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Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league?

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Where would you rank Fred?

Top 5
3
2%
Top 10
20
14%
Top 15
59
41%
Top 20
37
26%
Top 25
25
17%
 
Total votes: 144

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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#21 » by Steelo Green » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:15 am

fbalmeida wrote:Answered in another thread.

Right now I'd rank him as 7th behind:

Doncic
Steph
Dame
Murray
Paul
Kyle



Going forward and factoring in age and future progression, I'd rank him 9th behind:

Doncic
Steph
Trae
Morant
Murray
Lavine
Dame
and maybe Graham.

Among relevant qualifiers at PG, Fred is:

7th in 3pt%
3rd in steals.
1st in deflections.
5th in defensive rating.
11th in offensive win shares.
2nd in defensive win shares.
5th in DBPM
8th in BPM
and 8th in VORP (!)

Steelo's deep dive into Fred's point-guard-acy. :lol:

Wow, this is sad.

First of all, BBREF stats are based on estimates and raw stats combined lol. NBA.com is the site to go to as well as using the skills that he has.

Go read them yourself, VORP, DBPM, BPM, they are all based on estimates based on raw stats

The only stats of value you posted are three point percentage, deflections, and steals.

Fred is a good PG defender, but he is not a good defender when caught in a switch due to lack of size.

Fred is a good three point shooter, but that's about it, and he needs others to make the plays for him as he cannot finish around the rim or score in the midrange. What will happen when no one is creating plays for him to hit open threes and he has no other way to score? Again, the team relies all on Kyle and will fall apart when he leaves or ages.

You would really take Fred over Donovan Mitchell, Kyrie Irving, Fox, Simmons, Walker, Brogdon?

I should also add Jrue Holiday to the list.

This is going to be comical in a few years looking back.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#22 » by Skeezo » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:26 am

I have a difficult time answering this question because certain factors need to be considered, namely money...

For example,

I'm taking M.Smart at 13m per season versus FVV at 20m+ per season... Similarly, I would take FVV at 15m per season over K.Irving at 34m... However, not sure I would take FVV at 25m per year over Irving at 34m (Actually, probably would not want either at that price).
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#23 » by casual_raps_fan » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:11 am

He's an average starter for a playoff team.

Defensively he's an elite point of attack defender who is amazing at fighting through screens, amazing hands, perfect rotations. He is not good at switching because of his size which limits his versatility.

Offensively, he functions best as a shooting guard that can take on ball handling duties and stretch the floor with deep range. He also has penetration skills but is a terrible finisher inside the paint and hasn't shown much creative playmaking skills.

The biggest question is whether he can be a full time point guard without the help of Lowry. If he can function as a floor general for a playoff team, that would raise his value a lot. My expectations are low though since I haven't been too happy with his offensive decision making.

Overall he's a super solid glue guy who can bring useful things to the table both offensively and defensively. You can put him beside any super star and he'll have a role on the team.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#24 » by fbalmeida » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:51 am

Steelo Green wrote:You would really take Fred over Donovan Mitchell, Kyrie Irving, Fox, Simmons, Walker, Brogdon?


Have you actually seen what Fred and Mitchell matchups look like? LOL. I take Fred.

Kyrie will make the highlights and get his numbers but will poison your team's chemistry. I'd take Fred.

Fox has potential but at this point in his career, struggles from outside, is a defensive sieve and is far more careless with the ball. I'd take Fred.

Simmons isn't a PG.

Walker is a tremendous shot creator, but Fred is vastly superior defensively. Close, but I'd take Fred on account of his age and contract. This maps onto Fred having been slightly statistically superior to Kemba in the 7game series.

Brogdon is a chronically injured player that struggled mightily with his shot, is inferior defensively, a less efficient shooter, and even more miserable finisher at the rim than Fred. I'd place him decidedly a few rungs below Fred.

In the actual NBA, Fred is a more valuable piece than any of these PGs. i'd imagine if we're talking about NBA2K-watever, which I've never played nor plan to, then I'd probably place Fred below all of them. But real live basketball ain't a video game.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#25 » by dhackett1565 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:28 am

Real tough to say considering he is a shooting guard.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#26 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:34 am

Oh look...this guy is so self important that he needs his very own thread to trash FVV and argue with every single person that posts. Doing it in the last four threads and at every other opportunity wasn’t enough.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#27 » by fbalmeida » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:12 pm

I actually think it's a good exercise to think about, look at, and hammer out how we think our guys measure up individually against the competition.

Between Steelo's loathing of his own team's players and the homerism (mine and that of four others apparently) of over-evaluating the familiar intangibles and defensive value of our players, we're bound to find some reasonable distribution and consensus.

I'm hatching a thread like this for how OG ranks among small-forwards.
We should also have one for Siakam at the 4.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#28 » by fbalmeida » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:30 pm

Corrected a stat I referred to on page 1. Among starting PG's Fred is 2nd in defensive rating, and not 5th.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#29 » by Raps in 4 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:32 pm

With an RPM of 1.92 this year, he'd be ranked #15 among PGs (he's listed as a SG). Remove the low usage guys from the list and he's in the top-10.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#30 » by bballsparkin » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:47 pm

Interesting that I don't recall any mention of SGA. Considering some of the names listed why not SGA at PG? Or even Beal? PG seems to be a pretty broad term these days.

My main concern is over-paying Fred. His defense is really good for his size and he has a great three point shot. His decision making can be frustrating. Stop taking it to the hoop when it's not working.

This thread got me looking over available PG's and the contracts of PG's already signed. Pretty bleak. FVV is definitely getting paid. I hope Raps can get a PG with the first pick. That or a big.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#31 » by kalel123 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:56 pm

This is that idiotic trolling hate thread 2.0 that eventually got locked down. Created by same person.

I'd implore everyone to not waste time on the guy and refrain from posting.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#32 » by VanWest82 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:17 pm

Steelo Green wrote:For the millionth time winning player is overrated. He had Kawhi last year so he could stand on the side and hit open threes.

If you have to argue something a million times maybe it's time to re-think your assumptions.

So much for winning player when he was 10 points below league average efficiency against length in Boston. Or is that not winning enough for you.

That's what happens to guys who aren't stars when you get the wrong match up deep into the playoffs. Is Dame bad because he sucked vs. Pelicans and Warriors? At least Fred was excellent defensively.

Derek Fischer was a winning player too who hit big shots. Don't consider him one of the best in the league just cause.

Fish put up 11/3/2 in his prime. Even you know this example is ridiculous.

Name me 10 guys Fred is definitely better than on that list. People are just saying it and really going to just ignore lol. To say Fred is better than 10 guys on that list is pure homerism.

Here are the little guys who are definitely ahead of Fred. No one taller than 6'3. If you include Luka or even Simmons then you have to include Lebron and the whole exercise becomes pointless.

Steph
Harden
CP
Dame
Mitchell
Murray
Kemba
Kyrie
Russ
Jrue
Edit: forgot Kyle lol

The rest are debatable. A bunch of young players who haven't proven they're good enough to win yet. I might put Trae Young ahead of Fred but not if my team has championship aspirations. After watching what Raptors and Heat did to Kemba, a better defender, Trae might not even be playable defensively after the first round.

But beyond top ten rankings or whatever stage you want to use to knock Fred, the part you're missing is he's our second best player. Watch the way the coaches and players react to him. Look at the positions we're putting him in. I guess you must think that Nurse is a giant idiot. Fred is the leader of the team along with Lowry. There's value beyond his box score.

If you want to blame someone for the Celtics series, blame Siakam. Fred shouldn't have had to be the man in the first place.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#33 » by Lukeem » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:14 pm

Steelo Green wrote:Some posters believe Fred is the best defensive PG in the NBA and a top 5-10 PG in the league so worth the money.

I think that is laughable and listed the following players who either you would take currently over Fred, or would have on your roster moving forward:

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Now some are arguable, I will agree, but the arguable ones are probably right around the same level of Fred.

Personally there are at least 15 guys who are surefire better than Fred (let's take away contract and just how good they are as players), and then the rest are young and you would take moving forward over Fred, or the guys right at the same level of Fred.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?



Interesting how you rank players that are like a year younger over fvv because they have more “potential” in your eyes but players that are like 10 years older or more you also put over fvv despite fvv obviously having more potential.


Then you also count fvv as lower value because he might sign for a lot of money but players like Westbrook who will be averaging 45 mill a year for next three years don’t get that counting against them.


By using the reverse of your logic Actual point guards (no debate that they run the offence and can guard point guards) that are clearly better And more valuable assets than FVV While guessing at his contract

Steph curry
Damian lillard


Does that make fvv the third best point guard in the league. If we are judging every other player the way you’re trying to judge fvv he would like 3 rd best in the league.




He is clearly outside the top 5 imo. Somewhere in the top 15 probably. As a 25 year old hopefully (if he signs with raps ) he keeps improving similar to Lowrys improvements over the next five years.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#34 » by Grew » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:44 pm

If you are defining the top 10 by who has the most potential then Fred isn't even close. If you are defining it by who has actually proven something in meaningful minutes with a team that is going some place, then Fred is just a little outside of the top 10 probably.

A lot of guys like Trae Young who put up stats but have yet to contribute to winning. Then there is a guy like Kyrie who has a lot of skill but is a terrible teammate. Really just depends on how you look at it.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#35 » by Clay Davis » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:55 pm

Were there lots of players hunting Fred for mismatches? I mean, we use so much zone and smart pre-switching that his size isn't much of a liability at all.

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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#36 » by agkagk » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:04 pm

12th

Murray and some of those other guys are shooting guards regardless of team composition and passing skills.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#37 » by Jef » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:31 pm

The TIME this guy Steelo has, for all this, tho.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#38 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:33 pm

When Fred plays with Kyle he is a good PG because they can share ballhandling/playmaking. Albeit too small a backcourt combo.

But Fred on a team as the only, main PG? He would be above average if that. Running a team is not his strength
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#39 » by GordanFreeman » Thu Oct 1, 2020 12:18 am

If your fathe*ahem* Colonjello had picked him, you'd be singing his praises. He's a top 15 pg with some untapped potential.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#40 » by casual_raps_fan » Thu Oct 1, 2020 1:08 am

fbalmeida wrote:I actually think it's a good exercise to think about, look at, and hammer out how we think our guys measure up individually against the competition.

Between Steelo's loathing of his own team's players and the homerism (mine and that of four others apparently) of over-evaluating the familiar intangibles and defensive value of our players, we're bound to find some reasonable distribution and consensus.

I'm hatching a thread like this for how OG ranks among small-forwards.
We should also have one for Siakam at the 4.

Good idea but one problem I find with this is that comparing players isn't always black and white.

-Some players play the same position but a complete different role
-Players have strengths and weaknesses that might be more or less useful to different teams/coaches
-Some players are tweeners or play multiple positions
-Some positions overlap a lot (e.g. small forwards and power forwards)

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