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Tank World Order

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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#761 » by PrinceAli » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:06 pm

Jetfire wrote:
T-d0t wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:
Boucher's short contract right now is very valuable (especially to a contender), little risk and all the upside. If we wait on trading Boucher, his next contract may not be as valuable as right now.
Exactly. He is also putting up some unsustainable numbers/percentages. Happy for him though


I don't think their outside the realm of near consistent production for him. He never received the minutes to deliver in the past. Also context is highly relevant, he's our defacto big so he will default to greater number of boards. He has also shown to be a consistent blocker. His shot has improved considerably, if he continues to develop defensively I think we could see a big turn around for him.

Like I said though I think this is highly contextual based on the current make up of our team at the moment.

If he tacks on some real dense muscle he could be something really awesome.

PrinceAli wrote:Bouchers value right now is as high as it’ll ever be. With the way his stock has risen I think we could get a first round pick from some team for him. If that’s on the table I hope we go for it


I have to disagree with this. He's shown immense grown in a year alone. You can't discount that for yet another prospect play. Raps also have an incredibly terrible track record at predicting talent growth.

He’s not gonna get anymore efficient than he’s been playing right now. If anything his shooting percentages will die down a bit. He’s not gonna get any bigger so he’s always gonna be a specialist that can do great in small ball but against other big men he could struggle. He’s also not young. 28 is basically his prime so while he may potentially improve a little more, the growth rate won’t be as drastic. And as others have mentioned before, a key part of his value is how great of a contract he’s under. As soon as he gets into a bigger deal in the future, his trade value will get hit
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#762 » by Hero » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:07 pm

Scouting wise are we expecting to have a lot less info compared to previous years on the prospects? I haven't been following NCAA.
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#763 » by Pooh_Jeter » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:11 pm

XTC wrote:FVV
Cade
OG
Siakam
Boucher

FVV
Norm
OG
Siakam
Mobley

Suggs
FVV
OG
Siakam
Boucher

All 3 fill such a huge hole for us. If we tank and come out with any of those 3, this team is headed in the right direction.


Honestly, I think a 2 year tank is the best course of action. I can't imagine a scenario where Norm is back (best to trade him for assets). Boucher has been great, but he only has one more year left and he is 28, I'd cash in on him too.

I'd be aggressive in shopping FVV, Siakam and OG too. They don't all have to go, but a rookie is going to take at least 2 years to be that all-star calibre player the Raptors need so I don't think they fit ideally with that timeline. I think you want basically all your assets to lineup with who you get in the next 2 drafts and beyond.
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#764 » by PrinceAli » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:13 pm

Hero wrote:Scouting wise are we expecting to have a lot less info compared to previous years on the prospects? I haven't been following NCAA.

I think the amount of games played are a bit less than usual years but it’s still enough of a sample size to evaluate players
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#765 » by PrinceAli » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:15 pm

Pooh_Jeter wrote:
XTC wrote:FVV
Cade
OG
Siakam
Boucher

FVV
Norm
OG
Siakam
Mobley

Suggs
FVV
OG
Siakam
Boucher

All 3 fill such a huge hole for us. If we tank and come out with any of those 3, this team is headed in the right direction.


Honestly, I think a 2 year tank is the best course of action. I can't imagine a scenario where Norm is back (best to trade him for assets). Boucher has been great, but he only has one more year left and he is 28, I'd cash in on him too.

I'd be aggressive in shopping FVV, Siakam and OG too. They don't all have to go, but a rookie is going to take at least 2 years to be that all-star calibre player the Raptors need so I don't think they fit ideally with that timeline. I think you want basically all your assets to lineup with who you get in the next 2 drafts and beyond.

I agree. I’d rather we go all in on a 2 year accelerated rebuild with these next 2 drafts. If we can sell high on most of the assets we have (OGs still very young so he can fit in with the rebuild timeline) and can come out with a top 5 pick in the next 2 drafts we’d be set for the next 10 years
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#766 » by Pooh_Jeter » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:19 pm

PrinceAli wrote:
Jetfire wrote:
T-d0t wrote:Exactly. He is also putting up some unsustainable numbers/percentages. Happy for him though


I don't think their outside the realm of near consistent production for him. He never received the minutes to deliver in the past. Also context is highly relevant, he's our defacto big so he will default to greater number of boards. He has also shown to be a consistent blocker. His shot has improved considerably, if he continues to develop defensively I think we could see a big turn around for him.

Like I said though I think this is highly contextual based on the current make up of our team at the moment.

If he tacks on some real dense muscle he could be something really awesome.

PrinceAli wrote:Bouchers value right now is as high as it’ll ever be. With the way his stock has risen I think we could get a first round pick from some team for him. If that’s on the table I hope we go for it


I have to disagree with this. He's shown immense grown in a year alone. You can't discount that for yet another prospect play. Raps also have an incredibly terrible track record at predicting talent growth.

He’s not gonna get anymore efficient than he’s been playing right now. If anything his shooting percentages will die down a bit. He’s not gonna get any bigger so he’s always gonna be a specialist that can do great in small ball but against other big men he could struggle. He’s also not young. 28 is basically his prime so while he may potentially improve a little more, the growth rate won’t be as drastic. And as others have mentioned before, a key part of his value is how great of a contract he’s under. As soon as he gets into a bigger deal in the future, his trade value will get hit


Holding onto him and paying him market rate is what got the Raptors into the current situation they are in. Boucher has shown he is ready for consistent minutes and has played really well. His 3 point shooting definitely isn't sustainable, but given minutes he will be productive.

Like you said though, he is still kind of a specialist. Beyond the size issues, he is also foul prone which limits his ability to play heavy minutes. At 28 the ship has sailed on him ever bulking up. His frame is tiny and he will never be more than a bean pole. I'm sure there is still some development left in him, but counting on some sort of giant leap at this stage would be lunacy. Given that his elite skills are his motor and combo of length/mobility at his size I wouldn't want to be paying his next contract into his 30s.
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#767 » by KL78192020 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:20 pm

PrinceAli wrote:
Hero wrote:Scouting wise are we expecting to have a lot less info compared to previous years on the prospects? I haven't been following NCAA.

I think the amount of games played are a bit less than usual years but it’s still enough of a sample size to evaluate players


Two of key guys haven't played on the Elite g league team. I think they get 10 games thats about it.
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#768 » by PrinceAli » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:27 pm

KL78192020 wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:
Hero wrote:Scouting wise are we expecting to have a lot less info compared to previous years on the prospects? I haven't been following NCAA.

I think the amount of games played are a bit less than usual years but it’s still enough of a sample size to evaluate players


Two of key guys haven't played on the Elite g league team. I think they get 10 games thats about it.

I think reports said they’re gonna have 12-15 games for regular season plus an 8 team single elimination playoff. A sample size of 15 or so games should be good enough to get an understanding of the Kuminga and Jalen
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#769 » by PrinceAli » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:30 pm

Pooh_Jeter wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:
Jetfire wrote:
I don't think their outside the realm of near consistent production for him. He never received the minutes to deliver in the past. Also context is highly relevant, he's our defacto big so he will default to greater number of boards. He has also shown to be a consistent blocker. His shot has improved considerably, if he continues to develop defensively I think we could see a big turn around for him.

Like I said though I think this is highly contextual based on the current make up of our team at the moment.

If he tacks on some real dense muscle he could be something really awesome.



I have to disagree with this. He's shown immense grown in a year alone. You can't discount that for yet another prospect play. Raps also have an incredibly terrible track record at predicting talent growth.

He’s not gonna get anymore efficient than he’s been playing right now. If anything his shooting percentages will die down a bit. He’s not gonna get any bigger so he’s always gonna be a specialist that can do great in small ball but against other big men he could struggle. He’s also not young. 28 is basically his prime so while he may potentially improve a little more, the growth rate won’t be as drastic. And as others have mentioned before, a key part of his value is how great of a contract he’s under. As soon as he gets into a bigger deal in the future, his trade value will get hit


Holding onto him and paying him market rate is what got the Raptors into the current situation they are in. Boucher has shown he is ready for consistent minutes and has played really well. His 3 point shooting definitely isn't sustainable, but given minutes he will be productive.

Like you said though, he is still kind of a specialist. Beyond the size issues, he is also foul prone which limits his ability to play heavy minutes. At 28 the ship has sailed on him ever bulking up. His frame is tiny and he will never be more than a bean pole. I'm sure there is still some development left in him, but counting on some sort of giant leap at this stage would be lunacy. Given that his elite skills are his motor and combo of length/mobility at his size I wouldn't want to be paying his next contract into his 30s.

Yeah I think the smart thing to do with regards to asset management would be to deal him at the deadline. I don’t think we’ll actually end up making the move though
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#770 » by kj_ » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:36 pm

Pooh_Jeter wrote:Blazers are total frauds, but you see the benefit of having 2 elite shot creators. TWO only grows stronger.

Would your position be that Portland blow it up and start over?


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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#771 » by 720 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:04 pm

kj_ wrote:
Pooh_Jeter wrote:Blazers are total frauds, but you see the benefit of having 2 elite shot creators. TWO only grows stronger.

Would your position be that Portland blow it up and start over?


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If the franchise just wants to never win a ring with that core then they should keep their two short all star guards. If they want to win a ring they need to trade CJ for another star or just blow it up.
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#772 » by Marty_Budda » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:06 pm

PrinceAli wrote:
Pooh_Jeter wrote:
XTC wrote:FVV
Cade
OG
Siakam
Boucher

FVV
Norm
OG
Siakam
Mobley

Suggs
FVV
OG
Siakam
Boucher

All 3 fill such a huge hole for us. If we tank and come out with any of those 3, this team is headed in the right direction.


Honestly, I think a 2 year tank is the best course of action. I can't imagine a scenario where Norm is back (best to trade him for assets). Boucher has been great, but he only has one more year left and he is 28, I'd cash in on him too.

I'd be aggressive in shopping FVV, Siakam and OG too. They don't all have to go, but a rookie is going to take at least 2 years to be that all-star calibre player the Raptors need so I don't think they fit ideally with that timeline. I think you want basically all your assets to lineup with who you get in the next 2 drafts and beyond.

I agree. I’d rather we go all in on a 2 year accelerated rebuild with these next 2 drafts. If we can sell high on most of the assets we have (OGs still very young so he can fit in with the rebuild timeline) and can come out with a top 5 pick in the next 2 drafts we’d be set for the next 10 years


I don’t agree with a 2 year rebuild. If we get a stud this draft and surround him with guys like pascal, OG, Fred , a center in free agency like Allen or Collins. we’re back to being a top 4/5 team in the east with lots of upside. OG and pascal aren’t done developing yet.

If you trade these guys for draft picks it won’t be for 4 or 5 years or maybe longer until those players develop to be as good as pascal OG and Fred.

Trading norm and Kyle I’d be okay with but I’d love it if Kyle re-signs here in the summer and drops to the bench to lead the bench unit.

Fvv
Cade/Suggs
OG
Pascal
Allen/Collins

Kyle, Boucher, TD off the bench.

That’s an exciting young team that’d be really good.
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#773 » by Pooh_Jeter » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:11 pm

kj_ wrote:
Pooh_Jeter wrote:Blazers are total frauds, but you see the benefit of having 2 elite shot creators. TWO only grows stronger.

Would your position be that Portland blow it up and start over?


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While Dame isn't a tier 1 star, he is a guy worth building around and from all indications he wants to be there. Their issue is roster construction and some bad luck.

Nurkic was really really good 2 years ago and still quite good in the bubble last year, but he has been a train wreck this year. Zach Collins is decent, but he is constantly hurt. Covington is extremely overrated and the overall state of their wings is awful outside of Gary Trent's emergence (he is more of a guard anyways). I think DJJ is the only move I kind of liked for them and he is an energy guy off the bench.

You can have one of Kanter and Melo, but not both and certainly not playing together. CJ has gotten better and better, but I think their only move is to deal him for a wing at this point. With Collins hurt they can't really create a trade package with all their young guys plus picks for anything substantial.

Offensively they get stuck in the mud too much and defensively they are just outright bad. It's not a good recipe especially in the West.
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#774 » by Pooh_Jeter » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:21 pm

Marty_Budda wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:
Pooh_Jeter wrote:
Honestly, I think a 2 year tank is the best course of action. I can't imagine a scenario where Norm is back (best to trade him for assets). Boucher has been great, but he only has one more year left and he is 28, I'd cash in on him too.

I'd be aggressive in shopping FVV, Siakam and OG too. They don't all have to go, but a rookie is going to take at least 2 years to be that all-star calibre player the Raptors need so I don't think they fit ideally with that timeline. I think you want basically all your assets to lineup with who you get in the next 2 drafts and beyond.

I agree. I’d rather we go all in on a 2 year accelerated rebuild with these next 2 drafts. If we can sell high on most of the assets we have (OGs still very young so he can fit in with the rebuild timeline) and can come out with a top 5 pick in the next 2 drafts we’d be set for the next 10 years


I don’t agree with a 2 year rebuild. If we get a stud this draft and surround him with guys like pascal, OG, Fred , a center in free agency like Allen or Collins. we’re back to being a top 4/5 team in the east with lots of upside. OG and pascal aren’t done developing yet.

If you trade these guys for draft picks it won’t be for 4 or 5 years or maybe longer until those players develop to be as good as pascal OG and Fred.

Trading norm and Kyle I’d be okay with but I’d love it if Kyle re-signs here in the summer and drops to the bench to lead the bench unit.

Fvv
Cade/Suggs
OG
Pascal
Allen/Collins

Kyle, Boucher, TD off the bench.

That’s an exciting young team that’d be really good.


The chances of getting Cade/Suggs if everyone is kept around is slim to none. At the very least you need to trade Kyle and Norm.

Allen is starting in Brooklyn now and there is no way they let him go unless it's a trade. Collins is pretty much in a similar boat although with a max offersheet it's possible at least.

Ignoring that stuff, it's going to take any rookie who comes here some time to reach their potential. It's an extremely dangerous game banking on them to be that guy within 2 years and going full steam ahead in building a team. If that guy doesn't live up to his potential then you are back in the same position you are currently in 2 or 3 years.

1 year stealth tanks are for teams that already have that star player, fast tracking it when you have a bunch of nickels, dimes and quarters is a recipe for disaster.
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#775 » by NotMyKawhi » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:32 pm

I'd look to acquire another 1st round pick, no matter where it falls!


the sleepers of the 2021 will be the G-league guys. No one talks abt them. the lower guys especially. Green and Kuminga will prolly stay top 5 no matter what


But nix, Todd and even a guy like kai sotto. They're getting nba training going up against way better talent than NCAA players. Amir Johnson is on their team. He's a vet who can teach them more than most in NCAA imo
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#776 » by Marty_Budda » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:34 pm

Pooh_Jeter wrote:
Marty_Budda wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:I agree. I’d rather we go all in on a 2 year accelerated rebuild with these next 2 drafts. If we can sell high on most of the assets we have (OGs still very young so he can fit in with the rebuild timeline) and can come out with a top 5 pick in the next 2 drafts we’d be set for the next 10 years


I don’t agree with a 2 year rebuild. If we get a stud this draft and surround him with guys like pascal, OG, Fred , a center in free agency like Allen or Collins. we’re back to being a top 4/5 team in the east with lots of upside. OG and pascal aren’t done developing yet.

If you trade these guys for draft picks it won’t be for 4 or 5 years or maybe longer until those players develop to be as good as pascal OG and Fred.

Trading norm and Kyle I’d be okay with but I’d love it if Kyle re-signs here in the summer and drops to the bench to lead the bench unit.

Fvv
Cade/Suggs
OG
Pascal
Allen/Collins

Kyle, Boucher, TD off the bench.

That’s an exciting young team that’d be really good.


The chances of getting Cade/Suggs if everyone is kept around is slim to none. At the very least you need to trade Kyle and Norm.

Allen is starting in Brooklyn now and there is no way they let him go unless it's a trade. Collins is pretty much in a similar boat although with a max offersheet it's possible at least.

Ignoring that stuff, it's going to take any rookie who comes here some time to reach their potential. It's an extremely dangerous game banking on them to be that guy within 2 years and going full steam ahead in building a team. If that guy doesn't live up to his potential then you are back in the same position you are currently in 2 or 3 years.

1 year stealth tanks are for teams that already have that star player, fast tracking it when you have a bunch of nickels, dimes and quarters is a recipe for disaster.


If you want to do a 2 year tank you’d need to trade pascal and Fred too. We’re not getting a top 10 pick next year if they’re still here imo. And if you strip the team that much you’re looking at a much longer tank than 2 years. It’s essentially a full rebuild which takes like 5 years.

If we offer 25mil per year for Allen I doubt Brooklyn matches it. Yes it’s an over pay but it’s for a position we need and we have money available.

I’d rather be a 5-8 seed with a young developing core than stripping the team fully and waiting 5 years to maybe be a top team. You can always trade pascal for a disgruntled superstar in the future.

I’m not only talking about Cade or Suggs. Anyone in the top 5 would be fine. If we draft Mobley you go after oladipo in free agency.

Fvv
Oladipo
OG
Pascal
Mobley
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#777 » by PrinceAli » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:40 pm

NotMyKawhi wrote:I'd look to acquire another 1st round pick, no matter where it falls!


the sleepers of the 2021 will be the G-league guys. No one talks abt them. the lower guys especially. Green and Kuminga will prolly stay top 5 no matter what


But nix, Todd and even a guy like kai sotto. They're getting nba training going up against way better talent than NCAA players. Amir Johnson is on their team. He's a vet who can teach them more than most in NCAA imo

Yeah I hope we can get a later first round pick too in some deal. There’s quite a bit of interesting prospects in that range that can be quality role players for us
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#778 » by tdotrep2 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:48 pm

if we can get thybulle and say the 20th pick for kyle in this draft someone will fall to 20. thats a good package imo
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#779 » by Van_Trump » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:26 pm

Well, not waiting for Harden, that's for sure.
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Re: Tank World Order 

Post#780 » by C-R-E-A-M- » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:46 pm

team is scaring me. I dont think we're bad enough to lose to the trash tier teams. all of our losses are close games to .500 teams except the boston game.

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