that have little to do with Covid. Even your own article cites that cloth masks are not recommended lol.


I provided 4 studies, which you chose not to read. As I predicted, you cited the one from cambridge in an attempt to support your lunacy. I used that same one to rebut your lunacy with regards to cloth masks protecting the people around the wearer (which I've stated from my first reply to you and you STILL refuse to acknowledge) with their 'cough box' analysis.

You can't read, and can't understand the technical literature that's being presented. You have no idea what you are talking about and you continue to spread false information. You really should stop and at the very least, keep your garbage hot take opinions to yourself.


You've had a condescending attitude from the start yet have been dishonest from the getgo. I've used your own articles to prove you wrong. Enough said.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#605 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:06 pm

13th Man wrote:
Local_NG_Idiot wrote:
13th Man wrote:Continue to cherry pick studies that have little to do with Covid. Even your own article cites that cloth masks are not recommended lol.


I provided 4 studies, which you chose not to read. As I predicted, you cited the one from cambridge in an attempt to support your lunacy. I used that same one to rebut your lunacy with regards to cloth masks protecting the people around the wearer (which I've stated from my first reply to you and you STILL refuse to acknowledge) with their 'cough box' analysis.

You can't read, and can't understand the technical literature that's being presented. You have no idea what you are talking about and you continue to spread false information. You really should stop and at the very least, keep your garbage hot take opinions to yourself.


You've had a condescending attitude from the start yet have been dishonest from the getgo. I've used your own articles to prove you wrong. Enough said.


lol, yup, cotton tail rabbits live in Australia.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#606 » by 13th Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:06 pm

And ftr, I have been wearing masks from day one, I have boxes of 3-ply medical grade masks. Not the crappy cloth ones that you're all wearing, thinking that you're doing everybody a great service especially yourself.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#607 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:12 pm

13th Man wrote:And ftr, I have been wearing masks from day one, I have boxes of 3-ply medical grade masks. Not the crappy cloth ones that you're all wearing, thinking that you're doing everybody a great service especially yourself.


you stated this:

13th Man wrote:
Social distancing yes. Masks, no for the most part. Not the masks that most people wear which are medical grade or cloth. The only masks that are really effective against covid and influenza are N95 masks.

https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

After reading this, I believe that unless they are N95 grade, masks do more harm than good. I've always suspected this to be true and all of the studies from the link just confirms it.


now you're stating you have been wearing non-n95 masks from the begining?.......get out of here with this garbage.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#608 » by 13th Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:14 pm

Local_NG_Idiot wrote:
13th Man wrote:And ftr, I have been wearing masks from day one, I have boxes of 3-ply medical grade masks. Not the crappy cloth ones that you're all wearing, thinking that you're doing everybody a great service especially yourself.


you stated this:

13th Man wrote:
Social distancing yes. Masks, no for the most part. Not the masks that most people wear which are medical grade or cloth. The only masks that are really effective against covid and influenza are N95 masks.

https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

After reading this, I believe that unless they are N95 grade, masks do more harm than good. I've always suspected this to be true and all of the studies from the link just confirms it.


now you're stating you have been wearing non-n95 masks from the begining?.......get out of here with this garbage.


Not N95, the blue 3-ply ones. I have like 300 of these, why would I be lying?
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#609 » by 13th Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:24 pm

The WHO has come out to say that lockdowns should only be imposed as a last resort.

The CDC and other studies have concluded at cloth masks should only be worn as a last resort.

How many of these last resorts are you guys going to blindly accept with no questions asked? The real damage is being done to the long term health and well being of the community and we'll all be paying for this over the next 10 to 20 years. It's also taking a toll on the physical and mental health of everyone as well. Continue to live in hysteria while the death rate from covid is less than half a percent of the general population.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#610 » by ItsDanger » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:35 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:


"Joe" mentions droplets at 5-10 um. Need to go a lot smaller than that. Always question someone who uses soft language like "most" "usually", etc. "Joe" uses pulse oximeter to see if mask impacts his blood oxygen. He needs to perform arterial gas test here and assess the stress on cardio/pulmonary system. I see a lot of doctor videos on these, I don't know what Joe's background is. Really should have engineers. Medical people know little about the equipment they use, why would they? Its like someone asking me how a computer works.

Bottom line, the effectiveness of the masks is overrated. Do they help? Yes. Is it enough given smaller spaces, longer durations, higher viral loads? Video doesn't answer these. And that is not by accident.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#611 » by Wo1verine » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:20 pm

Can't wait for Ford and his doctors to provide evidence that justifies closing down small businesses - I think they got nothing and if that's the case - everything should be opened up asap.

I'm glad mayors and some councilors are finally waking up and starting to ask questions that haven't been answered yet.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#612 » by mtcan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:25 pm

13th Man wrote:The WHO has come out to say that lockdowns should only be imposed as a last resort.

The CDC and other studies have concluded at cloth masks should only be worn as a last resort.

How many of these last resorts are you guys going to blindly accept with no questions asked? The real damage is being done to the long term health and well being of the community and we'll all be paying for this over the next 10 to 20 years. It's also taking a toll on the physical and mental health of everyone as well. Continue to live in hysteria while the death rate from covid is less than half a percent of the general population.

I don't know what last resort means. Is it when case numbers are in the thousands (because is actually is, in Canada) or when hospital capacity is maxes out (which is beyond the point of last resort). We also know that increase in case numbers inevitably leads to increasing hospitalizations. This is common sense. The point of these measures is to avoid the real last resort which is when tough decisions have to made as who gets the ventilator and who gets to die. This has already happened in other parts of the world. We don't need to get to that point. That is the real last resort.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#613 » by Kevin Willis » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:30 pm

ItsDanger wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:


"Joe" mentions droplets at 5-10 um. Need to go a lot smaller than that. Always question someone who uses soft language like "most" "usually", etc. "Joe" uses pulse oximeter to see if mask impacts his blood oxygen. He needs to perform arterial gas test here and assess the stress on cardio/pulmonary system. I see a lot of doctor videos on these, I don't know what Joe's background is. Really should have engineers. Medical people know little about the equipment they use, why would they? Its like someone asking me how a computer works.

Bottom line, the effectiveness of the masks is overrated. Do they help? Yes. Is it enough given smaller spaces, longer durations, higher viral loads? Video doesn't answer these. And that is not by accident.


Joe Hanson you mean? He works for PBS. His background.

Joe Hanson, Ph.D., is a science writer, biologist, and YouTube educator. He is the creator and host of It’s Okay To Be Smart, an award-winning science education show from PBS Digital Studios that celebrates curiosity and the pleasure of finding things out. He received his Ph.D. from the University of Texas at Austin, and his science writing has been published by WIRED, Nautilus, Scientific American and Texas Monthly.

It's also important to note that his audience are regular people so he dumbs it down to make it understandable and he does a good job of it. Droplets can range in size from 1 - 16 microns. For him to say 5 - 10 is reasonable. His point was that droplets are larger than the virus and he's right.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18158720/

His goal was to measure oxygen content and not the stress on the cardio system. You're projecting what you want onto what he wants to show and that is you can get the oxygen you need while wearing six masks. He also doesn't recommend doing that for obvious reasons, but that wasn't his point.

Engineers are not doctors. Why not have textile or fabric creators? But since you wanted engineers, here is a study from engineers on the effectiveness of different masks.



I must say I am disappointed you don't believe masks are helpful. It's bothersome, I wouldn't put you in that camp. The video itself clearly states that nothing is 100% effective but using masks in combination with social distancing and hygiene helps the odds. If people are waiting for a cure or something that's 100% effective - good luck with that.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#614 » by Wo1verine » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:36 pm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/10/05/who-estimates-coronavirus-infected-10-of-worlds-population/#78e57f794430

10% is 780 million with 1.1M dead - 0.14% and that number promise you is extremely inflated.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#615 » by 13th Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:38 pm

mtcan wrote:
13th Man wrote:The WHO has come out to say that lockdowns should only be imposed as a last resort.

The CDC and other studies have concluded at cloth masks should only be worn as a last resort.

How many of these last resorts are you guys going to blindly accept with no questions asked? The real damage is being done to the long term health and well being of the community and we'll all be paying for this over the next 10 to 20 years. It's also taking a toll on the physical and mental health of everyone as well. Continue to live in hysteria while the death rate from covid is less than half a percent of the general population.

I don't know what last resort means. Is it when case numbers are in the thousands (because is actually is, in Canada) or when hospital capacity is maxes out (which is beyond the point of last resort). We also know that increase in case numbers inevitably leads to increasing hospitalizations. This is common sense. The point of these measures is to avoid the real last resort which is when tough decisions have to made as who gets the ventilator and who gets to die. This has already happened in other parts of the world. We don't need to get to that point. That is the real last resort.


The symptoms of Covid seem to have gotten milder and less dangerous. The hospitals in Ontario are not being overwhelmed. That was the whole purpose behind flattening the curve in the first place. They've jumped the gun on the latest measures imposed imo. Small businesses are getting further destroyed as well as the public's physical and mental health.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#616 » by mtcan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:39 pm

Wo1verine wrote:https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/10/05/who-estimates-coronavirus-infected-10-of-worlds-population/#78e57f794430

10% is 780 million with 1.1M dead - 0.14% and that number promise you is extremely inflated.

1 million is not just a number. These are people...not numbers. The number doesn't include you or someone you love obviously but if it did you would feel differently.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#617 » by mtcan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:40 pm

13th Man wrote:
mtcan wrote:
13th Man wrote:The WHO has come out to say that lockdowns should only be imposed as a last resort.

The CDC and other studies have concluded at cloth masks should only be worn as a last resort.

How many of these last resorts are you guys going to blindly accept with no questions asked? The real damage is being done to the long term health and well being of the community and we'll all be paying for this over the next 10 to 20 years. It's also taking a toll on the physical and mental health of everyone as well. Continue to live in hysteria while the death rate from covid is less than half a percent of the general population.

I don't know what last resort means. Is it when case numbers are in the thousands (because is actually is, in Canada) or when hospital capacity is maxes out (which is beyond the point of last resort). We also know that increase in case numbers inevitably leads to increasing hospitalizations. This is common sense. The point of these measures is to avoid the real last resort which is when tough decisions have to made as who gets the ventilator and who gets to die. This has already happened in other parts of the world. We don't need to get to that point. That is the real last resort.


The symptoms of Covid seem to have gotten milder and less dangerous. The hospitals in Ontario are not being overwhelmed. That was the whole purpose behind flattening the curve in the first place. They've jumped the gun on the latest measures imposed imo. Small businesses are getting further destroyed as well as the public's physical and mental health.

I know Hospitalizations aren't overwhelmed right now. Let's keep cases down and therefore, Hospitalizations.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#618 » by ItsDanger » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:56 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:
ItsDanger wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:


"Joe" mentions droplets at 5-10 um. Need to go a lot smaller than that. Always question someone who uses soft language like "most" "usually", etc. "Joe" uses pulse oximeter to see if mask impacts his blood oxygen. He needs to perform arterial gas test here and assess the stress on cardio/pulmonary system. I see a lot of doctor videos on these, I don't know what Joe's background is. Really should have engineers. Medical people know little about the equipment they use, why would they? Its like someone asking me how a computer works.

Bottom line, the effectiveness of the masks is overrated. Do they help? Yes. Is it enough given smaller spaces, longer durations, higher viral loads? Video doesn't answer these. And that is not by accident.


Joe Hanson you mean? He works for PBS. His background.

Joe Hanson, Ph.D., is a science writer, biologist, and YouTube educator. He is the creator and host of It’s Okay To Be Smart, an award-winning science education show from PBS Digital Studios that celebrates curiosity and the pleasure of finding things out. He received his Ph.D. from the University of Texas at Austin, and his science writing has been published by WIRED, Nautilus, Scientific American and Texas Monthly.

It's also important to note that his audience are regular people so he dumbs it down to make it understandable and he does a good job of it. Droplets can range in size from 1 - 16 microns. For him to say 5 - 10 is reasonable. His point was that droplets are larger than the virus and he's right.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18158720/

His goal was to measure oxygen content and not the stress on the cardio system. You're projecting what you want onto what he wants to show and that is you can get the oxygen you need while wearing six masks. He also doesn't recommend doing that for obvious reasons, but that wasn't his point.

Engineers are not doctors. Why not have textile or fabric creators? But since you wanted engineers, here is a study from engineers on the effectiveness of different masks.



I must say I am disappointed you don't believe masks are helpful. It's bothersome, I wouldn't put you in that camp. The video itself clearly states that nothing is 100% effective but using masks in combination with social distancing and hygiene helps the odds. If people are waiting for a cure or something that's 100% effective - good luck with that.


I think they are helpful, but the benefit is exaggerated. Pretty good for durations like visiting a store and similar activities. His droplets are in reference to sneezing and coughing. Its the exhaling of bioaerosols that go smaller that they should be focusing on. Joe is a trained biologist, they aren't experts on the equipment. Other professionals certify and rate the equipment. I would refer to pre 2020 material. if he was straight, he would admit only a hazmat suit can protect you adequately.

Place 20 people in a bus for an hour all wearing surgical masks. One is positive with infectious virus. Ask the doctor what is the probability of someone else being infected. If these videos cannot answer scenarios like this, I would question them.

In summary, these experts miss the practical nature of our society. In Ontario, 14 million people, a low probability can result in a 1000 positive cases. I await the day they grow a culture cell from a positive case.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#619 » by RoLo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:19 pm

Wolverine back at it again. hilarious
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Re: OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread ***(746 new cases Oct 13th) 

Post#620 » by Kevin Willis » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:29 pm

13th Man wrote:
mtcan wrote:
13th Man wrote:The WHO has come out to say that lockdowns should only be imposed as a last resort.

The CDC and other studies have concluded at cloth masks should only be worn as a last resort.

How many of these last resorts are you guys going to blindly accept with no questions asked? The real damage is being done to the long term health and well being of the community and we'll all be paying for this over the next 10 to 20 years. It's also taking a toll on the physical and mental health of everyone as well. Continue to live in hysteria while the death rate from covid is less than half a percent of the general population.

I don't know what last resort means. Is it when case numbers are in the thousands (because is actually is, in Canada) or when hospital capacity is maxes out (which is beyond the point of last resort). We also know that increase in case numbers inevitably leads to increasing hospitalizations. This is common sense. The point of these measures is to avoid the real last resort which is when tough decisions have to made as who gets the ventilator and who gets to die. This has already happened in other parts of the world. We don't need to get to that point. That is the real last resort.


The symptoms of Covid seem to have gotten milder and less dangerous. The hospitals in Ontario are not being overwhelmed. That was the whole purpose behind flattening the curve in the first place. They've jumped the gun on the latest measures imposed imo. Small businesses are getting further destroyed as well as the public's physical and mental health.


That is a strong possibility that they jumped the gun this time. Very, very possible. However they took a ton of criticism for being too slow to react at the beginning, I don't blame them for being a little gun shy. If your boss chews you out for responding too early , next time you will be early or you might lose that job is what you will be thinking. Plus saving lives is a major concern. I want to see the economy open up more but the lives thing gets me every time.

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