ImageImageImageImageImage

Canadian 2020 Power Ranking

Moderators: Patman, pbj, Alfred, Duffman100, Morris_Shatford, DG88, Rhettmatic, niQ

Double Bubble
Rookie
Posts: 1,203
And1: 1,011
Joined: Mar 02, 2014
Location: spooning

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#21 » by Double Bubble » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:34 pm

great takes, sad we are unlikely to see the best of the best together anytime soon.
Jef
Rookie
Posts: 1,095
And1: 2,327
Joined: Apr 27, 2016
   

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#22 » by Jef » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:41 pm

I think Dort is right where he should be. Yes it was only two playoff series, but playoff are where winners are born, and Dort's a winner. Who do I want on my team right now? Well, Dort's third, so.... sure, it's recency bias, I get it. But his talents are unique, and the others outside the top two are more commonplace.
Norman Powell, after Game 5 Pacers dunk: "That's Norman Powell!"
Hair Canada
Senior
Posts: 723
And1: 731
Joined: Nov 02, 2017

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#23 » by Hair Canada » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:58 am

aminiaturebuddha wrote:Hair, I'm curious where you would put AJ Lawson. I know he's been wildly inconsistent, but I'm somewhat surprised that you have guys like Mathurin and Primo ahead of him, neither of whom has proved a thing at the NCAA level yet.

Assuming that you might have him in the 40-50 range, what do you think his odds are of becoming a solid professional player somewhere? Even though it seems like he's been around for a while, he's still only 20, and might have time to fill in some of the gaps in his game with further development.


Good question. He actually just slipped out to #51. But as I admitted in my reply to mojo, I allowed myself some freedom in the 40-50 range to put in some unproven guys like Mathurin and Primo. Mainly because I think they have perhaps a better potential to get to the NBA. Notably, this projection might change in a month or two and you might not see them here next year. So I'm okay with anyone who would argue that Lawson should be there instead and is a more proven player.

Now, specifically for AJ himself, I'll write some more before the (hopefully) start of the college season. But I thought he really stagnated in his second year. He's a good defender (especially team defense), with good instincts and is probably also a better shooter than what he showed last year. But his body remains lanky, he lacks the strength to finish with contact, and that hasn't changed too much over the last couple of years (and might not in the future; I think it might just be his body type). Also, the decision making has been pretty disappointing, with more turnovers than assists. For what it's worth, I don't quite like his decision to go back to SC. The slow style of play there doesn't quite complement his strengths. But I'm just no longer convinced he's a future NBA player, though he'll certainly have a chance to prove me wrong next year, as the Gamecocks projected top player.
Hair Canada
Senior
Posts: 723
And1: 731
Joined: Nov 02, 2017

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#24 » by Hair Canada » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:25 am

mojo13 wrote:
bozothepope wrote:Any thoughts on Matthew-Alexander Moncrieffe? I'm excited to see what he can do at Oklahoma St with Cade Cunningham.



Hair - when the time is right we hope you do another prospect ranking of all the guys in the NCAA or entering and where they are on the ladder for NBA/pro prospects. Seems like another wave is entering and I’m not sure who is who on the pecking order.

Is Caleb Houston the top prospect?
I did see him in someone’s 2021 lottery mocks.


Yes, I have intentions to write about our college guys before the start of the NCAA season (if it actually starts) next month. I quite like the 2020 class, more than I did the 2019 one, though there are certainly no sure things there.

As for Houstan (with an A for some reason), I like him quite a lot and written about him favorably in the past (I think since he was 14yo). But can't see how he'll be available for the 2021 draft. He was originally a 2022 class (born in 2003), before reclassifying to 2021 earlier this year. Next year he'll be a high school senior at Montverde. So unless the NBA decides to change its eligibility criteria already next year (I don't think it's in the cards), he'll be available only in 2022.

But since you've asked, if it's of interest, maybe I'll do a bit of a review of some interesting Canadian high school names sometime in the near future. I believe it's been more than three years since I've last done that.
Hair Canada
Senior
Posts: 723
And1: 731
Joined: Nov 02, 2017

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#25 » by Hair Canada » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:11 pm

bozothepope wrote:Any thoughts on Matthew-Alexander Moncrieffe? I'm excited to see what he can do at Oklahoma St with Cade Cunningham.


I'll probably write more about Moncrieffe before the beginning of the college season (if that still happens). And I agree that OK State would definitely be an interesting team to watch. But I'm not sure what role Moncrieffe would have in it. He's a player with really unique physical tools: very long and a fantastic athlete, with big steps and hang time. Certainly has very good defensive potential. The offense, however, is very far from being there and I'm not sure it ever will get to where it needs to be in order for him to be a serviceable player at the next level. He's pretty awesome in the open court and can wow you with exquisite athletic moves and finishes. But in the half-court offense, he really lacks creativity in his drives and his handle is quite loose. And most importantly, his outside shooting(from just about any range) is pretty terrible, including from the line, which does not project well for the future. If I had to bet on it, he will not be joining his cousins in the NBA any time soon (and I think there's a good chance that not at all). Naturally, I'd be happy to be proven wrong about this prediction.
User avatar
WaltFrazier
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,060
And1: 2,396
Joined: Jan 21, 2006
Location: Ontario
       

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#26 » by WaltFrazier » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:07 pm

NBA players likely can't play so very depressing. I fear we are never going to see this golden generation of NBA Canadians play together
mojo13
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,910
And1: 1,359
Joined: Mar 25, 2014
   

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#27 » by mojo13 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:16 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:NBA players likely can't play so very depressing. I fear we are never going to see this golden generation of NBA Canadians play together



If it makes you feel any better - it is not a "Golden Generation". This is an ongoing structural change.
mtr15
Pro Prospect
Posts: 893
And1: 26
Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Location: Toronto

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#28 » by mtr15 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:03 pm

Hair Canada wrote:
mojo13 wrote:
bozothepope wrote:Any thoughts on Matthew-Alexander Moncrieffe? I'm excited to see what he can do at Oklahoma St with Cade Cunningham.



Hair - when the time is right we hope you do another prospect ranking of all the guys in the NCAA or entering and where they are on the ladder for NBA/pro prospects. Seems like another wave is entering and I’m not sure who is who on the pecking order.

Is Caleb Houston the top prospect?
I did see him in someone’s 2021 lottery mocks.


Yes, I have intentions to write about our college guys before the start of the NCAA season (if it actually starts) next month. I quite like the 2020 class, more than I did the 2019 one, though there are certainly no sure things there.

As for Houstan (with an A for some reason), I like him quite a lot and written about him favorably in the past (I think since he was 14yo). But can't see how he'll be available for the 2021 draft. He was originally a 2022 class (born in 2003), before reclassifying to 2021 earlier this year. Next year he'll be a high school senior at Montverde. So unless the NBA decides to change its eligibility criteria already next year (I don't think it's in the cards), he'll be available only in 2022.

But since you've asked, if it's of interest, maybe I'll do a bit of a review of some interesting Canadian high school names sometime in the near future. I believe it's been more than three years since I've last done that.


I'll be super interested to get your thoughts on Elijah FIsher. It's unfortunate that COVID has resulted in the high school prep (OSBA) season being delayed in Ontario. Crestwood and other major prep teams(eg. Orangeville Prep) cannot go to the States to play teams down there. Crestwood coach Ro Russell mentioned on a podcast back in the summer that his program was scheduled to play Emoni Bates and his new prep team in Michigan and they were scheduled to play at Hoophall in Springfield, Mass in January.

Coach Ro also mentioned that Fisher is going to be the main ball handler (point guard) for Crestwood to take the place of Trevon Thomas, who is now at Vanderbilt. Fisher apparently is working hard on improving his shot and playmaking. Also Zaiden Cross, from the class of 2022, has transferred to Crestwood from Royal Crown.
VanWest82
RealGM
Posts: 10,364
And1: 10,821
Joined: Dec 05, 2008

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#29 » by VanWest82 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:14 pm

Assuming this has nothing to do with contract I'd still put Wiggins 2nd. SGA is hot on his heels and might pass him this year with a break out season but he's still a little raw at this stage. We've gone a little overboard with Wiggins imo. He got better last year and we know he's a good player when the effort is there which it looks like it's more consistent now.
Hair Canada
Senior
Posts: 723
And1: 731
Joined: Nov 02, 2017

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#30 » by Hair Canada » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:36 am

VanWest82 wrote:Assuming this has nothing to do with contract I'd still put Wiggins 2nd. SGA is hot on his heels and might pass him this year with a break out season but he's still a little raw at this stage. We've gone a little overboard with Wiggins imo. He got better last year and we know he's a good player when the effort is there which it looks like it's more consistent now.


You are entitled to your opinion of course. But while I certainly get the take of Wiggins over Brooks, I can't see how one could argue that Wiggins is right now a better NBA that SGA. Wiggins scored slightly more, but on higher usage and significantly less efficiently from all ranges. SGA is already a better rebounder and this year Andrew made a jump in passing (which I noted), but it's the first time in his career that he's had more than 2.5 assists per game. I think it's clear that Shai's potential in this category is significantly higher (and I would argue also current ability if he wasn't playing so many minutes next to Paul and Schroder). We can also look at the other side of the court, where Shai hasn't been amazing but Wiggins has been bad (sometimes really bad) throughout his career. By the way, the advanced stats (offensive and defensive) all show this as well, even if you just take Wiggins' last year, which was significantly better.

but most importantly, look at what their teams have been doing. Shai has been playing for winning teams and has already demonstrated he can be a valuable part of such teams. In his two years in the league, he got to the playoff twice, both of them with teams that were considered by most analysts to be lottery teams prior to the start of the season (and they also gave a good fight in the playoffs once they got there). Wiggins, on the other hand, has been playing last year for the two worst teams in the West (maybe in the league) and was not able to improve them. And it's not a one-time fluke either. In six years now in the league (Many of them alongside stars like Towns, Lavine, and even Butler), he's been to the playoffs only once (hardly) and even that was entirely due to Jimmy.

I don't think there's a single GM in this league who would take Wiggins over SGA. And no, it's not (at least not only) because of the contract. I did say that I'd be happy to see him next year playing efficient basketball and showing that he can be a valuable part of a winning team (I also said that I think GS might be a perfect fit for the kind of player he is). If he does, I'll certainly consider bumping him up. But I'll need to see it first.
Matty
General Manager
Posts: 9,231
And1: 18,283
Joined: Dec 04, 2013
Location: Home of The Golden Asterisk Champions
 

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#31 » by Matty » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:45 pm

Can't take this ranking seriously when you have a newcomer ahead of a perennial 20 point scorer.

The disrespect on Wiggins is incredible sometimes...
mojo13
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,910
And1: 1,359
Joined: Mar 25, 2014
   

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#32 » by mojo13 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:46 pm

Matty wrote:Can't take this ranking seriously when you have a newcomer ahead of a perennial 20 point scorer.

The disrespect on Wiggins is incredible sometimes...



When you read his ranking qualification it makes sense (Team Canada needs for a FIBA tournament) - but I do think Wiggins is under ranked here as well. Hair's argument for SGA over Wiggins makes total sense - but I'm not yet on board with either Brooks (who I have real problems with) or Dort (who I am excited about) over Wiggins.

You are welcome to lay down your Top 50 if you are so bold.
Hair Canada
Senior
Posts: 723
And1: 731
Joined: Nov 02, 2017

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#33 » by Hair Canada » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:28 pm

Matty wrote:Can't take this ranking seriously when you have a newcomer ahead of a perennial 20 point scorer.

The disrespect on Wiggins is incredible sometimes...


I actually have no disrespect or grudge for Wiggins or any Canadian player for that matter. I'd be thrilled to see him turn his career around next year and gladly root for him (and also give him his due "respect").

As for your take, if by "newcomer" you mean Shai, then I answered this above. If you mean Dort, I think it's a very legit take. But putting it on "20 points a game" is quite 1980' of you. Eventually, players are measured (or should be measured in my opinion) by their contribution to winning games and winning teams. And these go far beyond just scoring, especially scoring inefficiently for bad teams and doing little else. If that was the main criteria for ranking, then Barrett would already be a top-5 Canadian...
Matty
General Manager
Posts: 9,231
And1: 18,283
Joined: Dec 04, 2013
Location: Home of The Golden Asterisk Champions
 

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#34 » by Matty » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:57 pm

Hair Canada wrote:
Matty wrote:Can't take this ranking seriously when you have a newcomer ahead of a perennial 20 point scorer.

The disrespect on Wiggins is incredible sometimes...


I actually have no disrespect or grudge for Wiggins or any Canadian player for that matter. I'd be thrilled to see him turn his career around next year and gladly root for him (and also give him his due "respect").

As for your take, if by "newcomer" you mean Shai, then I answered this above. If you mean Dort, I think it's a very legit take. But putting it on "20 points a game" is quite 1980' of you. Eventually, players are measured (or should be measured in my opinion) by their contribution to winning games and winning teams. And these go far beyond just scoring, especially scoring inefficiently for bad teams and doing little else. If that was the main criteria for ranking, then Barrett would already be a top-5 Canadian...


I was talking about ranking him ahead of Dort. Frankly you can only say Jamaal and Shai are ahead of him.

If you are talking about their relative importance to the national squad I get it, but the title is implying whose the best producing Canadian talent in the NBA.

Andrew has been leading Canadians in scoring every year since he joined the NBA.

And you're acting like scoring 20 points a game is nothing in the NBA. There are more teams in the league than players who averaged over 20.0 PTs/game this season. Lets not act like that's an average feat to accomplish. You can discredit the rest of his attributes but don't say he's taken advantage of scoring on bad teams as if that's a fault of his own.

He's not an All-Star but he's by far better than Olynk and the other role players you ranked ahead of him.
Hair Canada
Senior
Posts: 723
And1: 731
Joined: Nov 02, 2017

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#35 » by Hair Canada » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:25 pm

Yes, I am talking about the national squad. You can also see that my top 5 are roughly by position. Since it's MY power ranking, I chose to emphasize this criterion, though it's not the only one. But it speaks to a larger principle: for me, power rankings don't happen in a vacuum. You can't just take someone's stats (and certainly not one stats) and go by it. The ability to play alongside others and compelement them, and a players contribution to winning teams are high on my list. And yes, I'm much less impressed by putting up big scoring numbers in low efficiency on weak teams (Wiggins and Barrett). I'm not saying it's easy to do that (you are right that there's only a handful of players in the league who can score this much). Just that this does not convince me that this player is valuable for winning games. So when you are saying that Wiggins (or Barrett) is a "much better player" than Olynyk/Clarke/Dort, my question would be "better at what?" At putting points on the board? sure. At palying one on one basketball? most likely. At being a useful part of a winning team? Maybe, but I'll have to see this happening. If he can score 15 a game this year with good efficiency, play decent defense, share the ball, and most importantly do it on a winning GS team, I'd gladly bump him to #3 on my list.
Ell Curry
Starter
Posts: 2,386
And1: 450
Joined: Oct 27, 2001
Location: Newfoundland

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#36 » by Ell Curry » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:19 pm

Solid list.

In terms of team construction, I think it's all about who fits with the Murray-SGA backcourt, so to me if I were coaching I'd start with a day 1 40 minute rotation probably like this:

Olynyk 22 Thompson 18
Clarke 25 Boucher 15
Dort 20 Wiggins/Barrett 20
SGA 20 Brooks 20
Murray 30 SGA 10

and then the final 2 spots would be a post defender at the 5 like Birch and another perimeter player, maybe Joseph for veteran leadership until Nickeil Alexander-Walker or the loser of the Wiggins/Barrett battle overtakes them for the final spot.

Basically, we're the nation of Portland with McCollum and Lillard and it's about building a frontcourt that supports them, with Clarke the lone real 3 and D player and therefor a starter and after that a bit of a free for all and Nurse probably having to juggle players based on matchups (Dort starts against Slovenia, Greece or the United States to guard a star wing but maybe a better offensive player starts against teams without a killer wing).
Where's the D?
User avatar
LoveMyRaps
RealGM
Posts: 11,882
And1: 21,782
Joined: Jun 10, 2013
       

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#37 » by LoveMyRaps » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:27 pm

Hair Canada wrote:One guy I didn't rank here (he was a next-10 for me) is Addison Patterson. Arguably, the most talented player in the somewhat underwhelming class of 2019. Didn't have a great year at Oregon and now he decided to transfer. Not sure yet where, but this means we won't get to see him next year in college. Might not be a bad decision though. Oregon wasn't a very good fit for him.


Was wondering about him in the draft thread. Came here knowing you'd be the man to ask. Any update on where he'll play next season? Is he draft eligible ?
In Masai We Trust :meditate:
Image
TheFutureMM
Senior
Posts: 652
And1: 462
Joined: Apr 13, 2015
 

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#38 » by TheFutureMM » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:44 pm

Love the annual Canadian Basketball discussion. My dream roster line-up at the moment is as follows:

Olynyk / Powell / Birch
Thompson / Clarke
Wiggins / Brooks
SGA / (Barrett or Dort)
Murray / Joseph / Pangos

Canada's biggest strength at the moment has to be the versatility of our backcourt. Being able to run line-ups like Murray, SGA, and Wiggins or Joseph, Murray, and SGA would be a blessing.
Hair Canada
Senior
Posts: 723
And1: 731
Joined: Nov 02, 2017

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#39 » by Hair Canada » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:21 pm

LoveMyRaps wrote:
Hair Canada wrote:One guy I didn't rank here (he was a next-10 for me) is Addison Patterson. Arguably, the most talented player in the somewhat underwhelming class of 2019. Didn't have a great year at Oregon and now he decided to transfer. Not sure yet where, but this means we won't get to see him next year in college. Might not be a bad decision though. Oregon wasn't a very good fit for him.


Was wondering about him in the draft thread. Came here knowing you'd be the man to ask. Any update on where he'll play next season? Is he draft eligible ?


He didn't put his name for the draft this year (would be eligible but didn't declare). Will go back to college next year. Didn't pick a team yet. I suspect it's not going to be a Duke/Kentucky kind of team. I think he'll look for a place where he'll get big minutes and the opportunity to shine and put up numbers, maybe even playing the PG position.
mojo13
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,910
And1: 1,359
Joined: Mar 25, 2014
   

Re: Canadian 2020 Power Ranking 

Post#40 » by mojo13 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:22 pm

As a reminder we have two SMNT games coming up in just over a month.
The FIBA Americup Qualification process resumes with Canada taking on Cuba and USVI in a "bubble" at the Hard Rock Hotel in Punta Cana, DR on Nov 29 and 30.

It will be extra interesting to see who show ups to play (and coach). These are low caliber opponents, but it could be a good opportunity to build team chemistry towards the Victoria Qualifiers and/or gain FIBA experience for younger players. The NBA season is in its summer so we could even see NBA participation. Maybe allot if there are any Covid related logistical issue to get Euro/Asia based players to the DR and back to their clubs.

I did notice Sabonis and Val are in the player pool for Lithuania (announced yesterday) so there is reason to believe we get some NBA guys - or at least a couple lower level guys like Dort, Brissett, Kabengele, NAW, Barrett, Shayok, Mulder who may want to get their feet wet with FIBA play, learn the system and gain some points in the eyes of management in case we make the Olympics.

Personally I think they should be focused on the Victoria Qualifier, continue to build chemistry with that core from the WC (Pangos, Wiltjer, Ejim, Morgan, Klassen, the Scrubbs) who will likely be the core for the Qualifier and maybe bring in what I'd see as best possible non-NBA re-enforcements like Dylan Ennis, Tyler Ennis, Andrew Nicholson and Dyshawn Pierre.

Return to Toronto Raptors