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Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0

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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#781 » by Kenter16 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 8:06 pm

BilboBanginz wrote:How do we feel about this folks?

Read on Twitter

Not sure it really matters. If anything it strengthens the ties to MLSE.
At this point Canada Basketball is basically ran by MLSE. No opinion either way on that. MLSE has a ton of resources that are helpful.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#782 » by Kenter16 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 8:53 pm

Mattd97 wrote:So 11 and 1 would likely be;
Wiggins
SGA
NAW
Birch
Powell
Boucher
Brooks
Dort
RJ
KO
...Mulder? Oshae? Cojo? Pangos? Clarke? TT? God forbid lyles?

And the one not there but being committed being murray

Check out my list above.
No Lyles, CoJo, TT, Pangos, Clarke or Powell in Vegas at that time.
Can’t find proof that RJ and Olynyk were not there. So I think they were.

It’s unlikely Jamal is the one not in Vegas commitment. I have no idea, but I can’t get there in my head. Too many injuries to lay down a 3 year commitment. If he decided the summer of ‘24 that he wanted to go to the Olympics, they will likely roll out the red carpet and welcome him back into the fold.

I have also been speculating on who was there that may not commit. Nurse said +/- 1 of the Eleven. So, to me, he didn’t get positive vibes from 1 of the attendees. I can’t get there with Chris Boucher. He has always been half in, half out. Which is fine, he was a late bloomer and has an even smaller window to cash in on. To me, he went because Nurse is his NBA coach and he wanted to appease him. Don’t think he’s committed.
Based on the evidence, my core would be - SGA, NAW, Dort, Mulder, Wiggins, Brooks, Birch and Edey. That’s a medal contending core, no doubt. If we do find out that RJ and Olynyk attended and commit, then we are set. Then we have a core that we can definitely win with. These players have minimal contractual road blocks ahead of them.
We won’t really know if this is any more than a theory until the Americup roster is announced.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#783 » by mojo13 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 10:32 pm

Kevin Pangos to the Cavs!


2 year 3.5MM deal with the first year guaranteed. Hopefully there is a path to meaningful minutes in Cleveland and he gets a good chance.
He turned down a reported 2 year $8MM NBA equivalent guaranteed deal from CSKA for this NBA shot.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#784 » by GoRaptors » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:39 am

Kenter16 wrote:
Mattd97 wrote:So 11 and 1 would likely be;
Wiggins
SGA
NAW
Birch
Powell
Boucher
Brooks
Dort
RJ
KO
...Mulder? Oshae? Cojo? Pangos? Clarke? TT? God forbid lyles?

And the one not there but being committed being murray

Check out my list above.
No Lyles, CoJo, TT, Pangos, Clarke or Powell in Vegas at that time.
Can’t find proof that RJ and Olynyk were not there. So I think they were.

It’s unlikely Jamal is the one not in Vegas commitment. I have no idea, but I can’t get there in my head. Too many injuries to lay down a 3 year commitment. If he decided the summer of ‘24 that he wanted to go to the Olympics, they will likely roll out the red carpet and welcome him back into the fold.

I have also been speculating on who was there that may not commit. Nurse said +/- 1 of the Eleven. So, to me, he didn’t get positive vibes from 1 of the attendees. I can’t get there with Chris Boucher. He has always been half in, half out. Which is fine, he was a late bloomer and has an even smaller window to cash in on. To me, he went because Nurse is his NBA coach and he wanted to appease him. Don’t think he’s committed.
Based on the evidence, my core would be - SGA, NAW, Dort, Mulder, Wiggins, Brooks, Birch and Edey. That’s a medal contending core, no doubt. If we do find out that RJ and Olynyk attended and commit, then we are set. Then we have a core that we can definitely win with. These players have minimal contractual road blocks ahead of them.
We won’t really know if this is any more than a theory until the Americup roster is announced.


How would you fill our the remaining two spots given your list of the 10 expected players Jamal Murray would have one spot if available. Beyond that the team would have two main needs. One is a power forward who can score and is not a defensive liability. The other is one more point guard for depth. The team as currently and provisionally constituted might have one too many shooting guards. Wiggins might have to play some power forward for this team regardless which could also affect the depth at small forward to a degree.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#785 » by Hair Canada » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:17 am

GoRaptors wrote:
Kenter16 wrote:
Mattd97 wrote:So 11 and 1 would likely be;
Wiggins
SGA
NAW
Birch
Powell
Boucher
Brooks
Dort
RJ
KO
...Mulder? Oshae? Cojo? Pangos? Clarke? TT? God forbid lyles?

And the one not there but being committed being murray

Check out my list above.
No Lyles, CoJo, TT, Pangos, Clarke or Powell in Vegas at that time.
Can’t find proof that RJ and Olynyk were not there. So I think they were.

It’s unlikely Jamal is the one not in Vegas commitment. I have no idea, but I can’t get there in my head. Too many injuries to lay down a 3 year commitment. If he decided the summer of ‘24 that he wanted to go to the Olympics, they will likely roll out the red carpet and welcome him back into the fold.

I have also been speculating on who was there that may not commit. Nurse said +/- 1 of the Eleven. So, to me, he didn’t get positive vibes from 1 of the attendees. I can’t get there with Chris Boucher. He has always been half in, half out. Which is fine, he was a late bloomer and has an even smaller window to cash in on. To me, he went because Nurse is his NBA coach and he wanted to appease him. Don’t think he’s committed.
Based on the evidence, my core would be - SGA, NAW, Dort, Mulder, Wiggins, Brooks, Birch and Edey. That’s a medal contending core, no doubt. If we do find out that RJ and Olynyk attended and commit, then we are set. Then we have a core that we can definitely win with. These players have minimal contractual road blocks ahead of them.
We won’t really know if this is any more than a theory until the Americup roster is announced.


How would you fill our the remaining two spots given your list of the 10 expected players Jamal Murray would have one spot if available. Beyond that the team would have two main needs. One is a power forward who can score and is not a defensive liability. The other is one more point guard for depth. The team as currently and provisionally constituted might have one too many shooting guards. Wiggins might have to play some power forward for this team regardless which could also affect the depth at small forward to a degree.


That's kind of a dream team and I have a hard time believing we'll see all of these given what we've seen happen time and time again despite the best intentions of many. But if we assume these 10 are in, then if Murray is available we're all covered at PG. Even if not, I think SGA and NAW can hold the position well. Could always also bring in Pangos if he's available. And if not him, then Co-Jo probably deserves this spot.

As for a "power forward who can score and is not a defensive liability", if Boucher is indeed out then I wouldn't mind seeing any of Clarke, Brissett, Powell, or Lyles in that role (just a reminder that in this dream team scenario we're talking the 10-12 man who gets sparse minutes off the bench and might not even play in tight games, with Olynyk and Wiggins playing most of the minutes at the 4).
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#786 » by Kenter16 » Thu Sep 9, 2021 5:48 am

Hair Canada wrote:
GoRaptors wrote:
Kenter16 wrote:Check out my list above.
No Lyles, CoJo, TT, Pangos, Clarke or Powell in Vegas at that time.
Can’t find proof that RJ and Olynyk were not there. So I think they were.

It’s unlikely Jamal is the one not in Vegas commitment. I have no idea, but I can’t get there in my head. Too many injuries to lay down a 3 year commitment. If he decided the summer of ‘24 that he wanted to go to the Olympics, they will likely roll out the red carpet and welcome him back into the fold.

I have also been speculating on who was there that may not commit. Nurse said +/- 1 of the Eleven. So, to me, he didn’t get positive vibes from 1 of the attendees. I can’t get there with Chris Boucher. He has always been half in, half out. Which is fine, he was a late bloomer and has an even smaller window to cash in on. To me, he went because Nurse is his NBA coach and he wanted to appease him. Don’t think he’s committed.
Based on the evidence, my core would be - SGA, NAW, Dort, Mulder, Wiggins, Brooks, Birch and Edey. That’s a medal contending core, no doubt. If we do find out that RJ and Olynyk attended and commit, then we are set. Then we have a core that we can definitely win with. These players have minimal contractual road blocks ahead of them.
We won’t really know if this is any more than a theory until the Americup roster is announced.


How would you fill our the remaining two spots given your list of the 10 expected players Jamal Murray would have one spot if available. Beyond that the team would have two main needs. One is a power forward who can score and is not a defensive liability. The other is one more point guard for depth. The team as currently and provisionally constituted might have one too many shooting guards. Wiggins might have to play some power forward for this team regardless which could also affect the depth at small forward to a degree.


That's kind of a dream team and I have a hard time believing we'll see all of these given what we've seen happen time and time again despite the best intentions of many. But if we assume these 10 are in, then if Murray is available we're all covered at PG. Even if not, I think SGA and NAW can hold the position well. Could always also bring in Pangos if he's available. And if not him, then Co-Jo probably deserves this spot.

As for a "power forward who can score and is not a defensive liability", if Boucher is indeed out then I wouldn't mind seeing any of Clarke, Brissett, Powell, or Lyles in that role (just a reminder that in this dream team scenario we're talking the 10-12 man who gets sparse minutes off the bench and might not even play in tight games, with Olynyk and Wiggins playing most of the minutes at the 4).

Ya, I agree. It is really hard to imagine having all these guys show up at once. There is just simply no precedent.
It’s only hope right now and the belief that Nick Nurse got a level of commitment from these guys that made him want to extend his contract.
The same obstacles will still be in players paths. Large time commitments during short off seasons and tons of travel. Brazil next summer and Japan the summer after. These aren’t weekend trips, it’s close to 40,000km in two summers.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#787 » by mojo13 » Thu Sep 9, 2021 6:33 am

It’s a pipe dream at this point fellas. But if you want to keep trying to kick the football I’m not gonna stop you. It’s all just wishing until we actually see who shows up at camp next summer. And more importantly the next World Cup camp (which certainly won’t be the same 12 guys). They talked the same crap last time around and the cycle before that. I can dig out articles of Triano singing the same song.

Im turning to the November World Cup Qualfiers. Pretty sure I can count on the Scrubbs, Keane, Morgan and Klassen. Hopefully we see some of Ejim, Wiltjer, Alexander, Robertson as well. I’ll be tickled if Pierre and Shayok are released to play and if either of the Ennis bros are able to play. Maybe an in-shape Bennett too.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#788 » by Kenter16 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:15 pm

mojo13 wrote:It’s a pipe dream at this point fellas. But if you want to keep trying to kick the football I’m not gonna stop you. It’s all just wishing until we actually see who shows up at camp next summer. And more importantly the next World Cup camp (which certainly won’t be the same 12 guys). They talked the same crap last time around and the cycle before that. I can dig out articles of Triano singing the same song.

Im turning to the November World Cup Qualfiers. Pretty sure I can count on the Scrubbs, Keane, Morgan and Klassen. Hopefully we see some of Ejim, Wiltjer, Alexander, Robertson as well. I’ll be tickled if Pierre and Shayok are released to play and if either of the Ennis bros are able to play. Maybe an in-shape Bennett too.


I get the skepticism, I am not too far from you here.
But, glass half full look - Triano said that in 2012. For the 2013 Americup we had everyone, except Nash and Macgloire, who were not going to play. Bennett was also not included because of a shoulder injury.
We had Cojo, Nicholson, TT, Andy Rautins and Joel Anthony. This was the best turnout we had to date. Problem is, they bombed! We didn't qualify for the 2014 World cup. So we didn't see what our roster would have looked like for that WC.
Then, in 2015 (Yup, still hurts), we again had a massive turn out. Only TT was missing. Lets no re-hash this one.
2016 in Manila, TT was back, but there were some sour grapes and hurt feelings from 2015 that led to a low turnout.

My point here, is its not much of a stretch to say that Triano got a 4 year commitment from his key players. The results just were not there to require a 4 year commitment. If we qualify for WC 2014 and Venezuela didn't happen, we would have seen the commitment. When he said it we had 6 NBA players. He got 4 (Cojo, TT, Nicholson, Joel Anthony) to commit for the Olympic cycle.

Nurse was quoted as saying he invited 15 players to Vegas, 11 came. That means that 11 guys are willing to commit. If you look at the 'probable 11' there won't be contractual situations getting in the way for the next couple seasons. The Americup and the 2023 WC are going to be played in August/September. There is reason to be positive here. Commitment has been there in the past and due to the sheer number of NBA players we have, the odds are in our favour.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#789 » by ItsDanger » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:28 pm

If the players are serious about next Olympics, they should try to qualify before that. Means much shorter commitment periods. Other than the US, the Americas are weak. A full turnout should mean 2nd place and a spot in Olympics.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#790 » by Boselecta » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:35 pm

Canada is only as good as there 2nd team. Forget having our top 12 NBA guys because this will never happen unless its the Olympics or something. Outside of the top 12 Canadian NBA players whos the next 12 realistic options? I think this will give us a better idea of who will be playing in these qualifying games.

Hopefully the Canadian talent pool keeps increasing so even our second team would be pretty dangerous one of these days.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#791 » by Kenter16 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:26 pm

ItsDanger wrote:If the players are serious about next Olympics, they should try to qualify before that. Means much shorter commitment periods. Other than the US, the Americas are weak. A full turnout should mean 2nd place and a spot in Olympics.


The only way to qualify for the Olympics directly is through the World cup in 2023. The Americup next year is a stand alone tournament and will not determine any world cup or Olympic qualifications.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#792 » by Kenter16 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:29 pm

Boselecta wrote:Canada is only as good as there 2nd team. Forget having our top 12 NBA guys because this will never happen unless its the Olympics or something. Outside of the top 12 Canadian NBA players whos the next 12 realistic options? I think this will give us a better idea of who will be playing in these qualifying games.

Hopefully the Canadian talent pool keeps increasing so even our second team would be pretty dangerous one of these days.



This is true only because the Americup next year does not provide Canada any future qualification opportunities. It is a stand alone tournament.
The qualification for the World cup will happen during the NBA season (for the most part). There will only be a couple games that NBA players will be able to participate in.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#793 » by ItsDanger » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:36 pm

Kenter16 wrote:
ItsDanger wrote:If the players are serious about next Olympics, they should try to qualify before that. Means much shorter commitment periods. Other than the US, the Americas are weak. A full turnout should mean 2nd place and a spot in Olympics.


The only way to qualify for the Olympics directly is through the World cup in 2023. The Americup next year is a stand alone tournament and will not determine any world cup or Olympic qualifications.

Top 2 Americas qualify in that though I think.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#794 » by Kenter16 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:56 pm

ItsDanger wrote:
Kenter16 wrote:
ItsDanger wrote:If the players are serious about next Olympics, they should try to qualify before that. Means much shorter commitment periods. Other than the US, the Americas are weak. A full turnout should mean 2nd place and a spot in Olympics.


The only way to qualify for the Olympics directly is through the World cup in 2023. The Americup next year is a stand alone tournament and will not determine any world cup or Olympic qualifications.

Top 2 Americas qualify in that though I think.

No, Americup is a stand alone tournament now
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#795 » by Boselecta » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:05 pm

Kenter16 wrote:
ItsDanger wrote:
Kenter16 wrote:
The only way to qualify for the Olympics directly is through the World cup in 2023. The Americup next year is a stand alone tournament and will not determine any world cup or Olympic qualifications.

Top 2 Americas qualify in that though I think.

No, Americup is a stand alone tournament now


So what's the motivation for any top teams to participate in the Americup? I was thinking there would at least be World cup qualification
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#796 » by mojo13 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:08 pm

Kenter16 wrote:
mojo13 wrote:It’s a pipe dream at this point fellas. But if you want to keep trying to kick the football I’m not gonna stop you. It’s all just wishing until we actually see who shows up at camp next summer. And more importantly the next World Cup camp (which certainly won’t be the same 12 guys). They talked the same crap last time around and the cycle before that. I can dig out articles of Triano singing the same song.

Im turning to the November World Cup Qualfiers. Pretty sure I can count on the Scrubbs, Keane, Morgan and Klassen. Hopefully we see some of Ejim, Wiltjer, Alexander, Robertson as well. I’ll be tickled if Pierre and Shayok are released to play and if either of the Ennis bros are able to play. Maybe an in-shape Bennett too.


I get the skepticism, I am not too far from you here.
But, glass half full look - Triano said that in 2012. For the 2013 Americup we had everyone, except Nash and Macgloire, who were not going to play. Bennett was also not included because of a shoulder injury.
We had Cojo, Nicholson, TT, Andy Rautins and Joel Anthony. This was the best turnout we had to date. Problem is, they bombed! We didn't qualify for the 2014 World cup. So we didn't see what our roster would have looked like for that WC.
Then, in 2015 (Yup, still hurts), we again had a massive turn out. Only TT was missing. Lets no re-hash this one.
2016 in Manila, TT was back, but there were some sour grapes and hurt feelings from 2015 that led to a low turnout.

My point here, is its not much of a stretch to say that Triano got a 4 year commitment from his key players. The results just were not there to require a 4 year commitment. If we qualify for WC 2014 and Venezuela didn't happen, we would have seen the commitment. When he said it we had 6 NBA players. He got 4 (Cojo, TT, Nicholson, Joel Anthony) to commit for the Olympic cycle.

Nurse was quoted as saying he invited 15 players to Vegas, 11 came. That means that 11 guys are willing to commit. If you look at the 'probable 11' there won't be contractual situations getting in the way for the next couple seasons. The Americup and the 2023 WC are going to be played in August/September. There is reason to be positive here. Commitment has been there in the past and due to the sheer number of NBA players we have, the odds are in our favour.



Ok - maybe I was a little harsh there. My skepticism is not necessarily about turnout. I am pretty sure we will never get our best 12 together EVER. But I thought the dismal turnout of 2019 was more an aberration - I always thought we'd get 6-7 NBA guys not 2. The Olympic Qualifiers I thought was pretty good turnout - it just had a few fatal flaws that if any one was corrected we'd would have qualified (and maybe even had a good shot a a medal). Those flaws were 1) no bigs (or the wrong ones) 2) no decent PG - CoJo was trash and if we had Pangos instead we'd have been fine, and 3) a terrible prep period (just a couple exhibition games was all that was needed). We had good enough turnout this summer but is was bungled by those three things.

Going forward, I'm actually a bit of an optimist. I see the progression but it is more about the ever growing talent pool than these words of consistency and chemistry by Nurse and Canada Basketball. I'm skeptical about the 2022 AmeriCup as it is such a useless tournament. I'm more interested in the two 2022 WC Qualifier summer windows (4 games total) in early July and late August and the NBA turnout we get there (I think it will be good - as the fire should be lit under their butts). And I think we'll have decent turnout in the WCs in 2023 - maybe half our best 12.

What I am most skeptical about is that there will be any consistency. I still think our best guys will only show up when it is convenient. Any little injuries or free agents are out. Some will bail just from club pressure (Brooks, Clarke, Brissett this summer) Anyone staring at a big contract extension is likely out. But when we have 20-ish NBA players - we should be able to get 6-8 together at any time. Will they be the right players? will there be any consistency? Will there be any chemistry? Will there be enough prep time?

This is what I am skeptical about and continue to think our path to success is when we have just so many good players that when 1/3rd or a 1/2 show up, practice for a week and they are still good enough to win against most top 10 nations.
Or perhaps we get lucky and the stars align and we get 4 or 5 of our best guys at the same time (Murray, SGA, Barrett) AND the right complimentary pieces around them,

Wiggins and Barrett (with a young NAW) was almost enough - they just didn't have the right pieces around them. Merely one of Birch, Olynyk or even Pangos I think would have been enough. Maybe just Boucher or TT would have been enough?
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#797 » by Kenter16 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:08 pm

Boselecta wrote:
Kenter16 wrote:
ItsDanger wrote:Top 2 Americas qualify in that though I think.

No, Americup is a stand alone tournament now


So what's the motivation for any top teams to participate in the Americup? I was thinking there would at least be World cup qualification

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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#798 » by UcanUwill » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:13 pm

Kenter16 wrote:
Boselecta wrote:
Kenter16 wrote:No, Americup is a stand alone tournament now


So what's the motivation for any top teams to participate in the Americup? I was thinking there would at least be World cup qualification

Pride


Will USA even participate, they only saw Americup as a qualifying tournament, and when they were qualified already, they didnt even participate in the past. Which I find crazy, because I dont get how teams from AMericas dont care for their continental award. I mean in Europe everyone cares about Eurobasket and being a champion of Europe, why dont you westerns dont care about that? Thats weird to me.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#799 » by mojo13 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:21 pm

Kenter16 wrote:
Boselecta wrote:
Kenter16 wrote:No, Americup is a stand alone tournament now


So what's the motivation for any top teams to participate in the Americup? I was thinking there would at least be World cup qualification

Pride



Aug 25 and 29 are the second summer window of WC Qualifier games. The Americup goes from 2 to 11 September 2022.

So you could easily have one team do both. But I expect a number of key NBA players who show up for the WC Qualifier games, bow out for the Americup and we work in the next tier of players.

Or perhaps they go with a completely different team of the the guys at camp who didn't make the Top 12 of the Qualifier team?
The schedule is not out for the Americup so we don't know how many games are to be played. that will factor in.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0 

Post#800 » by mojo13 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:24 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
Kenter16 wrote:
Boselecta wrote:
So what's the motivation for any top teams to participate in the Americup? I was thinking there would at least be World cup qualification

Pride


Will USA even participate, they only saw Americup as a qualifying tournament, and when they were qualified already, they didnt even participate in the past. Which I find crazy, because I dont get how teams from AMericas dont care for their continental award. I mean in Europe everyone cares about Eurobasket and being a champion of Europe, why dont you westerns dont care about that? Thats weird to me.



Why do Europeans care? That's weird to me.... :)
Maybe the South Americans care about the AmeriCup. But USA/Canada really don't. I don't know why - perhaps because everyone knows who the best at bball is around here. The champ is already settled if the USA took the tournament seriously. Maybe there is limited intra country bball rivalries in the Americas. Less regional nationalism maybe? Europe still holds on to centuries long grudges...


The USA played the last AmeriCup (I think FIBA makes it mandatory now). They just fielded a squad of G-League players like they did for the WC Qualifiers. Those guys still enjoy putting on a Team USA jersey when they get a chance.
USA still went undefeated and won gold over Argentina - so whatever....

It wouldn't take Canada much to show up with a decent team and win the Americup if they want to kick things off right.

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