RealGM

Some posters believe Fred is the best defensive PG in the NBA and a top 5-10 PG in the league so worth the money.

I think that is laughable and listed the following players who either you would take currently over Fred, or would have on your roster moving forward:

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Now some are arguable, I will agree, but the arguable ones are probably right around the same level of Fred.

Personally there are at least 15 guys who are surefire better than Fred (let's take away contract and just how good they are as players), and then the rest are young and you would take moving forward over Fred, or the guys right at the same level of Fred.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?

He's better than (or at least equal to) the bolded names to me which would put him at #15 on that list. Sure he may not be worth max dollars, but the franchise doesn't have very many other options.

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Consider that Derozan somehow netted us Kawhi Leonard for a year, and then remember that Fred is probably going to be a more valuable trade asset than Derozan in the next 2 years. I mean, pretty much everyone on your list either has max dollars, or is going to be getting max dollars. That's just the way the market is right now.

Roco14 wrote:He's better than (or at least equal to) the bolded names to me which would put him at #15 on that list. Sure he may not be worth max dollars, but the franchise doesn't have very many other options.

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Consider that Derozan somehow netted us Kawhi Leonard for a year, and then remember that Fred is probably going to be a more valuable trade asset than Derozan in the next 2 years. I mean, pretty much everyone on your list either has max dollars, or is going to be getting max dollars. That's just the way the market is right now.

The bolded are either young assets who are easily more valuable throughout the league than Fred or just better.

How on earth is Fred better moving forward than Fox? Graham? Look what Dragic is doing versus what Fred did. Smart was better than Fred and he gets paid a lot less than Fred will. People need to keep saying Fred > Brogdon, he simply is not.

Steelo Green wrote:.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?

I mean, is Fred even a PG? Is Doncic a PG? Why didn't you put Lebron in there? Is Smart out there dishing dimes? Will Ben Simmons play PG in the future? I would even ask that of Murray. Certainly Monte Morris saw a lot of time out there with him this playoffs.

For years now there's been a shortage of good off guards. So lets compare Fred to the 60 starting guards in the league. He's at least in the top third. And he's good enough on defence that the Raps had the 2nd best defence in the league last year, along with their second overall seeding.

Plus, it's hard impossible to get good players to come to Toronto voluntarily. We inevitably have to overpay. I'm ok with 20 x 5. We won with Fred this year, including against the soon to be champs.

Ha, you definitely have not seen Graham play. FVV is better than him in every, way, shape and form. And before you say ''im ranking him ahead based on potential'', just know he's only a year younger than FVV.

Your hate for our players is kind of disturbing. You should find a new team to cheer for.
From Siakam to OG to FVV.... Who's next? Find a new slant.

Steelo Green wrote:

Roco14 wrote:He's better than (or at least equal to) the bolded names to me which would put him at #15 on that list. Sure he may not be worth max dollars, but the franchise doesn't have very many other options.

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Consider that Derozan somehow netted us Kawhi Leonard for a year, and then remember that Fred is probably going to be a more valuable trade asset than Derozan in the next 2 years. I mean, pretty much everyone on your list either has max dollars, or is going to be getting max dollars. That's just the way the market is right now.

The bolded are either young assets who are easily more valuable throughout the league than Fred or just better.

How on earth is Fred better moving forward than Fox? Graham? Look what Dragic is doing versus what Fred did. Smart was better than Fred and he gets paid a lot less than Fred will. People need to keep saying Fred > Brogdon, he simply is not.

I don't think it's unfair to say that Fred was better than Fox/Graham this past season or that he'll be better next season. Yes, you can say look at what Dragic is doing, but I can say "look what Fred did in the finals last year as an unfinished product, while Dragic is on the wrong side of 30 and is about to get stomped on in the finals".

All I learned from this past postseason about Fred is that he sucks as a first or second option, but he would be pretty great as a 3rd. 3rd options get paid max money these days, and he's still a work in progress. At the very least a trade asset if you don't want him in the future. Guys who play defence, hit 3's and most importantly -- win, rarely become liabilities unless injuries are a concern.

OP is on quite a roll of misguided negative slanted Raptor threads.

That list is laughable. Fred is a winning player right now. You can win a title with him and everything.

He's a terrific defender. Like really, really good. He struggles vs. length which means he has something in common with 50% of whatever PG list you're putting together.

Top 10 sounds about right but he might be just on the outside of that. He's definitely outside if you're going to include guys like Lebron, Harden, and Luka. He's top 10 little guys for sure.

Roco14 wrote:He's better than (or at least equal to) the bolded names to me which would put him at #15 on that list. Sure he may not be worth max dollars, but the franchise doesn't have very many other options.

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Consider that Derozan somehow netted us Kawhi Leonard for a year, and then remember that Fred is probably going to be a more valuable trade asset than Derozan in the next 2 years. I mean, pretty much everyone on your list either has max dollars, or is going to be getting max dollars. That's just the way the market is right now.

I would switch Brogdon and Lavine. Lavine, for all his offensive repertoire is not a winning basketball player. Brogdon is. I'd put Fred roughly on par with Brogdon.

tecumseh18 wrote:
I mean, is Fred even a PG? Is Doncic a PG? Why didn't you put Lebron in there? Is Smart out there dishing dimes? Will Ben Simmons play PG in the future? I would even ask that of Murray. Certainly Monte Morris saw a lot of time out there with him this playoffs.

For years now there's been a shortage of good off guards. So lets compare Fred to the 60 starting guards in the league. He's at least in the top third. And he's good enough on defence that the Raps had the 2nd best defence in the league last year, along with their second overall seeding.

Plus, it's hard impossible to get good players to come to Toronto voluntarily. We inevitably have to overpay. I'm ok with 20 x 5. We won with Fred this year, including against the soon to be champs.

What about $25 x 4? Where do you draw the line? He'd look nice on more than a few teams.

I'd have him comfortably in the top 20 looking at the list. Part of the problem is the two PG line-up. I'd like to move on from that.

Answered in another thread.

Right now I'd rank him as 7th behind:

Doncic
Steph
Dame
Murray
Paul
Kyle



Going forward and factoring in age and future progression, I'd rank him 9th behind:

Doncic
Steph
Trae
Morant
Murray
Lavine
Dame
and maybe Graham.

Among relevant qualifiers at PG, Fred is:

7th in 3pt%
3rd in steals.
1st in deflections.
2nd in defensive rating.
11th in offensive win shares.
2nd in defensive win shares.
5th in DBPM
8th in BPM
and 8th in VORP (!)

Steelo's deep dive into Fred's point-guard-acy.

There are about 10 PGs that I take without question over him. The others are very closely debated so saying he's top 15 is a safe pick.

Everyone please remember that every role player we have ever had has always looked better because of Kyle Lowry.

Without Lowry, who knows how good fred will be but it’s never worked out for any player that has left the franchise after looking good in one of our lineups.

And L freaking OL at anyone who thinks Fred is the best defensive guard in the league. He’s good. It he’s not even the best defensive guard on his own team.

I'd take 10 guys over him comfortably

But OP is just being ridiculous

Syd-TK3 wrote:I'd take 10 guys over him comfortably

But OP is just being ridiculous

Really?

So you would take Fred over who then?

Kyrie?
Doncic?
Lillard?
Walker?
Simmons?
Paul?
Lowry?
Fox?
Trae?
Steph?
Ja?
I actully forgot Jrue Holiday?
Brogdon?
Murray?
Mitchell?
Graham (I think people need to see how good this soph is)?
WB (forget about contract, he is still better than Fred)?

Which person off that list would you gun to your head really take Fred over?

There are easily 15 guys, but closer to 20 guys, people just don't want to accept it because Fred had 6 good finals games and what 4 good games against the Bucks where he shot an unsustainable 60% from three lol.

Fred is just a guy, he is not special.

People pick Fred over Trae and Walker who just started in the all-star game and Trae who is already a 30-10 guy in his sophomore year lol.

Hell I would take Conley if we got the playoff version of him.

Freddy is very much on par with Kyle at the same age.

And like Klow at the same stage in his career, he is still 4-6 years from his peak.

However, unlike him at this stage, FVV is a proven leader and winner.

tecumseh18 wrote:

Steelo Green wrote:.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?

I mean, is Fred even a PG? Is Doncic a PG? Why didn't you put Lebron in there? Is Smart out there dishing dimes? Will Ben Simmons play PG in the future? I would even ask that of Murray. Certainly Monte Morris saw a lot of time out there with him this playoffs.

For years now there's been a shortage of good off guards. So lets compare Fred to the 60 starting guards in the league. He's at least in the top third. And he's good enough on defence that the Raps had the 2nd best defence in the league last year, along with their second overall seeding.

Plus, it's hard impossible to get good players to come to Toronto voluntarily. We inevitably have to overpay. I'm ok with 20 x 5. We won with Fred this year, including against the soon to be champs.

I think we should look at both guard spots, and may include 6th man. Best if we separate them onto defensive and offensive list, so that we are not comparing apple and orange.

tecumseh18 wrote:

Steelo Green wrote:.

So RGM what say you? Where do you rank Fred? And if he is in that 15-20 range, do you pay him top 50 NBA money for the deepest position in the league?

I mean, is Fred even a PG? Is Doncic a PG? Why didn't you put Lebron in there? Is Smart out there dishing dimes? Will Ben Simmons play PG in the future? I would even ask that of Murray. Certainly Monte Morris saw a lot of time out there with him this playoffs.

For years now there's been a shortage of good off guards. So lets compare Fred to the 60 starting guards in the league. He's at least in the top third. And he's good enough on defence that the Raps had the 2nd best defence in the league last year, along with their second overall seeding.

Plus, it's hard impossible to get good players to come to Toronto voluntarily. We inevitably have to overpay. I'm ok with 20 x 5. We won with Fred this year, including against the soon to be champs.

lol what? Yes those guys are PGs.

I just listed 15-20 just PGs who are better, you think if we added SGs somehow Fred is in the top third? He's middle of the pack at best.

LoveMyRaps wrote:Ha, you definitely have not seen Graham play. FVV is better than him in every, way, shape and form. And before you say ''im ranking him ahead based on potential'', just know he's only a year younger than FVV.

Your hate for our players is kind of disturbing. You should find a new team to cheer for.
From Siakam to OG to FVV.... Who's next? Find a new slant.

Oh really? And what about the rest of the list. We can disagree with regard to Graham, I think he is going to be a great distance shooter who can finish at the rim, who has something Fred is lacking which is he will be a great playmaker in the league.

He is lacking defensively but his offensive potential is much more IMO.

Not really, I am just calling it as I see it.

As I have maintained, Kyle is the engine of this team and when he goes we fall off big time with three mediocre players. Or are you excited about a Fred, Pascal and OG core?

I love how it's always some sort of slant if it is negative.

This is just like the Demar years, happy with mediocrity.

VanWest82 wrote:OP is on quite a roll of misguided negative slanted Raptor threads.

That list is laughable. Fred is a winning player right now. You can win a title with him and everything.

He's a terrific defender. Like really, really good. He struggles vs. length which means he has something in common with 50% of whatever PG list you're putting together.

Top 10 sounds about right but he might be just on the outside of that. He's definitely outside if you're going to include guys like Lebron, Harden, and Luka. He's top 10 little guys for sure.

For the millionth time winning player is overrated. He had Kawhi last year so he could stand on the side and hit open threes.

So much for winning player when he was 10 points below league average efficiency against length in Boston. Or is that not winning enough for you.

Derek Fischer was a winning player too who hit big shots. Don't consider him one of the best in the league just cause.

Name me 10 guys Fred is definitely better than on that list. People are just saying it and really going to just ignore lol. To say Fred is better than 10 guys on that list is pure homerism.

Roco14 wrote:

Steelo Green wrote:

Roco14 wrote:He's better than (or at least equal to) the bolded names to me which would put him at #15 on that list. Sure he may not be worth max dollars, but the franchise doesn't have very many other options.

Steph
Kyle
Trae
Brogdon
Dame
Irving
Paul
Fox
Simmons
Walker
Lavine
Murray
Dragic
Sexton
DLo Russel
Smart
Mitchell
Ball
Graham
Morant
Dinwiddie
Doncic
Westbrook

Consider that Derozan somehow netted us Kawhi Leonard for a year, and then remember that Fred is probably going to be a more valuable trade asset than Derozan in the next 2 years. I mean, pretty much everyone on your list either has max dollars, or is going to be getting max dollars. That's just the way the market is right now.

The bolded are either young assets who are easily more valuable throughout the league than Fred or just better.

How on earth is Fred better moving forward than Fox? Graham? Look what Dragic is doing versus what Fred did. Smart was better than Fred and he gets paid a lot less than Fred will. People need to keep saying Fred > Brogdon, he simply is not.

I don't think it's unfair to say that Fred was better than Fox/Graham this past season or that he'll be better next season. Yes, you can say look at what Dragic is doing, but I can say "look what Fred did in the finals last year as an unfinished product, while Dragic is on the wrong side of 30 and is about to get stomped on in the finals".

All I learned from this past postseason about Fred is that he sucks as a first or second option, but he would be pretty great as a 3rd. 3rd options get paid max money these days, and he's still a work in progress. At the very least a trade asset if you don't want him in the future. Guys who play defence, hit 3's and most importantly -- win, rarely become liabilities unless injuries are a concern.

I agree with you on Fred needing to be the 3rd option. That’s his sweet spot. Only other way worth upping his usage is if he improves as a passer, and specifically in the pick and roll game. One thing I like is that he shows flashes of really being able to probe and keep his dribble alive like Nash used to. Not going to ever have Steve’s vision but can still really get the defense moving and the ball swinging. Also, the guy isn’t quite lowry but does a ton in all the other facets and is really becoming a great secondary leader for us/ culture guy. He had yes yet to stop getting better. I pay up to 25 mil for the guy personally and I think that’s what he will get somewhere.