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Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract

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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#81 » by Steelo Green » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:00 pm

kalel123 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:
Um Thomas didn’t walk away he was traded away for Kyrie Irving. Good basketball executives don’t let assets walk for nothing.

The comparison to IT is ridiculous for other reasons as well.

Who is talking about that, he wanted to be extended and they said no, and rightfully so.

IT was an MVP candidate.

Plenty of executives have let assets walk for nothing that aren’t worth it.

Fred at 20+ mil means you can trade him for negative assets, similar when we traded Demarre.

The cap going down and this deal would be horrible.


Dude, you are talking about that. You are the one who brought up Thomas when he wasn't even a viable example due to obvious reasons. The biggest one being Ainge didn't let him walk away for nothing; never mind the fact that Isiah Thomas was a damaged goods coming off career-altering injury. And you can't even admit you are wrong when you get fact checked. And you wonder why you are considered to be hatin' troll.

The least you can do when talking about "plenty" of execs letting assets walk away for nothing is to prove your point with some actual examples especially when your one shining example was proven to be wrong.

Huh?

What fact did I get wrong?

People literally make things up.

I said the Celtics did not sign IT even though many would have given his MVP type season. Damaged goods was known after the fact, he was in the end traded for Kyrie. Everyone was on Ainge for not signing a guy that good.

I don't like signing smaller PGs who have big deficiencies in their offensive game and can be figured out pretty easily and go 10 points below league average efficiency against better defenses.

With regard to assets: Al Horford, Gordon Hayward, Ben Wallace (Chicago signing), Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudamire, Dwight Howard (Houston), Hedo Turkoglu, Evan Turner, Chandler Parsons, Joakim Noah, Mozgov, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Penny Hardaway, Rashard Lewis, Eddie Curry

There's more, but I have good and bad players, some in their prime, some just past, some very good players, some mediocre players. GMs have let players go and been fine.

With regard to a guy like Hayward, he was never worth superstar money and the Jazz in the end are better for it, injury or not.

Letting assets go is not the end of the world. Almost none of the teams that let those guys go regretted it.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#82 » by AkelaLoneWolf » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:03 pm

pr0gr4m wrote:
AkelaLoneWolf wrote:
tecumseh18 wrote:
Fred was great this regular season when Kyle was out, and in the bubble win against the Heat. Raptors won some big games with him on the ball. His bad game was the last half the Clippers game at Staples, but that was on a B2B. Some of you seem to forget that we finished second overall despite significant injuries. Masai is not letting young guys walk for nothing.

Kyle's aging, so signing Fred for a Brogdon deal is a no brainer. There will be an 8% dip in 2021 to preserve the max contract cap space. Over the four years, it will be something like 21, 19, 21, 23 mill per year.

do we know what the cap number will be. I think FA starts tonight, correct?
also no one's advocating for Fred to walk; just to be signed to a reasonable contract esp in these lean times.

The only reason FVV is good is because he plays next to Lowry. Lowry helped CoJo and DeMar get a big contracts as well.

obviously he looks better when playing beside good players. no one's saying he's an all star. he's a very good role player with the potential to become a lower tier star.
i can live with a 21,17,19,21 contract.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#83 » by AkelaLoneWolf » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:09 pm

dagger wrote:
ballislife89 wrote:Yikes, a little rich for me. But granted the raptors record attracting free agents, this is probably the best we can get lol.



Right now, Masai would want to be able to present the Raptors as contenders to the summer/2021 freewheeled agents. If they lose too much talent this offseason, they might have a mountain of cap space, but it might be hard to get an upper level FA with lots of options to be part of mid-level team with an aging PG to boot. Also, Fred at that price is probably trade-able for value if things go south or if someone else is a better PG option through trade or free agency.

There's some value in showing you can retain important FA. Having said that, if an all star or superstar comes here, it will be because of Lowry, not FVV or Siakam. Lowry is also a free agent next year.
The one interesting part of this whole thing is framing FVV as a Kyle replacement though. Masai/Nurse have been trying to bring in a tall PG with good defensive skills for the longest time i.e. Delon/McCaw. I wonder if that plays a calculation in the type of contract they offer FVV.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#84 » by kalel123 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:58 pm

Steelo Green wrote:
kalel123 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Who is talking about that, he wanted to be extended and they said no, and rightfully so.

IT was an MVP candidate.

Plenty of executives have let assets walk for nothing that aren’t worth it.

Fred at 20+ mil means you can trade him for negative assets, similar when we traded Demarre.

The cap going down and this deal would be horrible.


Dude, you are talking about that. You are the one who brought up Thomas when he wasn't even a viable example due to obvious reasons. The biggest one being Ainge didn't let him walk away for nothing; never mind the fact that Isiah Thomas was a damaged goods coming off career-altering injury. And you can't even admit you are wrong when you get fact checked. And you wonder why you are considered to be hatin' troll.

The least you can do when talking about "plenty" of execs letting assets walk away for nothing is to prove your point with some actual examples especially when your one shining example was proven to be wrong.

Huh?

What fact did I get wrong?

People literally make things up.

I said the Celtics did not sign IT even though many would have given his MVP type season. Damaged goods was known after the fact, he was in the end traded for Kyrie. Everyone was on Ainge for not signing a guy that good.

I don't like signing smaller PGs who have big deficiencies in their offensive game and can be figured out pretty easily and go 10 points below league average efficiency against better defenses.

With regard to assets: Al Horford, Gordon Hayward, Ben Wallace (Chicago signing), Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudamire, Dwight Howard (Houston), Hedo Turkoglu, Evan Turner, Chandler Parsons, Joakim Noah, Mozgov, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Penny Hardaway, Rashard Lewis, Eddie Curry

There's more, but I have good and bad players, some in their prime, some just past, some very good players, some mediocre players. GMs have let players go and been fine.

With regard to a guy like Hayward, he was never worth superstar money and the Jazz in the end are better for it, injury or not.

Letting assets go is not the end of the world. Almost none of the teams that let those guys go regretted it.


Make things up? Dude, this is why you get ignored and laughed at because you are often guilty of what you accuse others of.

Trading a player for another equivalent/better player is not letting an asset walk away for nothing. That is a fact. WTF is wrong with you? Wasn't even a sign-and-trade. Thomas wasn't even a FA yet at the time. And the main reason for trade is because who was viewed as potential franchise players at the time became available. It's time to admit you were just speaking outta your ass and move on.

And now you are just spitting bunch of s#!t out there hoping if you throw enough of it, something will stick. Of course, you don't realize most of your examples don't even apply to our situation here.

Gordon Hayward left despite being offered the max from Jazz for example. Jazz had no choice in the matter. That's equivalent to saying we let Bosh walk.

Guys like Al Horford was vastly overpaid, way more than his market value, to leave his former team. Doubt anybody else came even remotely close to what Sixers ended up giving him. Ditto on Turkoglu. That's mostly the reason GM's "let" players walk for nothing because there's a team out there willing to offer way more than anyone else would. Many here including myself are already on the record that we'd rather Van Vleet walk if that kind of situation presented itself. i.e. if a team like Knicks were offering him way more than anybody else was willing to offer. It's just that Brogdon-type money is still within reason in today's market and therefore he'd still definitely be tradeable.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#85 » by SFour » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:00 pm

ballislife89 wrote:Yikes, a little rich for me. But granted the raptors record attracting free agents, this is probably the best we can get lol.


Raptors will always have to overpay for their big name free agents, even guys like Lowry, Demar, and Siakam who aren't ignorant about Toronto/Canada....the sooner Raptors fans realize that and accept it the better.

I remember every time Lowry got a big contract there was overpaid talk....not alot of people factor in the added cost of keeping a big name player in a Canadian city.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#86 » by tecumseh18 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:08 pm

pr0gr4m wrote:
AkelaLoneWolf wrote:
tecumseh18 wrote:
Fred was great this regular season when Kyle was out, and in the bubble win against the Heat. Raptors won some big games with him on the ball. His bad game was the last half the Clippers game at Staples, but that was on a B2B. Some of you seem to forget that we finished second overall despite significant injuries. Masai is not letting young guys walk for nothing.

Kyle's aging, so signing Fred for a Brogdon deal is a no brainer. There will be an 8% dip in 2021 to preserve the max contract cap space. Over the four years, it will be something like 21, 19, 21, 23 mill per year.

do we know what the cap number will be. I think FA starts tonight, correct?
also no one's advocating for Fred to walk; just to be signed to a reasonable contract esp in these lean times.

The only reason FVV is good is because he plays next to Lowry. Lowry helped CoJo and DeMar get a big contracts as well.


100% wrong. I just pointed out many big wins (Lakers, Sixers) this season that Fred was at the controls for with Kyle out. Masai gave Cory Jo his contract as an FA, before he ever played with Kyle. And Cory didn't even play with Kyle- he was a pure backup. DeMar just had his best (most efficient) season as pro last season - without Lowry.

Why would you make a post that was so demonstrably false in every respect?
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#87 » by tecumseh18 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:17 pm

Basketball_Jones wrote:Fred has always played pretty well when Kyle was out. Certainly we could use another creator (Siakam ain’t it) come playoff time though.


This is why I would be okay with trading Norm this offseason. He's just never shown a desire to set others up, and in a two-guard you need at least four assists per game. This might be the perfect sell high opportunity. And if Marc is gone or retired, Raps desperately need another passing big. But I'm more optimistic than you about Pascal's potential as a playmaker.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#88 » by Steelo Green » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:17 pm

kalel123 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
kalel123 wrote:
Dude, you are talking about that. You are the one who brought up Thomas when he wasn't even a viable example due to obvious reasons. The biggest one being Ainge didn't let him walk away for nothing; never mind the fact that Isiah Thomas was a damaged goods coming off career-altering injury. And you can't even admit you are wrong when you get fact checked. And you wonder why you are considered to be hatin' troll.

The least you can do when talking about "plenty" of execs letting assets walk away for nothing is to prove your point with some actual examples especially when your one shining example was proven to be wrong.

Huh?

What fact did I get wrong?

People literally make things up.

I said the Celtics did not sign IT even though many would have given his MVP type season. Damaged goods was known after the fact, he was in the end traded for Kyrie. Everyone was on Ainge for not signing a guy that good.

I don't like signing smaller PGs who have big deficiencies in their offensive game and can be figured out pretty easily and go 10 points below league average efficiency against better defenses.

With regard to assets: Al Horford, Gordon Hayward, Ben Wallace (Chicago signing), Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudamire, Dwight Howard (Houston), Hedo Turkoglu, Evan Turner, Chandler Parsons, Joakim Noah, Mozgov, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Penny Hardaway, Rashard Lewis, Eddie Curry

There's more, but I have good and bad players, some in their prime, some just past, some very good players, some mediocre players. GMs have let players go and been fine.

With regard to a guy like Hayward, he was never worth superstar money and the Jazz in the end are better for it, injury or not.

Letting assets go is not the end of the world. Almost none of the teams that let those guys go regretted it.


Make things up? Dude, this is why you get ignored and laughed at because you are often guilty of what you accuse others of.

Trading a player for another equivalent/better player is not letting an asset walk away for nothing. That is a fact. WTF is wrong with you? Wasn't even a sign-and-trade. Thomas wasn't even a FA yet at the time. And the main reason for trade is because who was viewed as potential franchise players at the time became available. It's time to admit you were just speaking outta your ass and move on.

And now you are just spitting bunch of s#!t out there hoping if you throw enough of it, something will stick. Of course, you don't realize most of your examples don't even apply to our situation here.

Gordon Hayward left despite being offered the max from Jazz for example. Jazz had no choice in the matter. That's equivalent to saying we let Bosh walk.

Guys like Al Horford was vastly overpaid, way more than his market value, to leave his former team. Doubt anybody else came even remotely close to what Sixers ended up giving him. Ditto on Turkoglu. That's mostly the reason GM's "let" players walk for nothing because there's a team out there willing to offer way more than anyone else would. Many here including myself are already on the record that we'd rather Van Vleet walk if that kind of situation presented itself. i.e. if a team like Knicks were offering him way more than anybody else was willing to offer. It's just that Brogdon-type money is still within reason in today's market and therefore he'd still definitely be tradeable.

Gotcha so you have nothing and just keep repeating that you have nothing and think that validates you.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2712065-isaiah-thomas-willing-to-delay-contract-extension-to-let-celtics-add-free-agents.amp.html

This is what I was making reference to. They in the end traded him with a year left but didn’t sign him at the time because they weren’t sold. I think everyone else got it except you.

What are you talking about? You’re literally making things up and just parading it as fact lol.

What did I lie about? The Celtics not signing IT because they weren’t sold? This is similar to the Pascal FA. We could have waited a year and made a decision then. They made the right decision. Extensions are extensions whether they are a year early or expiring.

They didn’t extend, right move, in the end, dealt him for Kyrie (in the end not making a difference BUT they didn’t have a terrible IT contract which is why the deal could even happen in the first place).

Bosh and Hayward are nothing alike lol. Hayward was a one time all-star, Bosh a perennial one.

And this is what you don’t get, FVV will be overpaid at 20 million, especially with a cap lowering. You think Fred is worth that, that’s on you, but he’s not and if he gets signed for that or more with us, we will regret it in a few years for sure.

You ignored most of the list and all were either of comparable value to Fred or even better and got similar equated deals.

You said where’s the list, I gave you a pretty long one and even if you disagree on some there are a lot of valid ones.

The only players you regret not signing are stars. Fred isn’t a star.

Howard was a superstar and the Lakers said no and in the end was the right decision.

Look at our own signing of Demarre Carroll. 15 mil and everyone here said that was fair value and he was traded with a first rounder just to get rid of him.

It’s just funny the hubris and hypocrisy with regard to putting down facts and just ignoring them and taking personal shots without reason.

I enjoy this is the state of this place now.

The responses to valid Fred has no playmaking ability, no mid range game, is in the 10th percentile for finishing at the rim, shot 10% lower TS percentage against a good defensive team and when the pressure is on him to be a scorer he becomes fairly mediocre (he was even during the season below average efficiency), who lacks size and for his good D can just be shot over, is I’m talking out of my ass.

Even those who say he stopped Steph make me laugh, the Steph who averaged 30 on 60TS was “stopped” by Fred and Fred has “championship pedigree” as though Kawhi, Kyle, and others weren’t more important in last years finals runs.

What you got? I got numbers and facts. I got all the players who signed elsewhere and the teams didn’t miss a beat.

We are talking about losing FVV. Only players who are truly regretted losing in NBA history are superstars like Lebron or Kawhi.

We are talking of a player likely to never make an all star game to be paid after he was exposed in the playoffs.

But sure, let’s go with your I’m talking out of my ass with legitimate points and your....... What exactly have you said that points to signing Fred with a cap dropping, with the position that is the deepest in the NBA, who will have to move positions where you need a playmaker which unlike Kyle, he is not and will again have to do more with his weaknesses.

“Where’s your list” - expansive list for you. And many of which are actually similar to Fred.

Your franchise won’t be made or broken by Fred.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#89 » by TheBoi10 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:56 pm

dacrusha wrote:
BBallG wrote:I don't care how much we pay him, but I am tired of having the smallest backcourt in the league so at least get him to be a 6th man until Lowry retires. Maybe when he gets paid he will be less inclined to play hero ball and will lead the bench like he did in the past.


That smallest backcourt in the league helped us win a championship.

Also one of the best defensive backcourt duos in the entire NBA.


Vanvleet was very ineffective offensively vs Boston's wings
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#90 » by VanWest82 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:08 am

Steelo Green wrote:Your franchise won’t be made or broken by Fred.


Maybe not but our season next year might be broken without him. Who are we replacing him with if we let him walk? Jeff Teague and Reggie Jackson are free agents. Dragic and Rondo are like a hundred years old. So is Lowry. He can't play PG full time anymore.

Fred led the team last year in drives and guarded opposing PGs. That's gotta come from somewhere and the answer isn't currently on the roster.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#91 » by Steelo Green » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:42 am

VanWest82 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Your franchise won’t be made or broken by Fred.


Maybe not but our season next year might be broken without him. Who are we replacing him with if we let him walk? Jeff Teague and Reggie Jackson are free agents. Dragic and Rondo are like a hundred years old. So is Lowry. He can't play PG full time anymore.

Fred led the team last year in drives and guarded opposing PGs. That's gotta come from somewhere and the answer isn't currently on the roster.

Right but personally I might put the reset.

I still think this team goes as Kyle does and once he is gone or he finally starts to break down and becomes a bench player, then a Pascal and Fred led team likely is something like the current Magic so better off not signing Fred to a massive deal.

I get the whole we just won so many games but to me that’s still because of Kyle. Even against Boston the three games we won were all the best Kyle had in the playoffs.

More than likely we don’t get Giannis so we have a core of OG, Fred and Siakam? Would rather press reset earlier and get better players through the draft than later with one of the weakest cores in the league.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#92 » by VanWest82 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:58 am

Steelo Green wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Your franchise won’t be made or broken by Fred.


Maybe not but our season next year might be broken without him. Who are we replacing him with if we let him walk? Jeff Teague and Reggie Jackson are free agents. Dragic and Rondo are like a hundred years old. So is Lowry. He can't play PG full time anymore.

Fred led the team last year in drives and guarded opposing PGs. That's gotta come from somewhere and the answer isn't currently on the roster.

Right but personally I might put the reset.

I still think this team goes as Kyle does and once he is gone or he finally starts to break down and becomes a bench player, then a Pascal and Fred led team likely is something like the current Magic so better off not signing Fred to a massive deal.

I get the whole we just won so many games but to me that’s still because of Kyle. Even against Boston the three games we won were all the best Kyle had in the playoffs.

More than likely we don’t get Giannis so we have a core of OG, Fred and Siakam? Would rather press reset earlier and get better players through the draft than later with one of the weakest cores in the league.


That's a perfectly defensible position and if we were a run-of-the-mill franchise I might agree that's the right thing to do. Masai and Co. have earned the right to prove their culture works post-Kyle. One of the ways to get great players is to trade for them which we did in the case of Kyle and Kawhi. Morrey traded for Harden, Indy for Oladipo (injury not-withstanding). You need to have good players to do that. If you bring in hard working players into a culture of winning and improvement you'll turn that into assets. It might be a little harder than tanking but it can work and there's less chance of catastrophic failure.

Long winded way of saying that I'd rather keep our options open. We can always pull the plug and tank if it's not working.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#93 » by bluerap23 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:14 am

Steelo Green wrote:
kalel123 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Huh?

What fact did I get wrong?

People literally make things up.

I said the Celtics did not sign IT even though many would have given his MVP type season. Damaged goods was known after the fact, he was in the end traded for Kyrie. Everyone was on Ainge for not signing a guy that good.

I don't like signing smaller PGs who have big deficiencies in their offensive game and can be figured out pretty easily and go 10 points below league average efficiency against better defenses.

With regard to assets: Al Horford, Gordon Hayward, Ben Wallace (Chicago signing), Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudamire, Dwight Howard (Houston), Hedo Turkoglu, Evan Turner, Chandler Parsons, Joakim Noah, Mozgov, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Penny Hardaway, Rashard Lewis, Eddie Curry

There's more, but I have good and bad players, some in their prime, some just past, some very good players, some mediocre players. GMs have let players go and been fine.

With regard to a guy like Hayward, he was never worth superstar money and the Jazz in the end are better for it, injury or not.

Letting assets go is not the end of the world. Almost none of the teams that let those guys go regretted it.


Make things up? Dude, this is why you get ignored and laughed at because you are often guilty of what you accuse others of.

Trading a player for another equivalent/better player is not letting an asset walk away for nothing. That is a fact. WTF is wrong with you? Wasn't even a sign-and-trade. Thomas wasn't even a FA yet at the time. And the main reason for trade is because who was viewed as potential franchise players at the time became available. It's time to admit you were just speaking outta your ass and move on.

And now you are just spitting bunch of s#!t out there hoping if you throw enough of it, something will stick. Of course, you don't realize most of your examples don't even apply to our situation here.

Gordon Hayward left despite being offered the max from Jazz for example. Jazz had no choice in the matter. That's equivalent to saying we let Bosh walk.

Guys like Al Horford was vastly overpaid, way more than his market value, to leave his former team. Doubt anybody else came even remotely close to what Sixers ended up giving him. Ditto on Turkoglu. That's mostly the reason GM's "let" players walk for nothing because there's a team out there willing to offer way more than anyone else would. Many here including myself are already on the record that we'd rather Van Vleet walk if that kind of situation presented itself. i.e. if a team like Knicks were offering him way more than anybody else was willing to offer. It's just that Brogdon-type money is still within reason in today's market and therefore he'd still definitely be tradeable.

Gotcha so you have nothing and just keep repeating that you have nothing and think that validates you.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2712065-isaiah-thomas-willing-to-delay-contract-extension-to-let-celtics-add-free-agents.amp.html

This is what I was making reference to. They in the end traded him with a year left but didn’t sign him at the time because they weren’t sold. I think everyone else got it except you.

What are you talking about? You’re literally making things up and just parading it as fact lol.

What did I lie about? The Celtics not signing IT because they weren’t sold? This is similar to the Pascal FA. We could have waited a year and made a decision then. They made the right decision. Extensions are extensions whether they are a year early or expiring.

They didn’t extend, right move, in the end, dealt him for Kyrie (in the end not making a difference BUT they didn’t have a terrible IT contract which is why the deal could even happen in the first place).

Bosh and Hayward are nothing alike lol. Hayward was a one time all-star, Bosh a perennial one.

And this is what you don’t get, FVV will be overpaid at 20 million, especially with a cap lowering. You think Fred is worth that, that’s on you, but he’s not and if he gets signed for that or more with us, we will regret it in a few years for sure.

You ignored most of the list and all were either of comparable value to Fred or even better and got similar equated deals.

You said where’s the list, I gave you a pretty long one and even if you disagree on some there are a lot of valid ones.

The only players you regret not signing are stars. Fred isn’t a star.

Howard was a superstar and the Lakers said no and in the end was the right decision.

Look at our own signing of Demarre Carroll. 15 mil and everyone here said that was fair value and he was traded with a first rounder just to get rid of him.

It’s just funny the hubris and hypocrisy with regard to putting down facts and just ignoring them and taking personal shots without reason.

I enjoy this is the state of this place now.

The responses to valid Fred has no playmaking ability, no mid range game, is in the 10th percentile for finishing at the rim, shot 10% lower TS percentage against a good defensive team and when the pressure is on him to be a scorer he becomes fairly mediocre (he was even during the season below average efficiency), who lacks size and for his good D can just be shot over, is I’m talking out of my ass.

Even those who say he stopped Steph make me laugh, the Steph who averaged 30 on 60TS was “stopped” by Fred and Fred has “championship pedigree” as though Kawhi, Kyle, and others weren’t more important in last years finals runs.

What you got? I got numbers and facts. I got all the players who signed elsewhere and the teams didn’t miss a beat.

We are talking about losing FVV. Only players who are truly regretted losing in NBA history are superstars like Lebron or Kawhi.

We are talking of a player likely to never make an all star game to be paid after he was exposed in the playoffs.

But sure, let’s go with your I’m talking out of my ass with legitimate points and your....... What exactly have you said that points to signing Fred with a cap dropping, with the position that is the deepest in the NBA, who will have to move positions where you need a playmaker which unlike Kyle, he is not and will again have to do more with his weaknesses.

“Where’s your list” - expansive list for you. And many of which are actually similar to Fred.

Your franchise won’t be made or broken by Fred.


No. Isaiah was traded with one year left on his deal so that they could acquire Kyrie. That is not letting a player walk by any definition. As said, you are also wrong about GH. He was offered the max by Utah. They did not let him walk. Your other examples are a joke.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#94 » by bluerap23 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:23 am

Steelo Green wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Your franchise won’t be made or broken by Fred.


Maybe not but our season next year might be broken without him. Who are we replacing him with if we let him walk? Jeff Teague and Reggie Jackson are free agents. Dragic and Rondo are like a hundred years old. So is Lowry. He can't play PG full time anymore.

Fred led the team last year in drives and guarded opposing PGs. That's gotta come from somewhere and the answer isn't currently on the roster.

Right but personally I might put the reset.

I still think this team goes as Kyle does and once he is gone or he finally starts to break down and becomes a bench player, then a Pascal and Fred led team likely is something like the current Magic so better off not signing Fred to a massive deal.

I get the whole we just won so many games but to me that’s still because of Kyle. Even against Boston the three games we won were all the best Kyle had in the playoffs.

More than likely we don’t get Giannis so we have a core of OG, Fred and Siakam? Would rather press reset earlier and get better players through the draft than later with one of the weakest cores in the league.


Raptors record this year without Kyle Lowry 12-2
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#95 » by JN » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:31 am

Oakvillehoops wrote:If we don’t sign FVV, Giannis won’t come lol. His turning point with the bucks will be that they let Brogdon Walk. He will look at this as the same


Everybody that will want Giannis will have to give up some pieces to free cap space to sign him... so it's not really the same situation at all. The exception of course is Milwaukee, which could have chosen to retain its players with no cap concerns. Giannis has to understand that any team he goes too will not have all of their pieces. An advantage for a team like Miami however, is that it can retain more of its pieces to free that space.

I'm still in favour of signing FVV if it is around 4/80... you retain your assets and make moves to make it work next year if Giannis is real. The most likely scenario is that Giannis decides he does not want to come here, so we can't throw it all away this offseason.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#96 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:03 am

Steelo Green wrote:If the cap goes down 10-15% then this is crazy.

Fred is due something like 15 mil if the cap goes down.

Also this premier position is a fallacy. It’s the deepest position in the league.


agreed. simply cannot sign him at $20M if the cap shrinks. let someone else be an idiot and overpay for him. and then watch him have a down year because he's out of the Raptors system - and everyone can have a sigh of relief.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#97 » by Ackshun » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:08 am

VanWest82 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
Maybe not but our season next year might be broken without him. Who are we replacing him with if we let him walk? Jeff Teague and Reggie Jackson are free agents. Dragic and Rondo are like a hundred years old. So is Lowry. He can't play PG full time anymore.

Fred led the team last year in drives and guarded opposing PGs. That's gotta come from somewhere and the answer isn't currently on the roster.

Right but personally I might put the reset.

I still think this team goes as Kyle does and once he is gone or he finally starts to break down and becomes a bench player, then a Pascal and Fred led team likely is something like the current Magic so better off not signing Fred to a massive deal.

I get the whole we just won so many games but to me that’s still because of Kyle. Even against Boston the three games we won were all the best Kyle had in the playoffs.

More than likely we don’t get Giannis so we have a core of OG, Fred and Siakam? Would rather press reset earlier and get better players through the draft than later with one of the weakest cores in the league.


That's a perfectly defensible position and if we were a run-of-the-mill franchise I might agree that's the right thing to do. Masai and Co. have earned the right to prove their culture works post-Kyle. One of the ways to get great players is to trade for them which we did in the case of Kyle and Kawhi. Morrey traded for Harden, Indy for Oladipo (injury not-withstanding). You need to have good players to do that. If you bring in hard working players into a culture of winning and improvement you'll turn that into assets. It might be a little harder than tanking but it can work and there's less chance of catastrophic failure.

Long winded way of saying that I'd rather keep our options open. We can always pull the plug and tank if it's not working.


This is a pretty fair take.

We do need to remain in the EC top tier if we are going to be destination for free agents. Losing FVV is tough because he has shown he can produce in the reg season, and as a 4th or 6th option in the playoffs.

There is a risk his contract is tough to trade if need be, but if we are clearing the cap for someone, attaching an asset isn't the worst.

I just hate the idea of tying up a large percentage of our cap on a player i don't see a 1A or 1B.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#98 » by VanWest82 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:16 am

Ackshun wrote:This is a pretty fair take.

We do need to remain in the EC top tier if we are going to be destination for free agents. Losing FVV is tough because he has shown he can produce in the reg season, and as a 4th or 6th option in the playoffs.

There is a risk his contract is tough to trade if need be, but if we are clearing the cap for someone, attaching an asset isn't the worst.

I just hate the idea of tying up a large percentage of our cap on a player i don't see a 1A or 1B.


Fred could be a third guy on a title team and #2/3 options get max deals now. It's insanity. We just gave one to Siakam with a DPE bonus and didn't think twice.

Think of it this way: Fred was probably our second best player last year behind Kyle. That opinion maybe ruffles some feathers around here but it's backed up by advanced stats. And the difference between Kyle and Fred is closing fast, so in a sense, he already is our 1b and we were a play or two from being in the ECF.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#99 » by Ell Curry » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:20 am

Seems fine to me even if it's Ujiri's second Nene style deal where he signs a solid player who's not old for a free agent then deals him soon after.

Van Vleet's age 27,28,29,30 seasons don't scare me (any loss of speed near the end should be compensated for by further experience and most guards improve finishing at the rim over their career and that's his biggest flaw, even if he'll never get even to average he can hopefully get out of the bottom 5-10 tier of starting PGs in that respect).

I look around the league and at Van Vleet on a 3 year deal in 2021 and think that barring an injury it would be easy to deal him without taking back more than 5M salary or burning more than a 2nd rounder. Hell today alone Kawhi says he wants a PG and you have to think we could trade him to the Clippers on an 85/4 deal for Lou Will, Beverly and a sweetener like Kabengele and divert one or both guys to teams pretty easily on their reasonable deals (26/2 for Pat Bev, 8/1 for Lou) and get at least enough back for Lou from a team who needs scoring on the 2nd unit and loves the one year deal (Most teams!) to entice some team in win now mode needing a backup PG like Phoenix or whoever to take on Pat Bev.

There is a case for going into 2021 with an insane amount of cap space and just Siakam-OG-Davis-Thomas-Watson and the 2020 and 2021 first, but I think a solid starting PG and 3rd/4th scoring option in Van Vleet is worth 20M. Nice for flexibility too, that team only needs at least 5 who can play at least 25 minutes a night (or 2 platoon guys playing like 20 and 15) and then it's pretty open to any BPA to finish the rotation.
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Re: Raptors favorites to re-sign FVV, expected to receive a Brogdon contract 

Post#100 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:30 am

barfs

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