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Back on the treadmill

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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#181 » by ATLTimekeeper » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:48 pm

JN wrote:Even if 2021 Giannis or another big FA is a longshot, we have now maintained full flexibility for 2021 (FA / Trading Picks / Bringing it Back), with the only cost being Ibaka. It hurts but is hardly crushing or something to get overly dramatic about.

We also have 2 players now with team options that are always a good value -- Baynes and Boucher. If they play well, they will be good contracts for retention in 2021/2022 or valuable assets at this year's deadline. If they play poorly they are gone.


This was always the case. The Raptors are attempting to be a very good team with a max slot available, and they've maintained all their future firsts. If not Giannis, maybe there's a trade to be made. It's a strategy for an attempt to get better. If they strike out, they still have options on being a very good team.

The people crying about this likely want Masai to be terrible for 5 years so that they can then complain that the promising player we drafted top 5 doesn't have "it" or doesn't have enough help. It's just always onto the next thing to cry about. What a way to follow the sport.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#182 » by Parataxis » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:57 pm

So, just so I'm clear.

i) We can't sign a FA
ii) We won't be able to trade for a star
iii) Tanking for a top pick is a crapshoot that's unlikely to succeed
and
iv) If tanking somehow DOES succeed, our star will leave us as soon as possible (and we won't be able to sign any FAs to support him)

So...

What do people think our route to success actually is? Or is this more of a 'we're doomed forever' sort of notion?
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#183 » by VinBaker6 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:56 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.


Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#184 » by beanbag » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:11 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.


Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?


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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#185 » by Ramed Nazored » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:12 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.


Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?


Be grateful that we got to experience a championship and are still fielding a competitive team. That's where we go from here.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#186 » by MixxSRC » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:15 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.


Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?


Noone is forcing you to watch. If Masai leaves I'm dipping
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#187 » by RapsAndJays21 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:21 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.


Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?


We've also had a better decade than all the easy playoff teams outside of the Heat probably.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#188 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:22 pm

RapsAndJays21 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.


Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?


We've also had a better decade than all the easy playoff teams outside of the Heat probably.


like all franchises: ebbs and flows.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#189 » by dacrusha » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:44 pm

This isn’t Detroit or Sacramento or Minnesota.

FVV, OG and Pascal (and who knows, maybe Flynn will join that group) are the core of the next 5-7 years of 50-win seasons.

No matter the Giannis situation, this team is set with solid young talent for years to come - now just need to pounce when an opportunity to add another difference maker presents itself.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#190 » by Badonkadonk » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:49 pm

MixxSRC wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.


Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?

Noone is forcing you to watch. If Masai leaves I'm dipping

So wait, you're going to stop being a fan of the Raptors if Masai leaves and Webster is the top guy?
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#191 » by gerrit4 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:52 pm

Well, I'm still a believer that you only tank when you can't win - so if we're under .500 at the deadline it makes sense to start tanking.

But otherwise, longterm tanking is really just a way to get to being as good as we were for the past 8 seasons. I mean, if you tank for three drafts, a REALLY good outcome would be having a core similar to one of these teams.

Philly:
Embiid
Simmons
Saric

Washington:
Wall
Beal
Porter

LA:
Gordon
Griffin
DJ

Jazz:
Gobert
Mitchell
Hood

Timberwolves:
Kat
Wiggins
Lavine


Those are all teams with better than average draft picks for a three year stretch (I know they're not all consecutive). But if we could tank for three seasons, and get the equivalent of Gordon/DJ/Blake, that would be some really great scouting by our FO. It's probably not realistic to hope for that. And none of those teams even made it to a conference finals.

Tanking is fine when you need to, but being realistic, you're just doing it to get back into the 50 win/second round of playoffs zone. No matter what, you need a little extra something to get to the next level - whether it's like how we got Kawhi, how GSW got KD, or how Cleveland/Miami got Bron.

I guess the best way would be to try to have our cake and eat it too - like how Boston traded Pierce/KG/Rondo, stayed competitive and had future picks.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#192 » by MixxSRC » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:52 pm

Badonkadonk wrote:
MixxSRC wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:
Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?

Noone is forcing you to watch. If Masai leaves I'm dipping

So wait, you're going to stop being a fan of the Raptors if Masai leaves and Webster is the top guy?


What if Masai leaves and takes his whole team with him?
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#193 » by Kordic27 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:56 pm

Parataxis wrote:So, just so I'm clear.

i) We can't sign a FA
ii) We won't be able to trade for a star
iii) Tanking for a top pick is a crapshoot that's unlikely to succeed
and
iv) If tanking somehow DOES succeed, our star will leave us as soon as possible (and we won't be able to sign any FAs to support him)

So...

What do people think our route to success actually is? Or is this more of a 'we're doomed forever' sort of notion?


“We’re doomed forever” is a great summation of the POV for half this board, regardless of what’s up with the team.

Oh, and you missed v) the refs are out to get us.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#194 » by Steelo Green » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:00 pm

There’s a difference between a bad management who can’t draft and a good one.

Going back into the lottery is a crap shoot if you’re a team like Charlotte who literally just misses every year, but with Bobby and Tolzman who do well at getting rotation players in the draft and not drafted, 2-3 years of top 5-10 picks and you could have 1-3 all stars.

People think everything is in a vacuum. Having the management who has the eye for talent is just as important - and that’s one thing this group is great at.

So yeah, tank and let’s see who they find in the draft. I’m sure the Kings will pass on another Luka or Trae stupidly again.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#195 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:01 pm

MixxSRC wrote:
Badonkadonk wrote:
MixxSRC wrote:Noone is forcing you to watch. If Masai leaves I'm dipping

So wait, you're going to stop being a fan of the Raptors if Masai leaves and Webster is the top guy?


What if Masai leaves and takes his whole team with him?


What if Bell/Rogers give Masai a controlling stake and he moves the team!
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#196 » by OakleyDokely » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:07 pm

No matter how many wins, no matter how many championships, this board will never change.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#197 » by Parataxis » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:10 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.


Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?



*sigh* Worst future? :lol:

We have a solid young core who are with us for the next four years. We've got some great looking prospects. We've got all (or nearly all?) of our draft picks, AND we've got plenty of cap flexibility for signings or trades.

Our future is bright.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#198 » by MavCarter » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:15 pm

Raptors might have some inevitable down years coming up but only teams who cant draft get stuck on the treadmill. Either the young players we draft and develop keep us competitive or they'll develop into trade pieces for another star. You can't be a contender every single year and it takes more than 1 offseason to build one stop being delusional fans
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#199 » by Vampirate » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:18 pm

Steelo Green wrote:There’s a difference between a bad management who can’t draft and a good one.

Going back into the lottery is a crap shoot if you’re a team like Charlotte who literally just misses every year, but with Bobby and Tolzman who do well at getting rotation players in the draft and not drafted, 2-3 years of top 5-10 picks and you could have 1-3 all stars.

People think everything is in a vacuum. Having the management who has the eye for talent is just as important - and that’s one thing this group is great at.

So yeah, tank and let’s see who they find in the draft. I’m sure the Kings will pass on another Luka or Trae stupidly again.


The Raptors are too good regular season wise to tank. They'd have to gut the whole Roster to do so basically.
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Re: Back on the treadmill 

Post#200 » by AT17 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:30 pm

The Harden situation has demonstrated to us is that player empowerment is not going to trend away any time soon - the market for disgruntled stars is not going to thin out. You can do everything you can please a player and still strike out. If I'm looking at around the league, my hunch is that the clock ticking for Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, and I suspect even Ben Simmons, just like Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis as the predecessors that came before.

There's going to be another opportunity just like the draft, except your ability to keep a winning culture is only going to help not hurt your chances. Getting a lottery pick, however, has the opposite equation. You either tank for a high pick, or continue to compete (or "treadmill") in hopes of a rumour mill to start on the next star entering free agency or demand a trade.

The last team that used organic growth that paved the way to championship was 2014-2015 Golden State warriors - after 5 straight losing seasons from when they drafted Curry in 2009; a once in a generation star. And they had to stink their way to drafting Klay Thompson as well. The Process actually worked - except it happened in Golden State. And Dallas looks like to follow the same trajectory with Luca Doncic.

What I'm saying is if I had to choose between the two paths to success - tanking or 'treadmilling', I much much rather put a winning product, a competitive 'treadmill' team on the floor. Especially so if we can maintain cap flexibility, picks, and core talent.

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