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Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league?

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Where would you rank Fred?

Top 5
3
2%
Top 10
20
14%
Top 15
59
41%
Top 20
37
26%
Top 25
25
17%
 
Total votes: 144

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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#41 » by iBall101 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:14 am

Top 15 to top 20 range. If he can excel his playmaking (higher assist numbers) and IQ (shot selection) he'll be fine. He needs to be a tempo pusher kinda PG, he's an excellent finisher in the paint.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#42 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:45 am

fbalmeida wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:You would really take Fred over Donovan Mitchell, Kyrie Irving, Fox, Simmons, Walker, Brogdon?


Have you actually seen what Fred and Mitchell matchups look like? LOL. I take Fred.

Kyrie will make the highlights and get his numbers but will poison your team's chemistry. I'd take Fred.

Fox has potential but at this point in his career, struggles from outside, is a defensive sieve and is far more careless with the ball. I'd take Fred.

Simmons isn't a PG.

Walker is a tremendous shot creator, but Fred is vastly superior defensively. Close, but I'd take Fred on account of his age and contract. This maps onto Fred having been slightly statistically superior to Kemba in the 7game series.

Brogdon is a chronically injured player that struggled mightily with his shot, is inferior defensively, a less efficient shooter, and even more miserable finisher at the rim than Fred. I'd place him decidedly a few rungs below Fred.

In the actual NBA, Fred is a more valuable piece than any of these PGs. i'd imagine if we're talking about NBA2K-watever, which I've never played nor plan to, then I'd probably place Fred below all of them. But real live basketball ain't a video game.

Look, you would take Fred over Trae, this argument is over and it’s comical.

It’s funny how people act because someone disagree that it’s 2Kesque when the irony is Fred on 2K (haven’t played in years, I’m quite old) is probably better then he is in real life.

Everyone on planet earth would take Mitchell over Fred lol. Mitchell was scoring 50 against the conference final Nuggets in an excellent series. Fred shot 10 points below league average efficiency against Boston - or is that a made up stat?

Kyrie averaged 30 points in the NBA finals. Kyrie is a head case but he’s Kyrie. You take that talent in a heartbeat.

Fox isn’t a defensive sieve lol. I don’t know why you just want to believe what you want. Everyone takes him in a heartbeat.

Your lovable BBREF lists Simmons as a Pg so...

Fred’s D is used so heavily lol. He defended Steph in the Box1 where he averaged 30 on 60% TS :lol: so forgive me if he’s been overrated a bit

Kemba is better than Fred, get real. He was also the same guy who was useless against Philly and half of Milwaukee and then pathetic against the Celtics just 2 weeks ago but people just look at what the Brooklyn G league series? Can’t look at the success and not the failure only.

Brogdon is better than Fred lol. He’s a better defender with size and can finish and score in the midrange and play make. So much for injuries - he played the same amount as Fred over the last two years :lol: :lol:

Fred shot 11/14 in the conference finals after shooting 20 percent against Philly. He then shot 10 points below against Boston but his 5’11 great D for his mediocre O where he basically is just good at the long ball is better than all those guys.

Raptors fans at their finest.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#43 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:50 am

Johnny Bball wrote:Oh look...this guy is so self important that he needs his very own thread to trash FVV and argue with every single person that posts. Doing it in the last four threads and at every other opportunity wasn’t enough.

Self important? It’s a pretty valid question lol.

I just go against the grain.

It’s a forum, if everyone was just yes men it wouldn’t make it interesting, or are your knees not ashy enough being around Masai?
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#44 » by SharoneWright » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:52 am

Right behind Delon Wright. ;)
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#45 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:54 am

fbalmeida wrote:Corrected a stat I referred to on page 1. Among starting PG's Fred is 2nd in defensive rating, and not 5th.

Bbref lol. An estimate.

He’s actually pretty good but he’s 5th in PGs and his teammate Kyle is ahead of him, something I think will make a big change when he’s gone as I’ve said.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#46 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:57 am

Raps in 4 wrote:With an RPM of 1.92 this year, he'd be ranked #15 among PGs (he's listed as a SG). Remove the low usage guys from the list and he's in the top-10.

RPM has Rubio, Pat Bev, and Schroeder (actually someone I compare Fred to but people don’t want to hear it).

Not the best stat.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#47 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:58 am

kalel123 wrote:This is that idiotic trolling hate thread 2.0 that eventually got locked down. Created by same person.

I'd implore everyone to not waste time on the guy and refrain from posting.

Thank you for adding to the discussion.

You brought a lot to the table.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#48 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:59 am

bballsparkin wrote:Interesting that I don't recall any mention of SGA. Considering some of the names listed why not SGA at PG? Or even Beal? PG seems to be a pretty broad term these days.

My main concern is over-paying Fred. His defense is really good for his size and he has a great three point shot. His decision making can be frustrating. Stop taking it to the hoop when it's not working.

This thread got me looking over available PG's and the contracts of PG's already signed. Pretty bleak. FVV is definitely getting paid. I hope Raps can get a PG with the first pick. That or a big.

Thanks for adding SGA, I honestly forgot. This is what I’m saying, lot of great PGs or future PGs in the league. Most of which are better or will be better than Fred.

I don’t mind Fred but not at stupid money.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#49 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:02 am

Jef wrote:The TIME this guy Steelo has, for all this, tho.

To write 20 names?

I write about 100 emails a day at work.

Typing from my phone takes a couple minutes but sure.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#50 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:03 am

GordanFreeman wrote:If your fathe*ahem* Colonjello had picked him, you'd be singing his praises. He's a top 15 pg with some untapped potential.

You are great at adding to the discussion.

With nuance and advanced stats.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#51 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:03 am

WaltFrazier wrote:When Fred plays with Kyle he is a good PG because they can share ballhandling/playmaking. Albeit too small a backcourt combo.

But Fred on a team as the only, main PG? He would be above average if that. Running a team is not his strength

Finally someone gets it.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#52 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:19 am

VanWest82 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:For the millionth time winning player is overrated. He had Kawhi last year so he could stand on the side and hit open threes.

If you have to argue something a million times maybe it's time to re-think your assumptions.

So much for winning player when he was 10 points below league average efficiency against length in Boston. Or is that not winning enough for you.

That's what happens to guys who aren't stars when you get the wrong match up deep into the playoffs. Is Dame bad because he sucked vs. Pelicans and Warriors? At least Fred was excellent defensively.

Derek Fischer was a winning player too who hit big shots. Don't consider him one of the best in the league just cause.

Fish put up 11/3/2 in his prime. Even you know this example is ridiculous.

Name me 10 guys Fred is definitely better than on that list. People are just saying it and really going to just ignore lol. To say Fred is better than 10 guys on that list is pure homerism.

Here are the little guys who are definitely ahead of Fred. No one taller than 6'3. If you include Luka or even Simmons then you have to include Lebron and the whole exercise becomes pointless.

Steph
Harden
CP
Dame
Mitchell
Murray
Kemba
Kyrie
Russ
Jrue

The rest are debatable. A bunch of young players who haven't proven they're good enough to win yet. I might put Trae Young ahead of Fred but not if my team has championship aspirations. After watching what Raptors and Heat did to Kemba, a better defender, Trae might not even be playable defensively after the first round.

But beyond top ten rankings or whatever stage you want to use to knock Fred, the part you're missing is he's our second best player. Watch the way the coaches and players react to him. Look at the positions we're putting him in. I guess you must think that Nurse is a giant idiot. Fred is the leader of the team along with Lowry. There's value beyond his box score.

If you want to blame someone for the Celtics series, blame Siakam. Fred shouldn't have had to be the man in the first place.

No, see, what homers do is they find these eclectic things to parry on about like winning players, and ignore that same player was a losing player for half of the playoffs last year, and then this year he was a loser who shot 10 points below league average efficiency against a team that had size in Boston. Or do people not deal in stats anymore, here, let's look:

Image

I enjoy the bait and switch people do from Fred to a guy like Dame who has also had failures - it doesn't work because that player is a star or superstar is the number one option, not a role player. Do you think you switch Fred with Dame last year and he doesn't do really well? It is a lot easier to be a guy versus the number one option.

Dame also led them to the conference finals as the guy. This is an asinine comparison, the star player is the star who has the number one role and has had great performances leading them.

Fischer was brought up as this "winning player" people get so hyped up about. Fred also has had insane usage where he looked pretty terrible with no inside game, midrange game, or playmaking at all. Like I said, he is just a glorified three point shooter.

No, I go by players who are listed as PGs. Size has nothing to do with it, Lebron is listed as a SF. But sure, if you want to add Lebron, go ahead, that makes one more guy lol, hell Jokic, sure, another, Harden too, great, SGA should be I actually forgot about him, so it is looking worse for Fred.

You would pick Fred over Trae, Ja, Kyle, Brogdon lol. If we pay Fred stupid money and Kyle breaks down, this will be a trainwreck.

Fred isn't our second best player. It is Kyle and Siakam.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#53 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:20 am

he will fluctuate between top 10 and top 15 if he was the defactor lead guard in toronto with no checks. Nurse lets him do anything.

but I think ultimately he's just out of the top 10 an my propensity that he's reached his ceiling as a player. sure he could average 20 ppg and 8-10 assists due to volume and usage but at what cost... I.e. %s and effectiveness over the course of the game. could see a lot of chucking during the season. diminishing returns. 27 at the start of next season. what you see in him today is basically what he will be the next 3-4. years in his prime.

thats if he's a raptor at the beginning of the season. out of the Raptors system, I think he'll be a top 20 pg.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#54 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:23 am

Lukeem wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Some posters believe Fred is the best defensive PG in the NBA and a top 5-10 PG in the league so worth the money.

I think that is laughable and listed the following players who either you would take currently over Fred, or would have on your roster moving forward:

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Now some are arguable, I will agree, but the arguable ones are probably right around the same level of Fred.

Personally there are at least 15 guys who are surefire better than Fred (let's take away contract and just how good they are as players), and then the rest are young and you would take moving forward over Fred, or the guys right at the same level of Fred.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?



Interesting how you rank players that are like a year younger over fvv because they have more “potential” in your eyes but players that are like 10 years older or more you also put over fvv despite fvv obviously having more potential.


Then you also count fvv as lower value because he might sign for a lot of money but players like Westbrook who will be averaging 45 mill a year for next three years don’t get that counting against them.


By using the reverse of your logic Actual point guards (no debate that they run the offence and can guard point guards) that are clearly better And more valuable assets than FVV While guessing at his contract

Steph curry
Damian lillard


Does that make fvv the third best point guard in the league. If we are judging every other player the way you’re trying to judge fvv he would like 3 rd best in the league.




He is clearly outside the top 5 imo. Somewhere in the top 15 probably. As a 25 year old hopefully (if he signs with raps ) he keeps improving similar to Lowrys improvements over the next five years.

No.... no no.

That's not at all what I did. What I did was list guys better, or guys who you would take for the future moving forward, or I think are in the same category.

I would take Lonzo on my team moving forward over Fred, yes, and if you think the Pelicans would trade Zo for Fred, you're wrong, they would not.

WB is better than Fred yes.

If Fred gets 25 mil, then he is a negative asset, still quite a bit worse than WB. Don't want either, but they are both negatives assets who won't win a damn thing as your lead guard. One still better than the other.

Kyle and Fred need to stop being compared to one another - they care completely different players.

Kyle is an elite playmaker, a true floor general, who can score around the basket, make plays for others, can score in the mid range, has the inbetween game, can back down as a PG, can literally do a bit of everything.

Fred is a mediocre playmaker who can shoot the three, and can do little else scoring wise and can be shut down with size.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#55 » by Johnny Bball » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:23 am

Steelo Green wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:Oh look...this guy is so self important that he needs his very own thread to trash FVV and argue with every single person that posts. Doing it in the last four threads and at every other opportunity wasn’t enough.

Self important? It’s a pretty valid question lol.

I just go against the grain.

It’s a forum, if everyone was just yes men it wouldn’t make it interesting, or are your knees not ashy enough being around Masai?


Lol at you thinking you make it interesting. You don’t go against the grain, you just make real bad hot takes and worse campaigns.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#56 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:34 am

Johnny Bball wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:Oh look...this guy is so self important that he needs his very own thread to trash FVV and argue with every single person that posts. Doing it in the last four threads and at every other opportunity wasn’t enough.

Self important? It’s a pretty valid question lol.

I just go against the grain.

It’s a forum, if everyone was just yes men it wouldn’t make it interesting, or are your knees not ashy enough being around Masai?


Lol at you thinking you make it interesting. You don’t go against the grain, you just make real bad hot takes and campaigns.

Really? Now you have yet to actually respond with anything other than pontificating your hubris, when stats, factual historical events are brought up.

Do you think you are above responding with anything? I mean it must be nice to think of yourself that highly without having any valid reason for it.

"Wow your point sucks"

Oh, did you add to the discussion and bring anything to the table?

I didn't say Paul Watson > Kobe, I said Fred is middle of the pack in terms of PGs in the league and to pay him would make him a negative asset.

Now if that's hyperbole and striving for attention, then it would probably be best not to engage in high fivers who think saying anything negative means your opinion or point is invalidated.

After watching the Demar years, I see what I see, and Fred is a solid role player but not someone you build around, and standing around as Kawhi's marksman doesn't make him that.

Here let me bring up a familiar players stats in the NBA finals.

In 2013 a 25 year old Danny Green was a Ray Allen miracle 3 away from a finals MVP.

Here, want some proof:

https://hoopshabit.com/2020/04/24/spurs-remember-danny-green-finals-mvp/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1675564-danny-green-deserves-2013-nba-finals-mvp-award-if-spurs-beat-heat
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2013/06/17/who-is-danny-green-oh-maybe-the-nba-finals-mvp-for-the-spurs/

His stats were:

14 PPG, on 65% TS, 4 rebounds, 1 steal, 1.5 blocks

Want to compare to Fred last year...

14 PPG, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal

Crazy right?

Young guy who the next season followed it up and looked very impressive as well.

These guys are good players, but give them too much of a role, and too much money and they become just guys on your team.

But it's not like Fred didn't look less than medicore against Boston in his first real playoff series without Kawhi and a bigger role with all of his weaknesses coming to fruition.

Oh wait.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#57 » by Tha Cynic » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:48 am

Fred can be decent as a third option. Put him anywhere above that and he looks like a selfish player trying to do too much. He is a role player who can pick up the slack from time to time as a scorer. If Fred Van Fleet is your #1 or #2 option, you're not a very good basketball team, unless you have a team stacked with very good players all across the board. He excels when the attention is off him.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#58 » by Steelo Green » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:51 am

Tha Cynic wrote:Fred can be decent as a third option. Put him anywhere above that and he looks like a selfish player trying to do too much. He is a role player who can pick up the slack from time to time as a scorer. If Fred Van Fleet is your #1 or #2 option, you're not a very good basketball team, unless you have a team stacked with very good players all across the board. He excels when the attention is off him.

Stop you hater, you're starving for attention.

/green
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#59 » by Skeezo » Thu Oct 1, 2020 7:19 am

For this ranking exercise, I am making my considerations based on all PGs starting a 3yr contract at 20m per season at whatever their current age is.

1. S.Curry (32)
2. D.Lillard (30)
3. L.Doncic (21)
4. J.Murray (23)
5. J.Morant (21)
6. B.Simmons (24)
7. T.Young (22)
8. D.Mitchell (24)
9. K.Lowry (34)
10. R.Westbrook (31)
11. K.Walker (30)
12. K.Irving (28)
12. D.Fox (22)
14. D.Russell (24)
15. Z.Lavine (25)
16. S.Dinwiddie (27)
17. J.Holiday (30)
18. C.Paul (35)
19. F.VanVleet (26)
20. M.Smart (26)
21. M.Brogdon (27)
22. C.Sexton (21)
23. L.Ball (22)
24. D.Graham (25)
25. G.Dragic (34)
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#60 » by God Squad » Thu Oct 1, 2020 8:37 am

Regardless if you think Steelo is trolling I think it's a valid question to see where Fred ranks in today's NBA PG landscape. I'm not as low as Steelo is in terms of ranking.
No Way are they better

Colin Sexton
Zach Lavine
DLo
Graham
Ball

IMO those are all bad players or overrated players.

Possibly better, but not concrete

Brogdon
Fox
Irving (Headcase)
Smart (Elite Defender)
Dragic (cheap sign offseason)
Dinwiddee
Walker
Westbrook

Better Than Fred

Trae (Elite offense)
Steph
Kyle
Dame
Paul
Simmons ( I guess he's a PG)
Murray (Playoff performance)
Mitchell
Morant
Luka


I'd easily take anyone in the "better than" over Fred all things considered. With that said I'd rather keep continuity and resign him. I'm just not sure it'll be in our best interest to pay Fred 22+ Mill.

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