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A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what?

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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#121 » by TorontoRapsFan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:09 am

Steelo Green wrote:
planetmars wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:So what do you want then? 8 seed and getting swept by the Nets in the 1st round? Cause that’s there we’d be headed if we don’t tank


15th pick in the draft can be pretty good.. that's where Kawhi and Giannis were drafted.

And for every Giannis and Kawhi there are 95% of the NBAs finals MVPs who are lottery picks.


Only 2 teams can be said to have won championships through the Draft after the Jordan Bulls. The spurs, and the Warriors. Both organizations can be said to have done it because of scouting, development and that lucky lotto draft pick. Neither got it done by being a tanking organization, a multi year bottom feeding team. This has been discussed to obscene lengths here. Why do you all have such fish for brains memories. Why do you all keep harping the same nonsense. What you all argue is baseless while talking about how something doesn't make the rule.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#122 » by TorontoRapsFan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:18 am

When a team is faced with what the Raptors are faced with, a closed window, a possibility of being a treadmill team, the most important area to succeed in becomes all about the organization. Succeed where you can, player development, player relations, scouting department, coaching, front office personnel and fan relations. You do this until some luck happens and your team becomes relevant again. When tanking and losing you're not increasing the chances of getting lucky cause you happen to hit on a generational player. You're just making it so even if you hit on a generational player chances are the team will suck so much that they'd still end up not winning a championship because your organization sucks *ss. Sure if we were a FA destination, fine. Maybe tank and get lucky and clear cap and sign all star help for the guy. But we're not. Even Cleveland didn't win with LBJ the first time around.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#123 » by metafisical » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:26 am

The moral of the story is that we need to tank. I took a quick poll and 99% of all Raps fans support a tank.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#124 » by Brinbe » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:36 am

fall back and wait. we're lucky we got our chip
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#125 » by Chandan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:02 am

Indeed wrote:
Inevitable wrote:Brooklyn’s acquisition of the Harden trade will mean we now have to compete against a very dangerous KD/Harden and Kyrie (maybe) all in their prime core for at least two more seasons along with a Philly team that’s clicking and a good young team in Boston. This is clearly the most competition we have had in our team history. We are 2-8 and haven’t even faced the cream of the crop on the NBA yet. It seems like at best we are cemented as a non HCA team if things go best case scenario for us we would be lucky to steal a couple games in the first round. Then we go into the off season with a bad pick outside the lottery, and a bunch of cap space with a very weak free agency class.

This is an incredibly good draft possibly the best in years, I am trying to understand the rationale of ‘competing’, it’s not like 2013-2014 when we had very little success and wanted to change the culture so it made perfect sense to not tank after the bad start. Right now we’ve reached the top, and know it takes superstar talent to win it all. We can’t do that through free agency, we are relying on trades and the draft. Problem with trades is we have to pretty much gut our roster to acquire one or provide tons of draft compensation which is something I assume Masai doesn’t want to do. So what now?


How certain you are that we will end up with a superstar even with a 1st overall pick?
How certain you are that it will be enough to have this one superstar?
How certain you are that Boston and Philadephia who built from the draft are better than Miami and Brooklyn who built from the trades?

I think we win our championship through trades, should we first look into trading our expiring for something first?
I think the rationale of "competing" is to develop the mental side of our players, where some potential superstar lacked that and never became superstar.


I am totally fine with the team trying to win. It's their job after all. Nobody wants them to go out there and start throwing games. The players, the coach, nor management should do it out of respect for the game.

that said, even for a team in the midst of a great run, it should still find a balance between gushing out wins counting on veterans and developing talents. In a year like this, under special circumstances, our team hitting the low cycle after the championship, we should concentrate on developing our rookies, sophomore more, and if we lose more in the process, so be it.

A year of tank doesn't mean lose as much as possible,
tanking for fans is just a mentality that says "we recognize this year is growth pain, and it's all for maximized return in assets. We embrace the process"
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#126 » by fbalmeida » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:12 pm

Sizing this all up, the Nets indeed become an absolute force for the next 3 or 4 years, but it'll all come down to chemistry, Irving's sanity, defense, coaching, and intangibles.
The Pacers moving Dipo for LeVert is a fantastic simple move that sets the stage for the next three playoff runs.
The Celtics will be good with anything they pad around Brown and Tatum.
Diddo for the 76ers with Embiid, Harris, and Simmons.

Nets, Bucks, Celtics, 76ers, and even the Pacers, as currently constructed, are likely appropriating themselves of the top five seeds in the East, while the Raptors and Heat likely remain in the conversation on a lower rung to round out what is now a tougher Eastern conference.

During the Lowry - DeRozan era, we were typically among the top of a relatively weak East. We went all in in 2019 and punched out a glorious championship. Now things are different: we're facing a decidedly tougher set of competition for the next 3 or 4 years. There's definitely a different angle here for the Raptors going forward.

Nevertheless, we're in good position cap-wise to eventually add a 4th player to the Fred-OG-Pascal trio and field a team that can indeed compete on equal footing with the Celtics, 76ers, and Pacers, if the Nets and Bucks indeed play out as the top tier.

I wouldn't bet against Masai, Webster, and Nurse out-maneuvering the competition, placing us among the East's top 4 again. Adding Dipo, Collins, or Beal, who has a player option in 2022, or LaVine, is still perfectly possible. That in tandem with a still ascendant Siakam, who like many other players who came late to basketball, is unlikely to mentally piece his physical gifts, and peak, before his 30th birthday.

Ultimately, considering our astute management of cap space, assets, development, and coaching competence, I'd say that the probability of us being successful in the East, with Masai adding what is lacking within the next two or three off-seasons, is still greater than the compounded probability of:

  • the team playing as bad as needed to maximize the recently flattened lottery chances
  • indeed landing a top lottery pick
  • waiting two to three seasons for that rookie to develop
  • banking on said development to unfold into a franchise player

As a Raptors fan, I remember getting endlessly ridiculed for saying that tanking for Wiggins was a completely idiotic idea. As a Leafs fan, I can recall the exact same thing about the bafflingly moronic death-wish of tanking for Magnus Paajarvi back in the day. Etc. etc.

I'm not going to be bullish on this forum about my hatred for the glee with which so many otherwise well-meaning fans think tanking is a good idea and the only desirable alternative to fielding a top-tier competitive team. I've learned with age to just let dumb ideas play themselves out and let father time point out their folly at a glacier-like pace.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#127 » by Chandan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:45 pm

Dalek wrote:I look at last year and the team that made the Finals was Miami. They don't have tons of lottery picks or MVP talent, just gritty guys who are well-coached. Their centering force is Butler and Bam.

Toronto has Siakam and he needs someone else to step-up with him. The team is a couple players away but they have a good battle tested core that is committed to two-way play and a good culture overall. They can be the next Miami in one offseason.


let's face it. nobody is really worried about Miami. They aren't really a title threat no matter how gritty Jimmy is.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#128 » by rapstarter » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:05 pm

TorontoRapsFan wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:
planetmars wrote:
15th pick in the draft can be pretty good.. that's where Kawhi and Giannis were drafted.

And for every Giannis and Kawhi there are 95% of the NBAs finals MVPs who are lottery picks.


Only 2 teams can be said to have won championships through the Draft after the Jordan Bulls. The spurs, and the Warriors. Both organizations can be said to have done it because of scouting, development and that lucky lotto draft pick. Neither got it done by being a tanking organization, a multi year bottom feeding team. This has been discussed to obscene lengths here. Why do you all have such fish for brains memories. Why do you all keep harping the same nonsense. What you all argue is baseless while talking about how something doesn't make the rule.


Add Hakeem's Rockets and Dirk's Mavs (who effectively drafted Dirk). And we have a lot more in common with Chicago, Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and early 2010s Golden State than the likes of the the Lakers and the Heat because we can't attract big name FAs like the latter two. (Even then LA and Miami obtained superstars in Kobe and Wade though drafts).

The common theme, with the Detroit Pistons being the only exception, is that you need a superstar (and these days superstarS) to win in this league. How do you obtain a superstar when you are not one of the desired teams? By accumulating assets. What's the easiest and most likely way of doing that when you can't sign stars via FA? Through drafts. What having a top pick means is that it makes scouting and development a lot easier and we don't have to depend as much on being lucky w a lotto draft pick.

What is nonsense is your notion that having a better draft pick is somehow a detriment to winning championships because of some past champions who were able to sign Shaq/KD/LeBron (when that's not possible for us). Having a higher draft pick is inherently better than having a lower pick. Now, some (quite ridiculous) people will point out that Kawhi was a 15th pick and not a top 5 pick as if that proves anything, but if you really wanted Kawhi (who's the only non-lotto #1 man to have lead teams to championships), you could have theoretically traded a top 5 pick for a late lotto and other assets.

No one's arguing for us to be a multi year bottom feeding team. We had a terrible start in a season where there are multiple teams miles better than us in our division alone. With no fans in attendance and a very good draft coming up, there's been no campaign that makes more sense for tanking for a swing at that top-level prospect/asset.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#129 » by TorontoRapsFan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:22 pm

rapstarter wrote:
TorontoRapsFan wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:And for every Giannis and Kawhi there are 95% of the NBAs finals MVPs who are lottery picks.


Only 2 teams can be said to have won championships through the Draft after the Jordan Bulls. The spurs, and the Warriors. Both organizations can be said to have done it because of scouting, development and that lucky lotto draft pick. Neither got it done by being a tanking organization, a multi year bottom feeding team. This has been discussed to obscene lengths here. Why do you all have such fish for brains memories. Why do you all keep harping the same nonsense. What you all argue is baseless while talking about how something doesn't make the rule.


Add Hakeem's Rockets and Dirk's Mavs (who effectively drafted Dirk). And we have a lot more in common with Chicago, Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and early 2010s Golden State than the likes of the the Lakers and the Heat because we can't attract big name FAs like the latter two. (Even then LA and Miami obtained superstars in Kobe and Wade though drafts).

The common theme, with the Detroit Pistons being the only exception, is that you need a superstar (and these days superstarS) to win in this league. How do you obtain a superstar when you are not one of the desired teams? By accumulating assets. What's the easiest and most likely way of doing that when you can't sign stars via FA? Through drafts. What having a top pick means is that it makes scouting and development a lot easier and we don't have to depend as much on a "lucky lotto draft pick".

What is nonsense is your notion that having a better draft pick is somehow a detriment to winning championships because of some past champions who were able to sign Shaq/KD/LeBron when that's not possible for us. Having a higher draft pick is inherently better than having a lower pick.

No one's arguing for us to be a multi year bottom feeding team. We had a terrible start in a season where there are multiple teams miles better than us in our division alone. With no fans in attendance and a very good draft coming up, there's been no campaign that makes more sense for tanking for a swing at that top-level prospect/asset.


I'm not going to say anything about Hakeem's Rockets. The Mavs didn't get Dirk and their championship because they were a tanking team. The point is tank or not you need to be lucky as far as drafting that superstar, as well as other things. And to add to that, Spurs are one team that became a contender through draft because of having Manu, Duncan, and Parker. GSW got there through the draft because of Curry, Klay and Draymond. They didn't get there because of all those years they sucked. The point is two teams can say they got their championship core from the draft. None of those teams got those players because they were what's considered a 'tanking' team. Tanking teams have continually been garbage teams. No exception in the last 20 years. The closest one is the Cavs when they tanked for LBJ and they won only because LBJ was a hometown player who came back to them after he was done with the Heat.

Tanking teams tend to become bottom feeding teams because they depend on young players drafted in the lottery to come together and become winners in a losing environment. The norm is that this doesn't happen. Then teams either become treadmills with borderline all stars, or lose players to free agency and finances, or make trades that don't pan out. Teams that sell off assets and become successful usually do it because they get picks that they then manage to flip for more proven players. Again, not tanking and betting on every top pick being a superstar, when the reality is those players tend to end up falling short and a team that didn't give up but ended up with the 13th pick ends up picking a player that thrives and puts them into contention.

Tanking and asset management are different things. You don't trade Lowry for example because you want to start losing. You trade him because you don't think he'll resign next year and you're no longer in the playoff hunt. You don't trade Siakam or OG or Fred because you don't think they can get you a championship and you'd rather bet on a bunch of kids that have never played an NBA game yet. You trade them for proper assets not just gambling on somehow it all magically coming together after putting out a losing team for 5 years.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#130 » by rapstarter » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:37 pm

TorontoRapsFan wrote:
rapstarter wrote:
TorontoRapsFan wrote:
Only 2 teams can be said to have won championships through the Draft after the Jordan Bulls. The spurs, and the Warriors. Both organizations can be said to have done it because of scouting, development and that lucky lotto draft pick. Neither got it done by being a tanking organization, a multi year bottom feeding team. This has been discussed to obscene lengths here. Why do you all have such fish for brains memories. Why do you all keep harping the same nonsense. What you all argue is baseless while talking about how something doesn't make the rule.


Add Hakeem's Rockets and Dirk's Mavs (who effectively drafted Dirk). And we have a lot more in common with Chicago, Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and early 2010s Golden State than the likes of the the Lakers and the Heat because we can't attract big name FAs like the latter two. (Even then LA and Miami obtained superstars in Kobe and Wade though drafts).

The common theme, with the Detroit Pistons being the only exception, is that you need a superstar (and these days superstarS) to win in this league. How do you obtain a superstar when you are not one of the desired teams? By accumulating assets. What's the easiest and most likely way of doing that when you can't sign stars via FA? Through drafts. What having a top pick means is that it makes scouting and development a lot easier and we don't have to depend as much on a "lucky lotto draft pick".

What is nonsense is your notion that having a better draft pick is somehow a detriment to winning championships because of some past champions who were able to sign Shaq/KD/LeBron when that's not possible for us. Having a higher draft pick is inherently better than having a lower pick.

No one's arguing for us to be a multi year bottom feeding team. We had a terrible start in a season where there are multiple teams miles better than us in our division alone. With no fans in attendance and a very good draft coming up, there's been no campaign that makes more sense for tanking for a swing at that top-level prospect/asset.


I'm not going to say anything about Hakeem's Rockets. The Mavs didn't get Dirk and their championship because they were a tanking team. The point is tank or not you need to be lucky as far as drafting that superstar, as well as other things. And to add to that, Spurs are one team that became a contender through draft because of having Manu, Duncan, and Parker. GSW got there through the draft because of Curry, Klay and Draymond. They didn't get there because of all those years they sucked. The point is two teams can say they got their championship core from the draft. None of those teams got those players because they were what's considered a 'tanking' team. Tanking teams have continually been garbage teams. No exception in the last 20 years. The closest one is the Cavs when they tanked for LBJ and they won only because LBJ was a hometown player who came back to them after he was done with the Heat.

Tanking teams tend to become bottom feeding teams because they depend on young players drafted in the lottery to come together and become winners in a losing environment. The norm is that this doesn't happen. Then teams either become treadmills with borderline all stars, or lose players to free agency and finances, or make trades that don't pan out. Teams that sell off assets and become successful usually do it because they get picks that they then manage to flip for more proven players. Again, not tanking and betting on every top pick being a superstar, when the reality is those players tend to end up falling short and a team that didn't give up but ended up with the 13th pick ends up picking a player that thrives and puts them into contention.


And my entire point is that it's easier to be "lucky" drafting a superstar when you have a higher draft pick. Sure you may be able to draft a Kawhi at #15 every decade or so, but you know what also allows you to draft the same Kawhi in a draft? A #1 overall pick, which is a significantly more valuable asset than the #15 (for the sole reason that it's easier to be "lucky" with it).

It's not important to me at all that Dallas weren't a tanking team when they drafted Dirk. It is important to me that tanking would have guaranteed a chance at Dirk and possibly more assets instead of having to hope he drops to your position or trade more assets for him.

Hell, if you had the #1 overall pick in the 2009 draft, you could have traded down for the picks that could end up as Curry, Klay and Draymond.

Many times, tanking teams became bottom feeding teams because those teams had poor management. We don't have that problem and we are actually good at developing talents now. I have the trust in this management that we won't draft a Marvin Bagley over a Luka Doncic if given the chance. That kind of **** is what keeps bottom feeding teams at the bottom for years, not the fact that they had multiple top picks. Also, you think one season of tanking (instead of being a treadmill one which is where we are headed) will destroy this championship culture that was already destroyed when Kawhi left with it?
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#131 » by Raptaz » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:20 pm

As a fan I leave all this worry you guys seem to have on your mind lile your job is on the line

What now ? Let our young guys figure out to play against 3 superstars this hopefully will help them develop even further.

Yall stress in a pandemic will lead to unhealthy outcomes

We are fans, sit back, relax and enjoy whatever happens on the court


Why ? WHY stress yourself out for things you cannot control, or trying to convince other fans the right strategy.


Keep talking about tank, how about talk some basketball instead , if the raps lose and end up bottom 5 there is already a thread for top prospects.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#132 » by M3tro » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:24 pm

Now we try to out-tank the Knicks.

That's a tough goal to accomplish.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#133 » by canz55 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:25 pm

Steelo Green wrote:
KrazyP wrote:This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.
You just exposed yourself with this post imo.

That's a comment I'd expect from a child.

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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#134 » by TorontoRapsFan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:33 pm

rapstarter wrote:
TorontoRapsFan wrote:
rapstarter wrote:
Add Hakeem's Rockets and Dirk's Mavs (who effectively drafted Dirk). And we have a lot more in common with Chicago, Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and early 2010s Golden State than the likes of the the Lakers and the Heat because we can't attract big name FAs like the latter two. (Even then LA and Miami obtained superstars in Kobe and Wade though drafts).

The common theme, with the Detroit Pistons being the only exception, is that you need a superstar (and these days superstarS) to win in this league. How do you obtain a superstar when you are not one of the desired teams? By accumulating assets. What's the easiest and most likely way of doing that when you can't sign stars via FA? Through drafts. What having a top pick means is that it makes scouting and development a lot easier and we don't have to depend as much on a "lucky lotto draft pick".

What is nonsense is your notion that having a better draft pick is somehow a detriment to winning championships because of some past champions who were able to sign Shaq/KD/LeBron when that's not possible for us. Having a higher draft pick is inherently better than having a lower pick.

No one's arguing for us to be a multi year bottom feeding team. We had a terrible start in a season where there are multiple teams miles better than us in our division alone. With no fans in attendance and a very good draft coming up, there's been no campaign that makes more sense for tanking for a swing at that top-level prospect/asset.


I'm not going to say anything about Hakeem's Rockets. The Mavs didn't get Dirk and their championship because they were a tanking team. The point is tank or not you need to be lucky as far as drafting that superstar, as well as other things. And to add to that, Spurs are one team that became a contender through draft because of having Manu, Duncan, and Parker. GSW got there through the draft because of Curry, Klay and Draymond. They didn't get there because of all those years they sucked. The point is two teams can say they got their championship core from the draft. None of those teams got those players because they were what's considered a 'tanking' team. Tanking teams have continually been garbage teams. No exception in the last 20 years. The closest one is the Cavs when they tanked for LBJ and they won only because LBJ was a hometown player who came back to them after he was done with the Heat.

Tanking teams tend to become bottom feeding teams because they depend on young players drafted in the lottery to come together and become winners in a losing environment. The norm is that this doesn't happen. Then teams either become treadmills with borderline all stars, or lose players to free agency and finances, or make trades that don't pan out. Teams that sell off assets and become successful usually do it because they get picks that they then manage to flip for more proven players. Again, not tanking and betting on every top pick being a superstar, when the reality is those players tend to end up falling short and a team that didn't give up but ended up with the 13th pick ends up picking a player that thrives and puts them into contention.


And my entire point is that it's easier to be "lucky" drafting a superstar when you have a higher draft pick. Sure you may be able to draft a Kawhi at #15 every decade or so, but you know what also allows you to draft the same Kawhi in a draft? A #1 overall pick, which is a significantly more valuable asset than the #15 (for the sole reason that it's easier to be "lucky" with it).

It's not important to me at all that Dallas weren't a tanking team when they drafted Dirk. It is important to me that tanking would have guaranteed a chance at Dirk and possibly more assets instead of having to hope he drops to your position or trade more assets for him.

Hell, if you had the #1 overall pick in the 2009 draft, you could have traded down for the picks that could end up as Curry, Klay and Draymond.

Many times, tanking teams became bottom feeding teams because those teams had poor management. We don't have that problem and we are actually good at developing talents now. I have the trust in this management that we won't draft a Marvin Bagley over a Luka Doncic if given the chance. That kind of **** is what keeps bottom feeding teams at the bottom for years, not the fact that they had multiple top picks. Also, you think one season of tanking (instead of being a treadmill one which is where we are headed) will destroy this championship culture that was already destroyed when Kawhi left with it?


Losing one year isn't my point. My point is you don't tank a season period. You try. You make your players go out there and have them try to win every game for now. You don't let them feel like you're treating the season as a lost one because they are 2-9 right now. You don't sacrifice games at this point for the sake of developing your bench players, making your starters sit there put up with losing. And you don't sacrifice your better players in a sell off for the sake of making the rest of the players on your team go through losing so you can draft number 3. When you're 5-24 then you can say ok Kyle, what are the chances you want to come back next year when we retool with a pick and a FA. When you've got 10 games left then you tell your starters 'guys it was great that you all tried game in game out but wink wink and your minutes are cut, and you can sit out this game'. That's how you end up being a team that has a bad year, drafts a lotto pick, maybe becomes Dirk or Kobe, and is back into playoffs again next year while that player develops in a winning culture.

The way people talk about 'tanking' isn't about the fact that we are most likely going to end up with a pretty bad record this year. One or two injuries and we can easily end up like GS last year. Hey no problem. What people want here when they say tanking, is to be losers. That doesn't work. When an organization sacrifices winning, and their players who wear their uniform game in game out, early in the season, they will most likely tailspin into becoming perpetual losers. And yes, losing is contagious and let your players take on that role and it will tailspin. Then you ends doing what's done by a lot of teams who aren't outright tanking, just being bottom feeders satisfied with losing, usually, for the sake of not spending any more because the team wasn't winning the year before and hoping they'll end up with a high lotto pick and a special player they can make money off of.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#135 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:07 pm

TorontoRapsFan wrote:
rapstarter wrote:
TorontoRapsFan wrote:
I'm not going to say anything about Hakeem's Rockets. The Mavs didn't get Dirk and their championship because they were a tanking team. The point is tank or not you need to be lucky as far as drafting that superstar, as well as other things. And to add to that, Spurs are one team that became a contender through draft because of having Manu, Duncan, and Parker. GSW got there through the draft because of Curry, Klay and Draymond. They didn't get there because of all those years they sucked. The point is two teams can say they got their championship core from the draft. None of those teams got those players because they were what's considered a 'tanking' team. Tanking teams have continually been garbage teams. No exception in the last 20 years. The closest one is the Cavs when they tanked for LBJ and they won only because LBJ was a hometown player who came back to them after he was done with the Heat.

Tanking teams tend to become bottom feeding teams because they depend on young players drafted in the lottery to come together and become winners in a losing environment. The norm is that this doesn't happen. Then teams either become treadmills with borderline all stars, or lose players to free agency and finances, or make trades that don't pan out. Teams that sell off assets and become successful usually do it because they get picks that they then manage to flip for more proven players. Again, not tanking and betting on every top pick being a superstar, when the reality is those players tend to end up falling short and a team that didn't give up but ended up with the 13th pick ends up picking a player that thrives and puts them into contention.


And my entire point is that it's easier to be "lucky" drafting a superstar when you have a higher draft pick. Sure you may be able to draft a Kawhi at #15 every decade or so, but you know what also allows you to draft the same Kawhi in a draft? A #1 overall pick, which is a significantly more valuable asset than the #15 (for the sole reason that it's easier to be "lucky" with it).

It's not important to me at all that Dallas weren't a tanking team when they drafted Dirk. It is important to me that tanking would have guaranteed a chance at Dirk and possibly more assets instead of having to hope he drops to your position or trade more assets for him.

Hell, if you had the #1 overall pick in the 2009 draft, you could have traded down for the picks that could end up as Curry, Klay and Draymond.

Many times, tanking teams became bottom feeding teams because those teams had poor management. We don't have that problem and we are actually good at developing talents now. I have the trust in this management that we won't draft a Marvin Bagley over a Luka Doncic if given the chance. That kind of **** is what keeps bottom feeding teams at the bottom for years, not the fact that they had multiple top picks. Also, you think one season of tanking (instead of being a treadmill one which is where we are headed) will destroy this championship culture that was already destroyed when Kawhi left with it?


Losing one year isn't my point. My point is you don't tank a season period. You try. You make your players go out there and have them try to win every game for now. You don't let them feel like you're treating the season as a lost one because they are 2-9 right now. You don't sacrifice games at this point for the sake of developing your bench players, making your starters sit there put up with losing. And you don't sacrifice your better players in a sell off for the sake of making the rest of the players on your team go through losing so you can draft number 3. When you're 5-24 then you can say ok Kyle, what are the chances you want to come back next year when we retool with a pick and a FA. When you've got 10 games left then you tell your starters 'guys it was great that you all tried game in game out but wink wink and your minutes are cut, and you can sit out this game'. That's how you end up being a team that has a bad year, drafts a lotto pick, maybe becomes Dirk or Kobe, and is back into playoffs again next year while that player develops in a winning culture.

The way people talk about 'tanking' isn't about the fact that we are most likely going to end up with a pretty bad record this year. One or two injuries and we can easily end up like GS last year. Hey no problem. What people want here when they say tanking, is to be losers. That doesn't work. When an organization sacrifices winning, and their players who wear their uniform game in game out, early in the season, they will most likely tailspin into becoming perpetual losers. And yes, losing is contagious and let your players take on that role and it will tailspin. Then you ends doing what's done by a lot of teams who aren't outright tanking, just being bottom feeders satisfied with losing, usually, for the sake of not spending any more because the team wasn't winning the year before and hoping they'll end up with a high lotto pick and a special player they can make money off of.


i think most people here aren't talking about losing FVV and Siakam and tanking for good. they are saying the Raps will be bad with FVV and Siakam regardless. I'm on the boat of just letting FVV, Siakam play, work on their games, and let the young guys play. its a development year imho

Most people are on board with trading Lowry and Powell because they are expiring and most valuable to churn for future assets. Lowry is 35 this year - its evident he's not part of any future of the Raps. and the Raps don't have money to get both Lowry and a significant free agent (i.e. lets just say its a C, like John Collins or Jarret Allen for a max like contract because Raps have a need). Lowry would need to take a significant pay cut, like Vets min to stay with the Raps.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#136 » by arbsn » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:22 pm

this BK team is overrated. Reminds me of the BK team that beat us in 2014... super team on paper but couldnt defend and too many alphas (we were also trash that year our 3rd best player was Amir Johnson)
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#137 » by DG88 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:23 pm

Based on 530 projections we still have 77% chance of making the playoffs....as a 7th seed. Does anyone here want to be a 7th seed with not much growth to move higher to compete is the question.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#138 » by MixxSRC » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:26 pm

You gotta get some talent. Free agency, draft, trades. All avenues.
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#139 » by MixxSRC » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:28 pm

arbsn wrote:this BK team is overrated. Reminds me of the BK team that beat us in 2014... super team on paper but couldnt defend and too many alphas (we were also trash that year our 3rd best player was Amir Johnson)


Thats not why BK team in 2014 sucked. Those guys were old af at the end of their careers. Harden is still elite and so is KD
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Re: A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what? 

Post#140 » by KL78192020 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:34 pm

MixxSRC wrote:
arbsn wrote:this BK team is overrated. Reminds me of the BK team that beat us in 2014... super team on paper but couldnt defend and too many alphas (we were also trash that year our 3rd best player was Amir Johnson)


Thats not why BK team in 2014 sucked. Those guys were old af at the end of their careers. Harden is still elite and so is KD


Yea I don't know why people would compare this team to that. Paul Peirce was 36 and KG was 37, a 30 year old Paul Peirce was winning his first Championship at the age of 30. Which is where this core is, nothing like that horrible old nets team.

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