Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league?

[sca]

LOL your rationale for some of the guys are that they have potential and therefore better options going forward

While some of the other guys on your list are going to be washed up very soon

You're literally moving goalposts. What's your criteria here?

Be honest to yourself.

Trash thread.

[fbalmeida]

You would really take Fred over Donovan Mitchell, Kyrie Irving, Fox, Simmons, Walker, Brogdon?

Have you actually seen what Fred and Mitchell matchups look like? LOL. I take Fred.

Kyrie will make the highlights and get his numbers but will poison your team's chemistry. I'd take Fred.

Fox has potential but at this point in his career, struggles from outside, is a defensive sieve and is far more careless with the ball. I'd take Fred.

Simmons isn't a PG.

Walker is a tremendous shot creator, but Fred is vastly superior defensively. Close, but I'd take Fred on account of his age and contract. This maps onto Fred having been slightly statistically superior to Kemba in the 7game series.

Brogdon is a chronically injured player that struggled mightily with his shot, is inferior defensively, a less efficient shooter, and even more miserable finisher at the rim than Fred. I'd place him decidedly a few rungs below Fred.

In the actual NBA, Fred is a more valuable piece than any of these PGs. i'd imagine if we're talking about NBA2K-watever, which I've never played nor plan to, then I'd probably place Fred below all of them. But real live basketball ain't a video game.

Look, you would take Fred over Trae, this argument is over and it’s comical.

It’s funny how people act because someone disagree that it’s 2Kesque when the irony is Fred on 2K (haven’t played in years, I’m quite old) is probably better then he is in real life.

Everyone on planet earth would take Mitchell over Fred lol. Mitchell was scoring 50 against the conference final Nuggets in an excellent series. Fred shot 10 points below league average efficiency against Boston - or is that a made up stat?

Kyrie averaged 30 points in the NBA finals. Kyrie is a head case but he’s Kyrie. You take that talent in a heartbeat.

Fox isn’t a defensive sieve lol. I don’t know why you just want to believe what you want. Everyone takes him in a heartbeat.

Your lovable BBREF lists Simmons as a Pg so...

Fred’s D is used so heavily lol. He defended Steph in the Box1 where he averaged 30 on 60% TS so forgive me if he’s been overrated a bit

Kemba is better than Fred, get real. He was also the same guy who was useless against Philly and half of Milwaukee and then pathetic against the Celtics just 2 weeks ago but people just look at what the Brooklyn G league series? Can’t look at the success and not the failure only.

Brogdon is better than Fred lol. He’s a better defender with size and can finish and score in the midrange and play make. So much for injuries - he played the same amount as Fred over the last two years

Fred shot 11/14 in the conference finals after shooting 20 percent against Philly. He then shot 10 points below against Boston but his 5’11 great D for his mediocre O where he basically is just good at the long ball is better than all those guys.

Raptors fans at their finest.

If the playoffs started tomorrow, I'd take Fred over Trae. Otherwise, I've already made it clear, repeatedly, that I'd take Trae and 8 other PG's over Fred.

Donovan scored 50 and allowed the other guy to score even more. I'd take the guy who's done nothing but help his teams win throughout his entire experience playing basketball at every level, and who made Mitchell look like a hobbling amateur this season.

Kemba has likely just passed his physical peak while Fred is 26. Despite that their numbers are comparable. If you prefer defence - and I do - you're taking Fred. At Fred's age, Kemba was shooting .385 from the field!

We're going around in circles.

[fbalmeida]

LOL your rationale for some of the guys are that they have potential and therefore better options going forward

While some of the other guys on your list are going to be washed up very soon

You're literally moving goalposts. What's your criteria here?

Be honest to yourself.

Trash thread.

The only criteria on which I'd be taking all or most of those guys over Fred is probably if I really had to win a game of NBA2K.

[Johnny Bball]

Self important? It’s a pretty valid question lol.

I just go against the grain.

It’s a forum, if everyone was just yes men it wouldn’t make it interesting, or are your knees not ashy enough being around Masai?

Lol at you thinking you make it interesting. You don’t go against the grain, you just make real bad hot takes and campaigns.

Really? Now you have yet to actually respond with anything other than pontificating your hubris, when stats, factual historical events are brought up.

Do you think you are above responding with anything? I mean it must be nice to think of yourself that highly without having any valid reason for it.

"Wow your point sucks"

Oh, did you add to the discussion and bring anything to the table?

I didn't say Paul Watson > Kobe, I said Fred is middle of the pack in terms of PGs in the league and to pay him would make him a negative asset.

Now if that's hyperbole and striving for attention, then it would probably be best not to engage in high fivers who think saying anything negative means your opinion or point is invalidated.

After watching the Demar years, I see what I see, and Fred is a solid role player but not someone you build around, and standing around as Kawhi's marksman doesn't make him that.

Here let me bring up a familiar players stats in the NBA finals.

In 2013 a 25 year old Danny Green was a Ray Allen miracle 3 away from a finals MVP.

Here, want some proof:

https://hoopshabit.com/2020/04/24/spurs-remember-danny-green-finals-mvp/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1675564-danny-green-deserves-2013-nba-finals-mvp-award-if-spurs-beat-heat
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2013/06/17/who-is-danny-green-oh-maybe-the-nba-finals-mvp-for-the-spurs/

His stats were:

14 PPG, on 65% TS, 4 rebounds, 1 steal, 1.5 blocks

Want to compare to Fred last year...

14 PPG, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal

Crazy right?

Young guy who the next season followed it up and looked very impressive as well.

These guys are good players, but give them too much of a role, and too much money and they become just guys on your team.

But it's not like Fred didn't look less than medicore against Boston in his first real playoff series without Kawhi and a bigger role with all of his weaknesses coming to fruition.

Oh wait.

Guy... go talk to somebody.

[lebron stopper]

Fred can be decent as a third option. Put him anywhere above that and he looks like a selfish player trying to do too much. He is a role player who can pick up the slack from time to time as a scorer. If Fred Van Fleet is your #1 or #2 option, you're not a very good basketball team, unless you have a team stacked with very good players all across the board. He excels when the attention is off him.

Would you pay Fred VanVleet at least $80 million over the next four years?

[Steelo Green]

Lol at you thinking you make it interesting. You don’t go against the grain, you just make real bad hot takes and campaigns.

Really? Now you have yet to actually respond with anything other than pontificating your hubris, when stats, factual historical events are brought up.

Do you think you are above responding with anything? I mean it must be nice to think of yourself that highly without having any valid reason for it.

"Wow your point sucks"

Oh, did you add to the discussion and bring anything to the table?

I didn't say Paul Watson > Kobe, I said Fred is middle of the pack in terms of PGs in the league and to pay him would make him a negative asset.

Now if that's hyperbole and striving for attention, then it would probably be best not to engage in high fivers who think saying anything negative means your opinion or point is invalidated.

After watching the Demar years, I see what I see, and Fred is a solid role player but not someone you build around, and standing around as Kawhi's marksman doesn't make him that.

Here let me bring up a familiar players stats in the NBA finals.

In 2013 a 25 year old Danny Green was a Ray Allen miracle 3 away from a finals MVP.

Here, want some proof:

https://hoopshabit.com/2020/04/24/spurs-remember-danny-green-finals-mvp/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1675564-danny-green-deserves-2013-nba-finals-mvp-award-if-spurs-beat-heat
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2013/06/17/who-is-danny-green-oh-maybe-the-nba-finals-mvp-for-the-spurs/

His stats were:

14 PPG, on 65% TS, 4 rebounds, 1 steal, 1.5 blocks

Want to compare to Fred last year...

14 PPG, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal

Crazy right?

Young guy who the next season followed it up and looked very impressive as well.

These guys are good players, but give them too much of a role, and too much money and they become just guys on your team.

But it's not like Fred didn't look less than medicore against Boston in his first real playoff series without Kawhi and a bigger role with all of his weaknesses coming to fruition.

Oh wait.

Guy... go talk to somebody.

Oh so still no response

Keep the nothing coming, looks like it’s all you’re good for.

[Steelo Green]

LOL your rationale for some of the guys are that they have potential and therefore better options going forward

While some of the other guys on your list are going to be washed up very soon

You're literally moving goalposts. What's your criteria here?

Be honest to yourself.

Trash thread.

No lol.

Why is reading so hard for people.

I said people either currently better or people you would take moving forward.

I would take Lonzo right now and Dragic right now. Both can be true.

But hey, it’s always trash when it disagrees with your opinion and everyone is a yes man thinking Fred is a part of a great core like former mediocre players before they became hated.

[Steelo Green]

LOL your rationale for some of the guys are that they have potential and therefore better options going forward

While some of the other guys on your list are going to be washed up very soon

You're literally moving goalposts. What's your criteria here?

Be honest to yourself.

Trash thread.

The only criteria on which I'd be taking all or most of those guys over Fred is probably if I really had to win a game of NBA2K.

Again with the 2K?

Do people even talk about basketball anymore?

[Steelo Green]

Have you actually seen what Fred and Mitchell matchups look like? LOL. I take Fred.

Kyrie will make the highlights and get his numbers but will poison your team's chemistry. I'd take Fred.

Fox has potential but at this point in his career, struggles from outside, is a defensive sieve and is far more careless with the ball. I'd take Fred.

Simmons isn't a PG.

Walker is a tremendous shot creator, but Fred is vastly superior defensively. Close, but I'd take Fred on account of his age and contract. This maps onto Fred having been slightly statistically superior to Kemba in the 7game series.

Brogdon is a chronically injured player that struggled mightily with his shot, is inferior defensively, a less efficient shooter, and even more miserable finisher at the rim than Fred. I'd place him decidedly a few rungs below Fred.

In the actual NBA, Fred is a more valuable piece than any of these PGs. i'd imagine if we're talking about NBA2K-watever, which I've never played nor plan to, then I'd probably place Fred below all of them. But real live basketball ain't a video game.

Look, you would take Fred over Trae, this argument is over and it’s comical.

It’s funny how people act because someone disagree that it’s 2Kesque when the irony is Fred on 2K (haven’t played in years, I’m quite old) is probably better then he is in real life.

Everyone on planet earth would take Mitchell over Fred lol. Mitchell was scoring 50 against the conference final Nuggets in an excellent series. Fred shot 10 points below league average efficiency against Boston - or is that a made up stat?

Kyrie averaged 30 points in the NBA finals. Kyrie is a head case but he’s Kyrie. You take that talent in a heartbeat.

Fox isn’t a defensive sieve lol. I don’t know why you just want to believe what you want. Everyone takes him in a heartbeat.

Your lovable BBREF lists Simmons as a Pg so...

Fred’s D is used so heavily lol. He defended Steph in the Box1 where he averaged 30 on 60% TS so forgive me if he’s been overrated a bit

Kemba is better than Fred, get real. He was also the same guy who was useless against Philly and half of Milwaukee and then pathetic against the Celtics just 2 weeks ago but people just look at what the Brooklyn G league series? Can’t look at the success and not the failure only.

Brogdon is better than Fred lol. He’s a better defender with size and can finish and score in the midrange and play make. So much for injuries - he played the same amount as Fred over the last two years

Fred shot 11/14 in the conference finals after shooting 20 percent against Philly. He then shot 10 points below against Boston but his 5’11 great D for his mediocre O where he basically is just good at the long ball is better than all those guys.

Raptors fans at their finest.

If the playoffs started tomorrow, I'd take Fred over Trae. Otherwise, I've already made it clear, repeatedly, that I'd take Trae and 8 other PG's over Fred.

Donovan scored 50 and allowed the other guy to score even more. I'd take the guy who's done nothing but help his teams win throughout his entire experience playing basketball at every level, and who made Mitchell look like a hobbling amateur this season.

Kemba has likely just passed his physical peak while Fred is 26. Despite that their numbers are comparable. If you prefer defence - and I do - you're taking Fred. At Fred's age, Kemba was shooting .385 from the field!

We're going around in circles.

I would still take Trae playoffs tomorrow, but no you actually first said you wouldn’t take Trae and as my list said it’s guys currently better or whom you take over Fred moving forward but sure everyone let’s make things up because it doesn’t fit with our narrative.

Fred allowed Steph to score 30 on 60TS. Are you being serious right now? For all this defensive stopper, 30PPG on elite efficiency just happened. I don’t consider DM a defensive player but your unstoppable Fred was getting trashed.

Made him look like a hobbling amateur in what 2 matchups? I remember when the Raptors swept the season series against the Wizards only to lose 0-4. Don’t use a couple of regular season game’s as a basis for what a player is capable of.

We saw what DM just did. This is comical.

You know growth and skills aren’t linear and equal right?

Player A could be 21, player B could be 35, player A could be a bench piece, player B could be Lebron James.

Fred cannot finish, he’s never been able to score in the mid range, have any sort of in between game, and is a mediocre playmaker. That’s not just going to get better - you have to have a skill to improve it.

At the same age Kemba shot 42.7 % from the field...

21-5-4 as the number one option on a terrible Charlotte team. He was the all-star starter and has been an all-star for 4 straight seasons lol.

You’re just picking and choosing things you decide make it an argument with guys like Mitchell and Walker. Maybe 10% of people would take them over Fred.

Look at the poll. Half think Fred is in the 15-25 range, basically everyone 10-25, with the weight heavily in the 15-25 range.

Fred is a good player but as some people who actually see who he is have said, he’s a guy that’s 3-4 best player on a good team, any more and he is doing too much and your team likely isn’t good.

[VanWest82]

Good starters cost 20M AAV in free agency. Brogdon just got 21M, and he's a pretty good comp: late pick, older, late bloomer, similar statistical profile. Brogdon is a little more versatile on offense. Fred is the better defender.

The reason why we're armchair GMs and Masai and Bobby are real GMs is because they place a big emphasis on the person. Is this a quality individual who will get everything there is to get out of their opportunity?

Fred has no MR game. Fred isn't the best decision maker. Fred is a high quality individual who is a lock to improve on his deficiencies.

As fans we look at players like Lonzo, Wiggins, KAT, Lavine, etc., and marvel at their upside. But we don't consider who they are as people. Fred is a culture guy. You're supposed to pay to keep those guys. If you don't you risk messing with the development of everyone else.

[fbalmeida]

LOL your rationale for some of the guys are that they have potential and therefore better options going forward

While some of the other guys on your list are going to be washed up very soon

You're literally moving goalposts. What's your criteria here?

Be honest to yourself.

Trash thread.

The only criteria on which I'd be taking all or most of those guys over Fred is probably if I really had to win a game of NBA2K.

Again with the 2K?

Do people even talk about basketball anymore?

I'm honestly trying to understand why on earth you'd take a Dinwiddie or a Sexton over Fred. Even if you mistrust Fred's offensive game to the highest possible degree without ignoring his offensive numbers, isn't defence half of the game? Both Spencer isn't stopping anyone and Collin is an outright punchline on the other end.

I can only figure three explanations: 1. You're just being purposely antagonistic. 2. You don't understand or simply undervalue the importance of defence and team chemistry. 3. You play NBA2K and notice how guys that can move the ball up and down the court in a straight line are easier to play with than a slower footed Fred. I honestly wouldn't know. I've never played NBA2K, but that's the dynamic I recall from my video game playing days.

[Lukeem]

Some posters believe Fred is the best defensive PG in the NBA and a top 5-10 PG in the league so worth the money.

I think that is laughable and listed the following players who either you would take currently over Fred, or would have on your roster moving forward:

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Now some are arguable, I will agree, but the arguable ones are probably right around the same level of Fred.

Personally there are at least 15 guys who are surefire better than Fred (let's take away contract and just how good they are as players), and then the rest are young and you would take moving forward over Fred, or the guys right at the same level of Fred.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?

Interesting how you rank players that are like a year younger over fvv because they have more “potential” in your eyes but players that are like 10 years older or more you also put over fvv despite fvv obviously having more potential.


Then you also count fvv as lower value because he might sign for a lot of money but players like Westbrook who will be averaging 45 mill a year for next three years don’t get that counting against them.


By using the reverse of your logic Actual point guards (no debate that they run the offence and can guard point guards) that are clearly better And more valuable assets than FVV While guessing at his contract

Steph curry
Damian lillard


Does that make fvv the third best point guard in the league. If we are judging every other player the way you’re trying to judge fvv he would like 3 rd best in the league.




He is clearly outside the top 5 imo. Somewhere in the top 15 probably. As a 25 year old hopefully (if he signs with raps ) he keeps improving similar to Lowrys improvements over the next five years.

No.... no no.

That's not at all what I did. What I did was list guys better, or guys who you would take for the future moving forward, or I think are in the same category.

I would take Lonzo on my team moving forward over Fred, yes, and if you think the Pelicans would trade Zo for Fred, you're wrong, they would not.

WB is better than Fred yes.

If Fred gets 25 mil, then he is a negative asset, still quite a bit worse than WB. Don't want either, but they are both negatives assets who won't win a damn thing as your lead guard. One still better than the other.

Kyle and Fred need to stop being compared to one another - they care completely different players.

Kyle is an elite playmaker, a true floor general, who can score around the basket, make plays for others, can score in the mid range, has the inbetween game, can back down as a PG, can literally do a bit of everything.

Fred is a mediocre playmaker who can shoot the three, and can do little else scoring wise and can be shut down with size.

You can say “no” as much as you want but then when you re state “ What I did was list guys better, or guys who you would take for the future moving forward, or I think are in the same category.”

That’s the problem. If you did the same thing but listed players that Fred is either better then or that he has more potential going forward then, or left off players that are in the same category as him. Which is the exact same process from the reverse perspective that list is tiny.

Off the top of my head dame, Curry and Jamal murray might be the only 3 players on that list of actual point guards that can run an offence and guard elite lead guards.

We will see what he signs for, if it’s with the raptors and how much he improves. He was a lot better than Lowry at this point in Lowrys career. So the comparison is more than fair. It’s not a given he makes any improvements but considering he’s a hard worker on a team that has elite track record of player development and has Kyle Lowry in the locker room with him. I like his odds of making strides in that direction if he resigns with raps.

[fbalmeida]

Look, you would take Fred over Trae, this argument is over and it’s comical.

It’s funny how people act because someone disagree that it’s 2Kesque when the irony is Fred on 2K (haven’t played in years, I’m quite old) is probably better then he is in real life.

Everyone on planet earth would take Mitchell over Fred lol. Mitchell was scoring 50 against the conference final Nuggets in an excellent series. Fred shot 10 points below league average efficiency against Boston - or is that a made up stat?

Kyrie averaged 30 points in the NBA finals. Kyrie is a head case but he’s Kyrie. You take that talent in a heartbeat.

Fox isn’t a defensive sieve lol. I don’t know why you just want to believe what you want. Everyone takes him in a heartbeat.

Your lovable BBREF lists Simmons as a Pg so...

Fred’s D is used so heavily lol. He defended Steph in the Box1 where he averaged 30 on 60% TS so forgive me if he’s been overrated a bit

Kemba is better than Fred, get real. He was also the same guy who was useless against Philly and half of Milwaukee and then pathetic against the Celtics just 2 weeks ago but people just look at what the Brooklyn G league series? Can’t look at the success and not the failure only.

Brogdon is better than Fred lol. He’s a better defender with size and can finish and score in the midrange and play make. So much for injuries - he played the same amount as Fred over the last two years

Fred shot 11/14 in the conference finals after shooting 20 percent against Philly. He then shot 10 points below against Boston but his 5’11 great D for his mediocre O where he basically is just good at the long ball is better than all those guys.

Raptors fans at their finest.

If the playoffs started tomorrow, I'd take Fred over Trae. Otherwise, I've already made it clear, repeatedly, that I'd take Trae and 8 other PG's over Fred.

Donovan scored 50 and allowed the other guy to score even more. I'd take the guy who's done nothing but help his teams win throughout his entire experience playing basketball at every level, and who made Mitchell look like a hobbling amateur this season.

Kemba has likely just passed his physical peak while Fred is 26. Despite that their numbers are comparable. If you prefer defence - and I do - you're taking Fred. At Fred's age, Kemba was shooting .385 from the field!

We're going around in circles.

I would still take Trae playoffs tomorrow, but no you actually first said you wouldn’t take Trae and as my list said it’s guys currently better or whom you take over Fred moving forward but sure everyone let’s make things up because it doesn’t fit with our narrative.

Fred allowed Steph to score 30 on 60TS. Are you being serious right now? For all this defensive stopper, 30PPG on elite efficiency just happened. I don’t consider DM a defensive player but your unstoppable Fred was getting trashed.

Made him look like a hobbling amateur in what 2 matchups? I remember when the Raptors swept the season series against the Wizards only to lose 0-4. Don’t use a couple of regular season game’s as a basis for what a player is capable of.

We saw what DM just did. This is comical.

You know growth and skills aren’t linear and equal right?

Player A could be 21, player B could be 35, player A could be a bench piece, player B could be Lebron James.

Fred cannot finish, he’s never been able to score in the mid range, have any sort of in between game, and is a mediocre playmaker. That’s not just going to get better - you have to have a skill to improve it.

At the same age Kemba shot 42.7 % from the field...

21-5-4 as the number one option on a terrible Charlotte team. He was the all-star starter and has been an all-star for 4 straight seasons lol.

You’re just picking and choosing things you decide make it an argument with guys like Mitchell and Walker. Maybe 10% of people would take them over Fred.

Look at the poll. Half think Fred is in the 15-25 range, basically everyone 10-25, with the weight heavily in the 15-25 range.

Fred is a good player but as some people who actually see who he is have said, he’s a guy that’s 3-4 best player on a good team, any more and he is doing too much and your team likely isn’t good.

Again, what I wrote in this thread was:

«Going forward and factoring in age and future progression, I'd rank him 9th behind:»

Trae is ON that list and that was always my opinion.

On the previous thread I wrote the same thing via negativa:

«If I'm factoring the intangibles such as age, future progression, and contract value, I'd remove:» and then proceeded to make a list of players I'd rank below Fred. Trae is NOT on it.

viewtopic.php?p=85390434#p85390434

So there.

I'm at peace with the idea I'm in a minority that slightly overrates Fred, because I value defense and chemistry intangibles very highly. I'm confident and perfectly relaxed in my arguments.

[Brinbe]

seriously, like top 25. stop overrating him

[bballsparkin]

Good starters cost 20M AAV in free agency. Brogdon just got 21M, and he's a pretty good comp: late pick, older, late bloomer, similar statistical profile. Brogdon is a little more versatile on offense. Fred is the better defender.

The reason why we're armchair GMs and Masai and Bobby are real GMs is because they place a big emphasis on the person. Is this a quality individual who will get everything there is to get out of their opportunity?

Fred has no MR game. Fred isn't the best decision maker. Fred is a high quality individual who is a lock to improve on his deficiencies.

As fans we look at players like Lonzo, Wiggins, KAT, Lavine, etc., and marvel at their upside. But we don't consider who they are as people. Fred is a culture guy. You're supposed to pay to keep those guys. If you don't you risk messing with the development of everyone else.

What has Lonzo done to deserve his reputation other than having a really ugly shot and his father's big mouth? I wasn't a fan of his coming into the league. I've warmed up to Ball as a player. His defense is really good and he has good vision. He seems to be a quiet guy stuck in his father's shadow imo. I'd take a chance on him. His salary is more than I expected. $11 million next year and a QO of $14 million in 21/22.

True that good starters cost around 20 M AAV. I've admittedly always been a Fred doubter. He's got heart I'll give him that. It would be nice if NN didn't play the small backcourt so much. It doesn't work against teams with length and defense in the playoffs.

[agkagk]

I have a difficult time answering this question because certain factors need to be considered, namely money...

For example,

I'm taking M.Smart at 13m per season versus FVV at 20m+ per season... Similarly, I would take FVV at 15m per season over K.Irving at 34m... However, not sure I would take FVV at 25m per year over Irving at 34m (Actually, probably would not want either at that price).

Beginning to think kyrie Irving is the latest in a long line of overrated stat padders

He is to top point guards what jermaine O’Neil was to defensive player of the year awards.

[VanWest82]

Good starters cost 20M AAV in free agency. Brogdon just got 21M, and he's a pretty good comp: late pick, older, late bloomer, similar statistical profile. Brogdon is a little more versatile on offense. Fred is the better defender.

The reason why we're armchair GMs and Masai and Bobby are real GMs is because they place a big emphasis on the person. Is this a quality individual who will get everything there is to get out of their opportunity?

Fred has no MR game. Fred isn't the best decision maker. Fred is a high quality individual who is a lock to improve on his deficiencies.

As fans we look at players like Lonzo, Wiggins, KAT, Lavine, etc., and marvel at their upside. But we don't consider who they are as people. Fred is a culture guy. You're supposed to pay to keep those guys. If you don't you risk messing with the development of everyone else.

What has Lonzo done to deserve his reputation other than having a really ugly shot and his father's big mouth? I wasn't a fan of his coming into the league. I've warmed up to Ball as a player. His defense is really good and he has good vision. He seems to be a quiet guy stuck in his father's shadow imo. I'd take a chance on him. His salary is more than I expected. $11 million next year and a QO of $14 million in 21/22.

True that good starters cost around 20 M AAV. I've admittedly always been a Fred doubter. He's got heart I'll give him that. It would be nice if NN didn't play the small backcourt so much. It doesn't work against teams with length and defense in the playoffs.

Agreed re the small back court. Even though we won a championship doing it, there is a ceiling without a world class scorer to make up for it. Defensively they've more than proved themselves as a duo.

I don't mean to disparage Lonzo or any of those other guys. I'm sure they're all good dudes who work hard, and they're all very talented. Fred is driven. He wants it more. If you can get a group of guys together who all just want it more, want to work harder, prove themselves again and again, you're going to win.

[bballsparkin]

^^Yeah the small back court served us well. No disagreements there. Kawhi sure helped though. Moving forward it would be nice to have someone with more height in the back court.

I see what you mean about Ball. I think a lot depends on if he can improve his shot.

[Basketball_Jones]

Fred has to play shooting guard because Lowry is here. But he’s clearly not a shooting guard. So this complicates matters. He’s going to be our shooting guard for the bulk of his contract if Lowry is around for the next 3 years.

[fbalmeida]

About this:

Fred’s D is used so heavily lol. He defended Steph in the Box1 where he averaged 30 on 60% TS so forgive me if he’s been overrated a bit

Steph vs Dame, in the WCF:
36.5 ppg. 47% from the field. 43% for 3pt. 66% TS.

Steph vs mainly VanVleet, in the Finals:
30.5 ppg 41% from the field. 34% for 3pt. 60% TS.

Now Dame averaged 22 ppg against the Warriors. That's about 4 or 5 ppg below his normal playoff production. Fred got 14 ppg, playing a completely different role than Dame in his team's shot-taking pecking order.

To be clear, I'd obviously take Dame over Fred. For a crude, but reasonable comparison, -14 is better than -16. But it isn't really hard to imagine what would've happened to Steph's numbers, had he faced the likes of Spencer Dinwiddie or *chuckle* Collin Sexton.