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Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league?

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Where would you rank Fred?

Top 5
3
2%
Top 10
20
14%
Top 15
59
41%
Top 20
37
26%
Top 25
25
17%
 
Total votes: 144

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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#81 » by Clutch0z24 » Fri Oct 2, 2020 10:32 am

I think losing FVV Would hurt us badly next year....Lets be real here...Our team has 0 players that can create their own shot on a regular basis...Lowry can do it at times but other then that we have no real player who can make things happen for themselves....

Thats why we struggled in the playoffs this year...Losing FVV will only further this problem cause FVV was a guy you could give the ball to and he could make tough 3s off the dribble and had a pretty underrated layup package...

I think if we lose Freddy then we better be going out to get someone who can shot create or we will be in big trouble next year...

Olodipo would be a nice grab for that but i guess we will see

Id rank FVV just below all the superstars and better then any of the 2nd tier type
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#82 » by bluerap23 » Fri Oct 2, 2020 12:30 pm

Steelo Green wrote:Some posters believe Fred is the best defensive PG in the NBA and a top 5-10 PG in the league so worth the money.

I think that is laughable and listed the following players who either you would take currently over Fred, or would have on your roster moving forward:

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Now some are arguable, I will agree, but the arguable ones are probably right around the same level of Fred.

Personally there are at least 15 guys who are surefire better than Fred (let's take away contract and just how good they are as players), and then the rest are young and you would take moving forward over Fred, or the guys right at the same level of Fred.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?


I've taken your list (Key accounting for the prediction of next 4 years accounting for age and injury history) and placed Fred at #14.
I have ordered them according to what I believe their value will be in the next 4 years from top to bottom. Removed everyone below Fred. Also removed Mitchell because he almost always plays the 2.

There is also an argument to be made that Fred should be higher than some perennial losing players like Trae and DLo. Right now I'd rather have Fred because I know he can function on a winning team in high leverage situations. He is also a superior defender to Trae and Dlo. But again, I'm trying to project the next 4 years and I think those guys get better.

Steph
Dame
Doncic
Kyrie
Westbrook
Murray
Walker
Morant
Fox
Simmons
Trae
Brogdon
DLo Russel
Fred
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#83 » by brownbobcat » Fri Oct 2, 2020 2:58 pm

bluerap23 wrote:There is also an argument to be made that Fred should be higher than some perennial losing players like Trae and DLo. Right now I'd rather have Fred because I know he can function on a winning team in high leverage situations. He is also a superior defender to Trae and Dlo. But again, I'm trying to project the next 4 years and I think those guys get better.

Trae's been in the league 2 years after being drafted high by a terrible team - how exactly is he a "perennial" loser?
He's better than Fred right now, warts and all.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#84 » by gerrit4 » Fri Oct 2, 2020 3:32 pm

If we re-sign Fred, my guess is that we get somewhere in the neighbourhood of what he did this season (18/6 on 40/40/85 shooting with very good defence) for the life of his contract. Considering he can play off the ball, play really good defence, and spread the floor, I think he's a real asset towards being a winning team. For example, he'd still be really good playing with another PG like Russ, Kyrie etc, so there would be a lot of roster flexibility in terms of what players are available. Back when we had PGs like Jose & TJ, it was pretty limiting because of either their size (TJ), Defence (Jose) or both (also Jose).

My obvious answer is that keeping Fred at the right price is absolutely a smart move. I think he's "good enough" to be a starting PG on a championship team. But the reality is that you need a lot of talent around him to make that work. The other side of it is that we need to sign him at a number where he's still tradable. If we get him on a good deal and then get a little buyer's remorse, we can flip him pretty easily. But if we overpay, we're stuck with the contract.

I'm not sure what the number is, but hopefully we can get him back at a number that keeps him an asset, and keeps our flexibility to make moves in the future.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#85 » by OAKLEY_2 » Fri Oct 2, 2020 3:37 pm

Steelo Green wrote:
Roco14 wrote:He's better than (or at least equal to) the bolded names to me which would put him at #15 on that list. Sure he may not be worth max dollars, but the franchise doesn't have very many other options.

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Consider that Derozan somehow netted us Kawhi Leonard for a year, and then remember that Fred is probably going to be a more valuable trade asset than Derozan in the next 2 years. I mean, pretty much everyone on your list either has max dollars, or is going to be getting max dollars. That's just the way the market is right now.

The bolded are either young assets who are easily more valuable throughout the league than Fred or just better.

How on earth is Fred better moving forward than Fox? Graham? Look what Dragic is doing versus what Fred did. Smart was better than Fred and he gets paid a lot less than Fred will. People need to keep saying Fred > Brogdon, he simply is not.


You are trying to tell us Dragic is better than Fred. Argument flamed right there. Fred haters GTFOutta here.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#86 » by bluerap23 » Fri Oct 2, 2020 5:13 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:There is also an argument to be made that Fred should be higher than some perennial losing players like Trae and DLo. Right now I'd rather have Fred because I know he can function on a winning team in high leverage situations. He is also a superior defender to Trae and Dlo. But again, I'm trying to project the next 4 years and I think those guys get better.

Trae's been in the league 2 years after being drafted high by a terrible team - how exactly is he a "perennial" loser?
He's better than Fred right now, warts and all.



Fair enough. Note I ranked Trae higher than Fred.

No question, he is a vastly superior offensive player (and it is an offensive league). That said - I have seen him ranked as the worst defensive player in the entire league.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#87 » by bballsparkin » Fri Oct 2, 2020 5:34 pm

OAKLEY_2 wrote:You are trying to tell us Dragic is better than Fred. Argument flamed right there. Fred haters GTFOutta here.


It's not like Dragic is a bum. He's pretty good. He carried Croatia before iirc. It's also worth noting we are at a point now when Fred is going to get paid. So it's not just whether Fred is good, but also how much money he will command. I could see a team paying big money to steal him. Dragic could command much less at this stage in his career. We shall see.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#88 » by lstern » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:24 am

Brogdon is ahead of FVV IMO
Smart is ahead of FVV IMO

Two young guys that I'd take over him are Fox and Ja.

I really wonder what our rotation will look like next year, but all of those guys would be upgrades to our roster in my opinion.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#89 » by deeps6x » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:59 am

Fred is clearly not in the top ten. Fred is clearly in the top 15. Personally I have him at 12th best. However cases can be made that he is anywhere from 11th to 15th, depending on the criteria you use.

I say give him $100 million over 5 years and call it a day. I can't see him ever climbing past top 8 or sliding out of the top 15.

I don't know where salaries are going with the new covid reality, but $100 million is a good compromise for the risks that salaries go lower and lower, but also paying him fair value money in year 1, then paying him to maintain that level of play for the following four years. I'd also make it a flat 20M/yr. No rising scale.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#90 » by deeps6x » Mon Oct 5, 2020 3:04 am

lstern wrote:Brogdon is ahead of FVV IMO
Smart is ahead of FVV IMO

Two young guys that I'd take over him are Fox and Ja.

I really wonder what our rotation will look like next year, but all of those guys would be upgrades to our roster in my opinion.


I agree about Smart, Fox and Ja. I think Fred is slightly better than Brogdon.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#91 » by Tor_Raps » Mon Oct 5, 2020 3:05 am

deeps6x wrote:Fred is clearly not in the top ten. Fred is clearly in the top 15. Personally I have him at 12th best. However cases can be made that he is anywhere from 11th to 15th, depending on the criteria you use.

I say give him $100 million over 5 years and call it a day. I can't see him ever climbing past top 8 or sliding out of the top 15.

I don't know where salaries are going with the new covid reality, but $100 million is a good compromise for the risks that salaries go lower and lower, but also paying him fair value money in year 1, then paying him to maintain that level of play for the following four years. I'd also make it a flat 20M/yr. No rising scale.


You cant pay a guy that much money if he isn't even top 10 at his position. You're just asking to screw yourself in the long run.

4 years 70 mill for someone who cannot be your best guard makes sense. He might get paid more which is why id hope for a sign and trade in that case.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#92 » by Steelo Green » Mon Oct 5, 2020 5:13 pm

bluerap23 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Some posters believe Fred is the best defensive PG in the NBA and a top 5-10 PG in the league so worth the money.

I think that is laughable and listed the following players who either you would take currently over Fred, or would have on your roster moving forward:

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Now some are arguable, I will agree, but the arguable ones are probably right around the same level of Fred.

Personally there are at least 15 guys who are surefire better than Fred (let's take away contract and just how good they are as players), and then the rest are young and you would take moving forward over Fred, or the guys right at the same level of Fred.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?


I've taken your list (Key accounting for the prediction of next 4 years accounting for age and injury history) and placed Fred at #14.
I have ordered them according to what I believe their value will be in the next 4 years from top to bottom. Removed everyone below Fred. Also removed Mitchell because he almost always plays the 2.

There is also an argument to be made that Fred should be higher than some perennial losing players like Trae and DLo. Right now I'd rather have Fred because I know he can function on a winning team in high leverage situations. He is also a superior defender to Trae and Dlo. But again, I'm trying to project the next 4 years and I think those guys get better.

Steph
Dame
Doncic
Kyrie
Westbrook
Murray
Walker
Morant
Fox
Simmons
Trae
Brogdon
DLo Russel
Fred

Trae the sophomore who started in the all-star game is a perennial losing player :lol: :lol: :lol:

I actually forgot Devin Booker as well.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#93 » by KrazyP » Mon Oct 5, 2020 6:09 pm

VanVleet is about the #15 PG in the NBA = middle of the pack = average starting level player. This is fantastic considering where he came from.

That said, the average starting level player in the NBA makes about $15mill/yr.

If some idiot team gives him over $20mill/yr...the Raps walk away and hand the reigns over to Powell/TD.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#94 » by Pooh_Jeter » Mon Oct 5, 2020 6:51 pm

PG is flush with talent and for all the improvements FVV has made, he simply doesn't have the physical tools to be truly elite and make up for his biggest weaknesses. With PGs and centres you can literally pick guys up from the scrap heap/late in the draft who can be productive so it makes zero sense to pay an average one an exorbitant salary.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#95 » by Steelo Green » Mon Oct 5, 2020 6:58 pm

KrazyP wrote:VanVleet is about the #15 PG in the NBA = middle of the pack = average starting level player. This is fantastic considering where he came from.

That said, the average starting level player in the NBA makes about $15mill/yr.

If some idiot team gives him over $20mill/yr...the Raps walk away and hand the reigns over to Powell/TD.

This is the problem, because he was undrafted, people are all into Fred because compared to what you get from an undrafted player, he is a hit, but the issue lies in now the salary.

Similar to Siakam, being a hit is irrelevant, you are now compared to your contemporaries and your salary.

Do people say Jimmy Butler wasn't even supposed to be this good, or Kawhi because of their draft selection? Nope. They are judged on their salary.

Fred is a great story, good player, but overpay and the positive then becomes a negative.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#96 » by bluerap23 » Wed Oct 7, 2020 9:35 pm

Steelo Green wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Some posters believe Fred is the best defensive PG in the NBA and a top 5-10 PG in the league so worth the money.

I think that is laughable and listed the following players who either you would take currently over Fred, or would have on your roster moving forward:

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Now some are arguable, I will agree, but the arguable ones are probably right around the same level of Fred.

Personally there are at least 15 guys who are surefire better than Fred (let's take away contract and just how good they are as players), and then the rest are young and you would take moving forward over Fred, or the guys right at the same level of Fred.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?


I've taken your list (Key accounting for the prediction of next 4 years accounting for age and injury history) and placed Fred at #14.
I have ordered them according to what I believe their value will be in the next 4 years from top to bottom. Removed everyone below Fred. Also removed Mitchell because he almost always plays the 2.

There is also an argument to be made that Fred should be higher than some perennial losing players like Trae and DLo. Right now I'd rather have Fred because I know he can function on a winning team in high leverage situations. He is also a superior defender to Trae and Dlo. But again, I'm trying to project the next 4 years and I think those guys get better.

Steph
Dame
Doncic
Kyrie
Westbrook
Murray
Walker
Morant
Fox
Simmons
Trae
Brogdon
DLo Russel
Fred

Trae the sophomore who started in the all-star game is a perennial losing player :lol: :lol: :lol:

I actually forgot Devin Booker as well.


I still ranked Trae above Fred. His record in the NBA is 49-100. They were even worse this year than last year. Truly transcendent players will get their team to win more games early in their career. Many believe that Trae is the worst defender in the entire NBA.

But like I said - I still ranked him higher than Fred.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#97 » by PoundTown » Thu Oct 8, 2020 4:07 am

WaltFrazier wrote:When Fred plays with Kyle he is a good PG because they can share ballhandling/playmaking. Albeit too small a backcourt combo.

But Fred on a team as the only, main PG? He would be above average if that. Running a team is not his strength


Am I the onlY one who thinks the Lowry Freddy duo works uniquely well given their lack of height. Fred is where he needs to be hounding point guards and kyles only weakness on D is staying In front of very quick smaller guards. He is extremely effective guarding size, and can be kind of put on any player whose bread and butter is on the perimeter which nowadays is most players that aren’t playing the 5. They even box out a lot better than most backcourts. I’m good with the duo and they are both tough, smart, gritty 2 way guys with great leadership qualities and both win. Sometimes, I just feel like we need to add to those type of guys.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#98 » by lstern » Thu Oct 8, 2020 5:22 am

God Squad wrote:Here's where Fred ranks for me in today's NBA PG landscape.

No Way are they better
Colin Sexton
Graham
Ball
Zach Lavine
DLo

Similar
Smart (Elite Defender)
Dinwiddee
Fox
Trae (Elite offense)
Dragic (cheap sign offseason)

Similar, possibly better, but not concrete
Brogdon
Irving (Headcase)
Walker
Westbrook
Simmons ( I guess he's a PG)

Better Than FredShae
Holiday
Steph
Kyle
Dame
Paul
Murray (Playoff performance)
Mitchell
Morant
Luka


I'd easily take anyone in the "better than" over Fred all things considered. With that said I'd rather keep continuity and resign him. I'm just not sure it'll be in our best interest not to pay Fred greater than 20 Mill.


Tried adding my own little twists to the above
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#99 » by WaltFrazier » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:30 pm

PoundTown wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:When Fred plays with Kyle he is a good PG because they can share ballhandling/playmaking. Albeit too small a backcourt combo.

But Fred on a team as the only, main PG? He would be above average if that. Running a team is not his strength


Am I the onlY one who thinks the Lowry Freddy duo works uniquely well given their lack of height. Fred is where he needs to be hounding point guards and kyles only weakness on D is staying In front of very quick smaller guards. He is extremely effective guarding size, and can be kind of put on any player whose bread and butter is on the perimeter which nowadays is most players that aren’t playing the 5. They even box out a lot better than most backcourts. I’m good with the duo and they are both tough, smart, gritty 2 way guys with great leadership qualities and both win. Sometimes, I just feel like we need to add to those type of guys.


I wish either: Norm would improve a whole lot, or we could add a better Norm (ie a bigger 2 guard). Then play Fred with that bigger 2, and Kyle come off the bench as he gets older. Not sure how that dynamic would work, if Kyle could gracefully accept that role, but I think it would be great.
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Re: Where would you rank Fred in terms of PG's in the league? 

Post#100 » by fbalmeida » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:48 pm

Kyle has already spoken with an ill-concealed sense of pride about handing over the reigns to Fred. Lowry will be our team's resident éminence grise. Our bigger SG will likely end up being either Davis or Watson. Sad to say it, but Norm's likely a goner this off-season.
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