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Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth

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Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#1 » by gbball » Tue Jan 5, 2021 4:30 am

I think we need to focus less on winning now and more on letting the young guys get some run and figure things out.

Coming into the season I wanted to compete, especially after we came so close last season. Still do, but I think we should see what we have with our young players at this point and live with the results. Our top roster is pretty flawed as currently constructed and we've committed money to players in Pascal and OG who still need to figure things out. Additionally, we have some interesting bench pieces in Flynn, Yuta, Thomas, Boucher and Davis who aren't getting a lot of time.

If we want an unpredictable offense, why not do the hockey change to throw other teams off with a different look/playstyle? Our bench guys seem a lot more dynamic offensively.

Realistically, we're not contenders this year. We're probably not getting any marquee free agents in the offseason and I don't know that a Harden trade makes a difference in contending considering what we'd have to give up.

I'm not into tanking per se, but if we use this as a year to develop our young guys and potentially trade a guy like Lowry to a contender (if that's what he wants) or keep him to maintain the culture and as a mentor for the young guys, we can be a completely different team as soon as next year when the team is back in Toronto with fans back (hopefully).

I said it early on that this year has given me eerie vibes of the 1997-98 season when the Raptors were expected to take the next step, but we ended up starting the season 1-17. https://www.landofbasketball.com/results_by_team/1997_1998_raptors.htm

Isiah Thomas resigned as president of the team after not getting an ownership stake, Stoudemire demanded a trade, Tmac was a rookie in the coach's doghouse and the coach quit the team. It was by far the most dysfunctional and painful season I ever experienced as a Raptors fan. But then in the draft, we ended up getting Vince Carter (the most dynamic player this team has ever had). It looks like this draft has a few players of his caliber at the top.

Also, on top of that, back in 1998, teams only had 3 years of control of rookies and then they became unrestricted free agents. Now, you can expect at least 4/5 years of control, but likely more.

I don't think we'll be as bad as 97/98 to start, but I can see 1-9 or something similar if things don't turn around soon. The infighting and lack of spirit is already evident. This has been compounded by Nurse's win-now approach, which has left fans scratching their heads with regards to lineups and rotations. At least in tonight's game there was a bit of intrigue as to what the young guys could do. But, instead of easing Flynn into the NBA by giving him a few minutes in games out of the gate, he let the pressure on him build and threw him out there in a high stakes situation. I'm sure he'll be fine, but it's a tough spot to put your rookie in when things could have been handled differently.

Again, I'm not for tanking, but if you come by the losses honestly, it's not a bad idea to be bad when there's a good draft class.

Watching young, promising players figure it out is something that you can sell your fans. And if they start winning, all the better.
This is also why I wanted us to take another look at Bruno, since he too is a project with late-blooming potential if he can get some playing time. Once Gasol/Ibaka, left, I figured we'd take a step back...so why not get a player with some untapped potential. OG and Siakam are also projects in my opinion, so while their struggles are frustrating...you still don't know what they are yet, so I'll accept it.

Disappointment is a function of expectations. If we expect to win it all again this year, we'll probably be disappointed. But if we instead expect to see growth from our young players and see how good they can improve going forward, the year will be a lot more interesting.

To reiterate, I want us to compete and try to win, but please keep integrating the young players so that they can get some experience as well.

I know a lot of people are already on this wavelength, but I think there are some new fans who expect us to go to the conference finals every year. What triggered this post from me was seeing how good this draft class actually looks, plus seeing us play in Tampa in front of a bunch of the other team's fans is pretty lame. It's going to be like that all season unless we can somehow come back to Toronto...but it seems like the year is pretty much a write-off. So if you're with me, spread some positivity and focus on the growth of our young guys this year instead of trashing our players on Twitter. It could end up being a long season, and it'd be best to focus on the positives.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#2 » by KidDynamit » Tue Jan 5, 2021 4:36 am

Trade Siakam
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#3 » by Drygon » Tue Jan 5, 2021 11:16 am

gbball wrote:Isiah Thomas resigned as president of the team after not getting an ownership stake, Stoudemire demanded a trade, Tmac was a rookie in the coach's doghouse and the coach quit the team. It was by far the most dysfunctional and painful season I ever experienced as a Raptors fan. But then in the draft, we ended up getting Vince Carter (the most dynamic player this team has ever had).


It says nothing how good someone is. Young JR Smith was an phenomenal athlete, but he was nothing more than a role player.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#4 » by gbball » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:21 pm

Everything here still applies...

The team of late seems to be getting back to where they were last year, but we're still on the wrong end of the bounces and have been losing games we're accustomed to winning.

Unless there's an injury or trade I can't see us being bottom 5 bad this year. But it might be just as good to be a play-in team for the playoffs... That way we get a chance to compete in the playoffs with possibly no fans and no real homecourt advantage, plus we get a mid-first-round pick. Where hopefully we can find a Giannis/Kahwi/Donovan Mitchell type prospect.

I'm still cool with the losses, but I don't want us to chase them. If we end up bottom 5 and keep most of our core intact, we can be a drastically different team next year. If Lowry requests a trade I think we should do it. I'd also be cool with a Powell trade if it can make us better. I've had high hopes for him, but I think I'm ready to see him for what he is at this point. An athletic guard who can shoot a bit, but makes questionable decisions and doesn't finish with much consistency or creativity around the rim when contested.

I've been very encouraged by what Siakam is doing so far this year. IMO, his last 4 games have been better than anything I saw from him last year in terms of sustainability. His quickness at his size is too much for anyone in the NBA to handle provided he can continue to play under control as he has. He's taking a step that I wasn't sure he would be able to. I'm not worried about his development. If he can find his form from 3 again. He'll be dangerous. It'll probably take him another 2 years to fully get his whole game polished and well integrated. But so far so good. The struggles don't break him. He's just getting better.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#5 » by blastttOFF » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:15 pm

You win some you dim sum
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#6 » by ATLTimekeeper » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:06 pm

They appear to have the pieces to make another bench mob

Len = Poeltl
Boucher = Siakam
Matt Thomas = CJ Miles
Norm = Delon
Flynn = Fred

What's happening now is Nurse just rides bench players until they stop scoring, and then overplays his starters until they become mistake prone and lazy. We end up losing. Just scale back their minutes and throw out an energy squad.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#7 » by jimmy keys » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:07 pm

gbball wrote:Everything here still applies...

The team of late seems to be getting back to where they were last year, but we're still on the wrong end of the bounces and have been losing games we're accustomed to winning.

Unless there's an injury or trade I can't see us being bottom 5 bad this year. But it might be just as good to be a play-in team for the playoffs... That way we get a chance to compete in the playoffs with possibly no fans and no real homecourt advantage, plus we get a mid-first-round pick. Where hopefully we can find a Giannis/Kahwi/Donovan Mitchell type prospect.

I'm still cool with the losses, but I don't want us to chase them. If we end up bottom 5 and keep most of our core intact, we can be a drastically different team next year. If Lowry requests a trade I think we should do it. I'd also be cool with a Powell trade if it can make us better. I've had high hopes for him, but I think I'm ready to see him for what he is at this point. An athletic guard who can shoot a bit, but makes questionable decisions and doesn't finish with much consistency or creativity around the rim when contested.

I've been very encouraged by what Siakam is doing so far this year. IMO, his last 4 games have been better than anything I saw from him last year in terms of sustainability. His quickness at his size is too much for anyone in the NBA to handle provided he can continue to play under control as he has. He's taking a step that I wasn't sure he would be able to. I'm not worried about his development. If he can find his form from 3 again. He'll be dangerous. It'll probably take him another 2 years to fully get his whole game polished and well integrated. But so far so good. The struggles don't break him. He's just getting better.


We'll be in the bottom 8 in the league book it. The team looks beat down & depleted. If they're 4-16 or 5-15 after 20 they'll start throwing in the towel on the season. And it would be the best thing for them moving forward. Bottom 8 lands you a 1/4 chance at a top 4 pick. That's good enough for me. They should also trade Lowry regardless of him requesting it or not.

Core moving forward: Siakam - OG - Vanvleet & (Green, Cunningham or Suggs) would be great.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#8 » by Indeed » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:05 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:They appear to have the pieces to make another bench mob

Len = Poeltl
Boucher = Siakam
Matt Thomas = CJ Miles
Norm = Delon
Flynn = Fred

What's happening now is Nurse just rides bench players until they stop scoring, and then overplays his starters until they become mistake prone and lazy. We end up losing. Just scale back their minutes and throw out an energy squad.


Lack of ball handling and passing from the above lineup will create a lot of turnovers. Unless our starters can score a lot with buffers, otherwise, we might dig ourselves into a big hole. Flynn is definitely not someone who can create for himself or other, and Powell has as much turnovers than passes.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#9 » by Duffman100 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:25 pm

Agreed.

Flynn, Watson, Yuta, Thomas, Davis

Spend this season on trying to find out who is going be valuable bench contributors in the coming seasons.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#10 » by ATLTimekeeper » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:20 pm

Indeed wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:They appear to have the pieces to make another bench mob

Len = Poeltl
Boucher = Siakam
Matt Thomas = CJ Miles
Norm = Delon
Flynn = Fred

What's happening now is Nurse just rides bench players until they stop scoring, and then overplays his starters until they become mistake prone and lazy. We end up losing. Just scale back their minutes and throw out an energy squad.


Lack of ball handling and passing from the above lineup will create a lot of turnovers. Unless our starters can score a lot with buffers, otherwise, we might dig ourselves into a big hole. Flynn is definitely not someone who can create for himself or other, and Powell has as much turnovers than passes.


To a degree, but you have to go back to where those players were at in the initial bench mob. Siakam did carry the ball up, but he wasn't a creator. Delon was a better decision-maker and ballhandler than Norm, but not nearly the threat to score. That team just caused chaos on defense and ran on offense. Offensively they really lived and died with CJ Miles, and he was streakier than Matt Thomas has proven to be so far.

imo it doesn't really matter if Nurse opts for Yuta or Davis or Stanley Johnson off the bench, like there's one guy that's going to play consistently. The ball is still ending up in tired starters' hands and they end up throwing the games away.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#11 » by ItsDanger » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:41 pm

I want to see what Watson can do with decent minutes for at least 8-10 games this season. Not looking good though.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#12 » by Indeed » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:45 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Indeed wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:They appear to have the pieces to make another bench mob

Len = Poeltl
Boucher = Siakam
Matt Thomas = CJ Miles
Norm = Delon
Flynn = Fred

What's happening now is Nurse just rides bench players until they stop scoring, and then overplays his starters until they become mistake prone and lazy. We end up losing. Just scale back their minutes and throw out an energy squad.


Lack of ball handling and passing from the above lineup will create a lot of turnovers. Unless our starters can score a lot with buffers, otherwise, we might dig ourselves into a big hole. Flynn is definitely not someone who can create for himself or other, and Powell has as much turnovers than passes.


To a degree, but you have to go back to where those players were at in the initial bench mob. Siakam did carry the ball up, but he wasn't a creator. Delon was a better decision-maker and ballhandler than Norm, but not nearly the threat to score. That team just caused chaos on defense and ran on offense. Offensively they really lived and died with CJ Miles, and he was streakier than Matt Thomas has proven to be so far.

imo it doesn't really matter if Nurse opts for Yuta or Davis or Stanley Johnson off the bench, like there's one guy that's going to play consistently. The ball is still ending up in tired starters' hands and they end up throwing the games away.


Back then VanVleet was the one who bailed out a lot of scoring. The new lineup has no one capable of doing that. The closest would be Davis, and you don't have him on the lineup.

The roster needs to be addressed before we go for the hockey lineup, right now it is just not feasible with less mobile Len or lack of SF/PF.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#13 » by Psubs » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:35 pm

After the draft it could be the Bench Mobley's!

PG Flynn - Harris
SG Thomas - Harris
SF TD
PF Yuta
C Mobley

YESSSSSSSS!
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#14 » by Pooh_Jeter » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:49 pm

This team actually has to get some high ceiling young talent to have much of anything.

Boucher and Norm given their age/contract situations should be trade bait.

Yuta, Stanley, Len, Watson, and Thomas are completely replaceable players you can find on the scrap heap every year.

Flynn and TD are the only guys who have a real shot at being rotation players on a legitimately good team. TD is overrated by Raptors fans to boot.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#15 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:50 pm

KidDynamit wrote:Trade Siakam


:lol:

love the simple one phrase answer to a whole long ass about something i haven't read because i skipped to the bottom and was disappointed there was no TL;DR section.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#16 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:53 pm

Pooh_Jeter wrote:This team actually has to get some high ceiling young talent to have much of anything.

Boucher and Norm given their age/contract situations should be trade bait.

Yuta, Stanley, Len, Watson, and Thomas are completely replaceable players you can find on the scrap heap every year.

Flynn and TD are the only guys who have a real shot at being rotation players on a legitimately good team. TD is overrated by Raptors fans to boot.


agreed. I think Siakam and FVV have reached their ceilings on what type of players they are going to be in the league moving forward and its definitely not superstar. they are great option 2 and 3 you need, to surround a true franchise player.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#17 » by Psubs » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:58 pm

Pooh_Jeter wrote:This team actually has to get some high ceiling young talent to have much of anything.

Boucher and Norm given their age/contract situations should be trade bait.

Yuta, Stanley, Len, Watson, and Thomas are completely replaceable players you can find on the scrap heap every year.

Flynn and TD are the only guys who have a real shot at being rotation players on a legitimately good team. TD is overrated by Raptors fans to boot.


TD is shooting 46/40/100. He was 45/39/87 last season, seems pretty good. His defense needs more discipline but it's his 2nd year.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#18 » by Pooh_Jeter » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:01 pm

Psubs wrote:
Pooh_Jeter wrote:This team actually has to get some high ceiling young talent to have much of anything.

Boucher and Norm given their age/contract situations should be trade bait.

Yuta, Stanley, Len, Watson, and Thomas are completely replaceable players you can find on the scrap heap every year.

Flynn and TD are the only guys who have a real shot at being rotation players on a legitimately good team. TD is overrated by Raptors fans to boot.


TD is shooting 46/40/100. He was 45/39/87 last season, seems pretty good. His defense needs more discipline but it's his 2nd year.


When the chips were down, Nurse didn't trust TD to even play. It's not just his defense, his overall BBIQ is lacking. I think he can still be a solid rotation piece, but you had people calling him a baby TMac last year. Basically every team in the league has 1 or 2 guys like him.
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Re: Bench Mob 2.0 - win some/lose some, but focus on growth 

Post#19 » by Psubs » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:05 am

Pooh_Jeter wrote:
Psubs wrote:
Pooh_Jeter wrote:This team actually has to get some high ceiling young talent to have much of anything.

Boucher and Norm given their age/contract situations should be trade bait.

Yuta, Stanley, Len, Watson, and Thomas are completely replaceable players you can find on the scrap heap every year.

Flynn and TD are the only guys who have a real shot at being rotation players on a legitimately good team. TD is overrated by Raptors fans to boot.


TD is shooting 46/40/100. He was 45/39/87 last season, seems pretty good. His defense needs more discipline but it's his 2nd year.


When the chips were down, Nurse didn't trust TD to even play. It's not just his defense, his overall BBIQ is lacking. I think he can still be a solid rotation piece, but you had people calling him a baby TMac last year. Basically every team in the league has 1 or 2 guys like him.


He's like Powell that isn't a complete black hole.
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