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rapstarter wrote:I love how some people act like the 15th pick is better than a top 5 pick because there were superstars picked at that position. Newsflash: You could have picked Kawhi or Giannis with the first overall pick if you felt strongly, or just trade down. Tanking is the easiest way to accumulate high level asset in this league. And you NEED top asset to compete.

Sure, some franchises suck for a long time, but that's the result of their management being garbage, not an inherent result of tanking.

No man, lets pick two players versus literally 100 in NBA history and make them the standard.

Kawhi has really blinded this place to NBA history and logic with his exception to a title which has now become some golden standard.

the fact that some fans aren't even down with a ONE season tank is mindblowing.....can't even sacrifice one season for the greater good of the next 4-5 seasons

SFour wrote:the fact that some fans aren't even down with a ONE season tank is mindblowing.....can't even sacrifice one season for the greater good of the next 4-5 seasons

maybe we just need to rebrand it as 'organic growth' and giving Kyle a chance to compete for a title again before he retires

As a fan its panic time. As Masai its time to get to work.

SFour wrote:the fact that some fans aren't even down with a ONE season tank is mindblowing.....can't even sacrifice one season for the greater good of the next 4-5 seasons

The reamgm Raptors fanbase will bitch about anything lol.

As for myself, might as well do what they are doing.

If the game is close, let Siakam try and close it. As there will be growing pains, the losses should pile up. Either Siakam develops a closer type of game and the Raptors lottery odds get worse or he doesn't and it gets better.

And for the naysayers, noone actually thought he'd develop into a decent 3 point shooter in his first 2 seasons but he's managed to have a 3pt percentage of 35-37% rounding the last 2 years.

Will he develop it, odds are against it, but it's not impossible.

No point giving it to Lowry to close the game if he's not in the long term plans.

Steelo Green wrote:

Marty_Budda wrote:

Steelo Green wrote:Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.

Bro you’ve said this 100 times over and nobody agrees with you. Maybe it’s time to let go.

Lots have agreed (not that I care either way, again people really care about rgm clout lol).

Where is that winning culture right now?

No more title afterglow and Kyle aging, looks like we are just a 7-11 team.

You need great players to win, not a winning culture, who knew.

The same people quoting Atlanta 07-17 are a failure are the same ones who say we are a success.

If Atlanta had won a championship in that time you’d have a point. But they don’t so that’s why people don’t agree with you. Not because if realgm clout lol. At the end of the day that’s what it’s all about. Winning the final prize. Yet you think okc had it better with Durant even though they won nothing. If you ask any Atlanta or okc fan - “ hey what 7 year run do you prefer. Yours or the raptors?”. Most will say raptors. It’s like saying the Detroit pistons and the Indiana pacers in the early 2000s were similar. It’s ridiculous.

You say culture doesn’t matter? Every champion ever has had winning culture. Lakers last year had winning culture..aka lebron. Gsw have winning culture holding everyone accountable. Spurs had culture. You know who didn’t have winning culture? The okc thunder you love so much. Nobody put Westbrook in check and told him what he needed to do to win. But they sure had talent...congrats to them.

Only thing I agree on is you need mvp level talent to win it all.

We do the same thing as every other team without an MVP level player - try to acquire one.

SFour wrote:the fact that some fans aren't even down with a ONE season tank is mindblowing.....can't even sacrifice one season for the greater good of the next 4-5 seasons

You’ve got people suggesting we trade Lowry, Norm, Siakam which would put us in sh*t tier for the next 5 years. Thats what I have a problem with. It’s a stupid idea.

This year doesn't count.

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C_Money wrote:

SFour wrote:the fact that some fans aren't even down with a ONE season tank is mindblowing.....can't even sacrifice one season for the greater good of the next 4-5 seasons

You’ve got people suggesting we trade Lowry, Norm, Siakam which would put us in sh*t tier for the next 5 years. Thats what I have a problem with. It’s a stupid idea.

Yeah man. People wanting to trade Pascal for worse players and draft picks (which will turn into players probably not as good) is where they lose me. Lowry and norm I’d be okay with moving on from. Build around pascal, Fred, OG and hopefully this years draft pick

C_Money wrote:

SFour wrote:the fact that some fans aren't even down with a ONE season tank is mindblowing.....can't even sacrifice one season for the greater good of the next 4-5 seasons

You’ve got people suggesting we trade Lowry, Norm, Siakam which would put us in sh*t tier for the next 5 years. Thats what I have a problem with. It’s a stupid idea.

Who's suggesting we do all 3? Maybe I missed it but it seems there were two boats people were on:

1) Win now - Trade Siakam plus whatever else to get Harden
2) Rebuilding- Trade Lowry and Powell for picks since they are FA and will likely leave anyway

planetmars wrote:

Steelo Green wrote:

planetmars wrote:
15th pick in the draft can be pretty good.. that's where Kawhi and Giannis were drafted.

And for every Giannis and Kawhi there are 95% of the NBAs finals MVPs who are lottery picks.

NBA finals MVP? That's such a dumb trophy. It's at most a 7 game sample and usually less. Also how many of those picks were drafted by their team since the new CBA was developed (the one with max 5 year contracts so 2011)?

2020 Lebron - nope
2019 Kawhi - nope
2018 Durant - nope
2017 Durant - nope
2016 James - nope
2015 Iggy - nope
2014 Leonard - yup
2013 James - nope
2012 James - nope
2011 Dirk - yup

2 out 10.. that's a 20% success rate. Pretty crappy odds. And the Dirk one doesn't technically count since the CBA came in during the 2011-2012 season.. so really 1 out of 9.

I'll take Tolzman's pick at 15 and enjoy a bit of the playoffs as well.

lmao, you mock a seven game sample as insignificant but then proceed to give a 10 year sample as if that's any better if you want a real sample you should at least go for 30-40......oh wait, that would go into jordan/duncan championships..which doesn't help your narrative

macketeer wrote:

planetmars wrote:

Steelo Green wrote:And for every Giannis and Kawhi there are 95% of the NBAs finals MVPs who are lottery picks.

NBA finals MVP? That's such a dumb trophy. It's at most a 7 game sample and usually less. Also how many of those picks were drafted by their team since the new CBA was developed (the one with max 5 year contracts so 2011)?

2020 Lebron - nope
2019 Kawhi - nope
2018 Durant - nope
2017 Durant - nope
2016 James - nope
2015 Iggy - nope
2014 Leonard - yup
2013 James - nope
2012 James - nope
2011 Dirk - yup

2 out 10.. that's a 20% success rate. Pretty crappy odds. And the Dirk one doesn't technically count since the CBA came in during the 2011-2012 season.. so really 1 out of 9.

I'll take Tolzman's pick at 15 and enjoy a bit of the playoffs as well.

lmao, you mock a seven game sample as insignificant but then proceed to give a 10 year sample as if that's any better if you want a real sample you should at least go for 30-40......oh wait, that would go into jordan/duncan championships..which doesn't help your narrative

Agree about sample size but to be fair. the landscape of the NBA has changed in those last 10 years. It isn't really sexy anymore for a guy to stay on one team for his entire career. And not a lot of stars want to do things on their own like a Dame or giving credit where it's due, Giannis.

macketeer wrote:

planetmars wrote:

Steelo Green wrote:And for every Giannis and Kawhi there are 95% of the NBAs finals MVPs who are lottery picks.

NBA finals MVP? That's such a dumb trophy. It's at most a 7 game sample and usually less. Also how many of those picks were drafted by their team since the new CBA was developed (the one with max 5 year contracts so 2011)?

2020 Lebron - nope
2019 Kawhi - nope
2018 Durant - nope
2017 Durant - nope
2016 James - nope
2015 Iggy - nope
2014 Leonard - yup
2013 James - nope
2012 James - nope
2011 Dirk - yup

2 out 10.. that's a 20% success rate. Pretty crappy odds. And the Dirk one doesn't technically count since the CBA came in during the 2011-2012 season.. so really 1 out of 9.

I'll take Tolzman's pick at 15 and enjoy a bit of the playoffs as well.

lmao, you mock a seven game sample as insignificant but then proceed to give a 10 year sample as if that's any better if you want a real sample you should at least go for 30-40......oh wait, that would go into jordan/duncan championships..which doesn't help your narrative

More so than finals MVP my point actually meant that lottery picks basically have been the leading factor in almost every championship ever except Kawhi, and other than Kobe a top 10 pick.

People are pretending like history isn’t there for us to refer to.

C_Money wrote:

SFour wrote:the fact that some fans aren't even down with a ONE season tank is mindblowing.....can't even sacrifice one season for the greater good of the next 4-5 seasons

You’ve got people suggesting we trade Lowry, Norm, Siakam which would put us in sh*t tier for the next 5 years. Thats what I have a problem with. It’s a stupid idea.

I don't agree with the people that want to blow up the team for a full-on tank....I'm more on board with a mini-tank to add a top 5 pick to the core of FVV-Siakam-OG...that only requires trading Lowry.

I wouldn't trade Siakam, Fred, OG and Malachi.

I would ask Kyle if he would rather be somewhere else and if he says yes...look for a trade for something...

I would look for anything for Norm.

Retool with a high draft pick and run the rest of the core back next season.

Now we either tank or we waste our time spinning our wheels on the treadmill as the Nets win titles. Hope Masai chooses wisely.

rocky_da_best wrote:Agree about sample size but to be fair. the landscape of the NBA has changed in those last 10 years. It isn't really sexy anymore for a guy to stay on one team for his entire career. And not a lot of stars want to do things on their own like a Dame or giving credit where it's due, Giannis.

What's not sexy is playing for a small market or unpopular team like ours. Our best bet is basically accumulating assets through the drafts and hoping for a Dame/Giannis situation or a Kawhi rental one. The easiest and most likely (though not certain) way to do that is by tanking. The biggest thing against tanking is the optics, but our season is already lost and there are no fans in the arenas anyway.

SFour wrote:the fact that some fans aren't even down with a ONE season tank is mindblowing.....can't even sacrifice one season for the greater good of the next 4-5 seasons

It's not like we're asking to "trust the process" for the next couple of years.

This is more of a golden state style of a retool. The moment they lost Durant along with Klay/Steph injuries last year, they didn't make any panic moves to maintain their "winning culture". Took a step back, got a high pick including Minnesota's potential gold mine of a 2021 1st, and are poised to take two steps forward.

Going for that 7-11 no man's land spot this year for the sake of keeping our "winning culture" is going to end up hurting us more long term, especially without any hope of a game changing talent, and a roster mostly filled with low ceiling role players.

macketeer wrote:

planetmars wrote:

Steelo Green wrote:And for every Giannis and Kawhi there are 95% of the NBAs finals MVPs who are lottery picks.

NBA finals MVP? That's such a dumb trophy. It's at most a 7 game sample and usually less. Also how many of those picks were drafted by their team since the new CBA was developed (the one with max 5 year contracts so 2011)?

2020 Lebron - nope
2019 Kawhi - nope
2018 Durant - nope
2017 Durant - nope
2016 James - nope
2015 Iggy - nope
2014 Leonard - yup
2013 James - nope
2012 James - nope
2011 Dirk - yup

2 out 10.. that's a 20% success rate. Pretty crappy odds. And the Dirk one doesn't technically count since the CBA came in during the 2011-2012 season.. so really 1 out of 9.

I'll take Tolzman's pick at 15 and enjoy a bit of the playoffs as well.

lmao, you mock a seven game sample as insignificant but then proceed to give a 10 year sample as if that's any better if you want a real sample you should at least go for 30-40......oh wait, that would go into jordan/duncan championships..which doesn't help your narrative

I went back that far because the point I'm making should be clear. I mean the CBA and player empowerment has changed the NBA landscape incredibly since 2011. You have to see that right?

Davis, Harden, Durant, Lebron, Butler, George (am I missing someone) all left and didn't win a chip with the team that drafted them (Lebron is a weird case, because he came back but that's rare/odd). So the teams that drafted them didn't get that FMP or MVP or best PER in a season, or whatever stat/trophy you want to use.

There will be exceptions like Kawhi and GIannis getting picked at 15 are exceptions. Curry and Dame stayed. Beal wants to stay. Hopefully Giannis and Murray continue to stay. But again these are not the norm.. they are the exception. Just like getting a stud in the 15th pick is an exception, not the norm.

If Doncic, Trae, Tatum, Giannis, Zion win a chip.. I doubt it will be with the team that drafted them. Probably a better chance it won't happen. So you draft a stud.. you better hope and pray they will stay. Or else the tank was for nothing.

History is long in the NBA but circumstances have changed a lot since MJ, Kobe or even Duncan were winning chips.