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Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors

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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#221 » by Steelo Green » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:46 am

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
Lol. Another terrible take. Toby is terrible on D- did you miss the Raps vs Philly series last year? He's one of the worst in the league at it. Dennis sucked on D all of his career - was ok last season, but not in Fred's realm. Warren was a complete zero defensively in Phoenix, but he did start playing defense when he got to Indiana. He doesn't have nearly the impact there that Fred does.

You should start watching some ball, man.

Right so just because you say it it makes it true.

Again - on a mediocre team, Schroeder had a better defensive net rating than Fred. What does last year have to do with anything? Last year is completely irrelevant. Just like Fred’s last year.

Same with Warren.

Or do you have different sets of standards for our guys versus others.

Fred’s a Pg limited defender which isn’t a premier need in the league for defense - it’s the wing and bigs who are more important.

This person A clearly doesn’t watch because their views are different than mine is always a rich take, especially when in the end you agreed with me.

And again the point had to do with people on that list not defending at all. People keep trying to have this hands up in the air and personally attack people because they disagree and then agree begrudgingly lol. It’s funny this pseudo hubris.


Link?

NBA.com’s advanced stats. I think it’s one of your favs too.

Fred is great too at it don’t get me wrong but my point was Schroeder really has improved as a defender.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#222 » by vini_vidi_vici » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:48 am

Steelo Green wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Right so just because you say it it makes it true.

Again - on a mediocre team, Schroeder had a better defensive net rating than Fred. What does last year have to do with anything? Last year is completely irrelevant. Just like Fred’s last year.

Same with Warren.

Or do you have different sets of standards for our guys versus others.

Fred’s a Pg limited defender which isn’t a premier need in the league for defense - it’s the wing and bigs who are more important.

This person A clearly doesn’t watch because their views are different than mine is always a rich take, especially when in the end you agreed with me.

And again the point had to do with people on that list not defending at all. People keep trying to have this hands up in the air and personally attack people because they disagree and then agree begrudgingly lol. It’s funny this pseudo hubris.


Link?

NBA.com’s advanced stats. I think it’s one of your favs too.

Fred is great too at it don’t get me wrong but my point was Schroeder really has improved as a defender.


So what you said is false.
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iDRTG is terrible.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#223 » by Steelo Green » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:55 am

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:
Link?

NBA.com’s advanced stats. I think it’s one of your favs too.

Fred is great too at it don’t get me wrong but my point was Schroeder really has improved as a defender.


So what you said is false.

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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#224 » by vini_vidi_vici » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:39 am

Steelo Green wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:NBA.com’s advanced stats. I think it’s one of your favs too.

Fred is great too at it don’t get me wrong but my point was Schroeder really has improved as a defender.


So what you said is false.

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This is exactly my point.

Dennis Schroeder isnt better than Fred VanVleet.

The Thunder are better with Dennis Schroeder on the floor defensively, than the Raptors when Fred VanVleet is on the floor for them. You want nuance correct?

I just gave you a tonne of stats, the same thing I did in this thread and this one. Your response is about our hubris.

If you want to say ____ sucks, thats your opinion, and I would disagree but ultimately it comes down to our own personal expectations, vs what happened. What im telling you is just because youre being obtuse about the nuance of a stat, which I know you know, it affects the argument. FVV is by most measures (specifically individual defender stats), among the elite defenders at G. He shut down the same guys you said werent (Kemba/Steph, as your examples).

Steelo Green wrote:If 20+ mil goes to Fred, just like my prediction with regard to Fred and Pascal struggling against Boston, it will be Demar all over again.


We get it, you told us your position a month ago, and now in your staunch defense youre using one stat out of context to prove that "Fred’s a Pg limited defender which isn’t a premier need in the league for defense". All of which, is also false.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#225 » by Kurtz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:43 am

Steelo Green wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:lol

Warren is the better player pretty easily, Schroeder is actually very good on D and an underrated player in general, just doesn't ply for the Raptors to talk about it.

You said none of them play D, so yeah, no.


Lol. Another terrible take. Toby is terrible on D- did you miss the Raps vs Philly series last year? He's one of the worst in the league at it. Dennis sucked on D all of his career - was ok last season, but not in Fred's realm. Warren was a complete zero defensively in Phoenix, but he did start playing defense when he got to Indiana. He doesn't have nearly the impact there that Fred does.

You should start watching some ball, man.

Right so just because you say it it makes it true.

Again - on a mediocre team, Schroeder had a better defensive net rating than Fred. What does last year have to do with anything? Last year is completely irrelevant. Just like Fred’s last year.

Same with Warren.

Or do you have different sets of standards for our guys versus others.

Fred’s a Pg limited defender which isn’t a premier need in the league for defense - it’s the wing and bigs who are more important.

This person A clearly doesn’t watch because their views are different than mine is always a rich take, especially when in the end you agreed with me.

And again the point had to do with people on that list not defending at all. People keep trying to have this hands up in the air and personally attack people because they disagree and then agree begrudgingly lol. It’s funny this pseudo hubris.


This season's defensive stats:

FVV:
Defensive Win Shares: 3.1
Defensive Box Plus Minus: 1.2
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 106

Shroeder:
Defensive Win Shares: 1.8
Defensive Box Plus Minus: -1.1
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 112

Warren:
Defensive Win Shares: 2.6
Defensive Box Plus Minus: 0.0
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 110

Toby Harris:
Defensive Win Shares: 2.7
Defensive Box Plus Minus: -0.5
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 110


https://www.basketball-reference.com/
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#226 » by Steelo Green » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:46 am

Kurtz wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
Lol. Another terrible take. Toby is terrible on D- did you miss the Raps vs Philly series last year? He's one of the worst in the league at it. Dennis sucked on D all of his career - was ok last season, but not in Fred's realm. Warren was a complete zero defensively in Phoenix, but he did start playing defense when he got to Indiana. He doesn't have nearly the impact there that Fred does.

You should start watching some ball, man.

Right so just because you say it it makes it true.

Again - on a mediocre team, Schroeder had a better defensive net rating than Fred. What does last year have to do with anything? Last year is completely irrelevant. Just like Fred’s last year.

Same with Warren.

Or do you have different sets of standards for our guys versus others.

Fred’s a Pg limited defender which isn’t a premier need in the league for defense - it’s the wing and bigs who are more important.

This person A clearly doesn’t watch because their views are different than mine is always a rich take, especially when in the end you agreed with me.

And again the point had to do with people on that list not defending at all. People keep trying to have this hands up in the air and personally attack people because they disagree and then agree begrudgingly lol. It’s funny this pseudo hubris.


This season's defensive stats:

FVV:
Defensive Win Shares: 3.1
Defensive Box Plus Minus: 1.2
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 106

Shroeder:
Defensive Win Shares: 1.8
Defensive Box Plus Minus: -1.1
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 112

Warren:
Defensive Win Shares: 2.6
Defensive Box Plus Minus: 0.0
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 110

Toby Harris:
Defensive Win Shares: 2.7
Defensive Box Plus Minus: -0.5
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 110


https://www.basketball-reference.com/

Uhhhh you do know those are box score related and estimates not on floor impact related. You can scroll up to see the correct one that shows on floor impact.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#227 » by Steelo Green » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:48 am

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:
So what you said is false.

Image


This is exactly my point.

Dennis Schroeder isnt better than Fred VanVleet.

The Thunder are better with Dennis Schroeder on the floor defensively, than the Raptors when Fred VanVleet is on the floor for them. You want nuance correct?

I just gave you a tonne of stats, the same thing I did in this thread and this one. Your response is about our hubris.

If you want to say ____ sucks, thats your opinion, and I would disagree but ultimately it comes down to our own personal expectations, vs what happened. What im telling you is just because youre being obtuse about the nuance of a stat, which I know you know, it affects the argument. FVV is by most measures (specifically individual defender stats), among the elite defenders at G. He shut down the same guys you said werent (Kemba/Steph, as your examples).

Steelo Green wrote:If 20+ mil goes to Fred, just like my prediction with regard to Fred and Pascal struggling against Boston, it will be Demar all over again.


We get it, you told us your position a month ago, and now in your staunch defense youre using one stat out of context to prove that "Fred’s a Pg limited defender which isn’t a premier need in the league for defense". All of which, is also false.

What on earth are you talking about.

When did I say Dennis was better? I said his defensive net rating was better. I said he’s a good defender and there is the proof of it. He’s the only Thunder player in the vicinity showing he doesn’t just benefit from his teammates unlike the rest of the list which is all players from the same teams.

This all goes back to my point the Schroeder is a good defender. Which he is. Not the useless on defense as was originally postulated.

Don’t know why people keep making up narratives because they want to argue.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#228 » by Kurtz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:36 am

Steelo Green wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Right so just because you say it it makes it true.

Again - on a mediocre team, Schroeder had a better defensive net rating than Fred. What does last year have to do with anything? Last year is completely irrelevant. Just like Fred’s last year.

Same with Warren.

Or do you have different sets of standards for our guys versus others.

Fred’s a Pg limited defender which isn’t a premier need in the league for defense - it’s the wing and bigs who are more important.

This person A clearly doesn’t watch because their views are different than mine is always a rich take, especially when in the end you agreed with me.

And again the point had to do with people on that list not defending at all. People keep trying to have this hands up in the air and personally attack people because they disagree and then agree begrudgingly lol. It’s funny this pseudo hubris.


This season's defensive stats:

FVV:
Defensive Win Shares: 3.1
Defensive Box Plus Minus: 1.2
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 106

Shroeder:
Defensive Win Shares: 1.8
Defensive Box Plus Minus: -1.1
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 112

Warren:
Defensive Win Shares: 2.6
Defensive Box Plus Minus: 0.0
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 110

Toby Harris:
Defensive Win Shares: 2.7
Defensive Box Plus Minus: -0.5
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 110


https://www.basketball-reference.com/

Uhhhh you do know those are box score related and estimates not on floor impact related. You can scroll up to see the correct one that shows on floor impact.


Before I spend more time digging for stats that you find reasons to reject - could you tell me what precisely it is that you're even trying to argue at this point?
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#229 » by Steelo Green » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:47 am

[streamable][/streamable]
Kurtz wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
This season's defensive stats:

FVV:
Defensive Win Shares: 3.1
Defensive Box Plus Minus: 1.2
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 106

Shroeder:
Defensive Win Shares: 1.8
Defensive Box Plus Minus: -1.1
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 112

Warren:
Defensive Win Shares: 2.6
Defensive Box Plus Minus: 0.0
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 110

Toby Harris:
Defensive Win Shares: 2.7
Defensive Box Plus Minus: -0.5
Defensive Rating (lower is better): 110


https://www.basketball-reference.com/

Uhhhh you do know those are box score related and estimates not on floor impact related. You can scroll up to see the correct one that shows on floor impact.


Before I spend more time digging for stats that you find reasons to reject - could you tell me what precisely it is that you're even trying to argue at this point?

VVV himself said iDRTG is terrible in his signature.

All I said and for some reason this became anger for everyone was Schroder and Warren are good defenders from that original list lol.

I think Harris gets a little hate but fine people can disagree.

Those two are good defenders was my only point.

Did I say Fred is worse than them? Go back to the original quote. I said those two are good defenders with Warren being the better player.

People are arguing against themselves and don’t read what’s said. It’s comical.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#230 » by Kurtz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:53 am

Steelo Green wrote:[streamable][/streamable]
Kurtz wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:Uhhhh you do know those are box score related and estimates not on floor impact related. You can scroll up to see the correct one that shows on floor impact.


Before I spend more time digging for stats that you find reasons to reject - could you tell me what precisely it is that you're even trying to argue at this point?

VVV himself said iDRTG is terrible in his signature.

All I said and for some reason this became anger for everyone was Schroder and Warren are good defenders from that original list lol.

I think Harris gets a little hate but fine people can disagree.

Those two are good defenders was my only point.

Did I say Fred is worse than them? Go back to the original quote. I said those two are good defenders with Warren being the better player.

People are arguing against themselves and don’t read what’s said. It’s comical.


I think when you list Harris as a good defender it naturally provokes a wtf reaction from anyone who's watched him play. If you're no longer arguing that or Warren (who again was bad in Phoenix but fine on Indy), and are just arguing that Shroeder is good on D - then sure, Schroeder is an underrated defender.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#231 » by bballsparkin » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:17 am

Considering some of the contracts signed recently and my fear FVV would get grossly overpaid, I can live with 4 years for $85M. Seems alright by me.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#232 » by mdenny » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:39 am

bballsparkin wrote:Considering some of the contracts signed recently and my fear FVV would get grossly overpaid, I can live with 4 years for $85M. Seems alright by me.


Fred will be an allstar this upcoming season and by year 3 of this contract we're gonna be getting a max-level player for 21 milly per for 2 more years.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#233 » by will » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:02 pm

Go on, Senior. Do your thang, player.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#234 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:21 pm

mdenny wrote:
bballsparkin wrote:Considering some of the contracts signed recently and my fear FVV would get grossly overpaid, I can live with 4 years for $85M. Seems alright by me.


Fred will be an allstar this upcoming season and by year 3 of this contract we're gonna be getting a max-level player for 21 milly per for 2 more years.


FVV an all star?

lets look at the guards that will probably be an all star

Kemba Walker
Trae Young
Jimmy Butler
Jrue Holiday
Ben Simmons

and others to consider Kyrie, Lowry, Jalen Brown

FVV will surely not be an NBA all star.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#235 » by Jadoogar » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:13 am

Do people like this think that teams should only sign stars or minimum salaries?
DonDoolie wrote:Terrible. 21 million for fred is a **** joke. Goodbye being a competitive team if we are just handing out money like this to role players. Especially a guard that **** the bed as soon as they put size on him. Ffs


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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#236 » by Jadoogar » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:39 am

Lol this makes your point worse as most of these players make a similar amount to FVV (many make much more)
DonDoolie wrote:
realball wrote:
DonDoolie wrote:
THAT is your justification for his terrible deal? He scored 18ppg? Lmfao. Oh and if you watched any damn basketball in your life you would know there were plenty of role players that got 18ppg before. Yah read the room its a bunch of homers. I'll keep this thread saved just so I can laugh in the future.


Peace.


Oh right, my argument is so much worse than you just saying he's a role-player over and over again. Why don't you name some role-players who dropped 18 ppg? How about role-players who started on the team with the second-best record while dropping 18/7?

Go cry in your little corner and leave us all alone, ya dunce. Go cry in the future, leave us to enjoy the present.


There were 52 people in the league that scored more than fred ppg wise just last year. Now let's look at role players

Wiggins
Schroeder
Lou Williams
Collin sexton
Dinwiddie
Bojan bogdanovic
Warren
Tobias Harris
Julius Randle
Gallo
Fournier
Graham
Rose
Rozier

Lmfao

Keep being a homer i can list more. Fred is a product of the system plug any pg in his role and they would do well on the raptors


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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#237 » by Johnny Bball » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:10 am

This board is in a struggle to become either better like the past few years or returning to the old days where it was unbearable to read because there was nothing here of substance and it was just endless negativity and moaning.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#238 » by douggood » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:13 am

raptors signed the #1 ufa on all lists for a reasonable salary and yet we still have a group of complainers.

edit i guess AD is a ufa as well, but he wasnt going anywhere, 2nd on lists is Ingram as RFA.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#239 » by NBJ13 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:49 pm

Our core moving forward are former g-league champs
.
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Re: Shams: Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors 

Post#240 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:13 pm

NBJ13 wrote:Our core moving forward are former g-league champs
And NBA champs.

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